Fall Cycle Plan Discussion

[B5150]

It’s usually not my style to ask for opinions regarding androgen cycles, but I am a little bored right now and would not mind opening some dialogue.

I am planning for an ~8 week cycle this fall. I just got done getting nicely leaned out this summer and I am looking to put on some more LBM. I’m not looking to discuss diet or training in this thread, as it is a separate issue, though somewhat (actually very much so) relative to my results, not the topic I’m looking to discuss here.

I have all of the androgens and nolva on hand as we speak so this is not a dream cycle discussion, but rather a cycle for consideration. I was thinking along the lines of the following:

Week 1-8: 4AD @ 600-800mgs/d* (transdermal)
Week 1-8: 3-alpha @ 100-200mgs/d** (transdermal)
Week 3&4, 7&8: M1T @20mgs/d*** (solution)

* I want to go high on this so as to net as much test as I can. I am actually in the process of considering Synovex-H test base conversion but the 4AD is a sure thing as I have plenty of powder. I would go very high concentration of 4AD with T-Gel.

** I want to do this for two reasons; keep estrogen reduced if at all possible and since I’m running just 4AD for the first two weeks it seems like a decent idea. I thought about 1-T but I (know) don’t think it will reduce/counter estrogen. The only thought is that it may not be wise to run it for the full 8 weeks. Which brings me to an alternate option; run the 4AD without the 3-alpha for the first 4 weeks, then during my first break between two weekers of M1T (week 5) run the 3-alpha with the 4AD for the remainder (4 weeks) of 8 weeks. By then I should be about as bloated as can be expected. BTW… I have no history of gyno, but do have nolva on hand.

*** I have run this ramped up from 20-50mgs/d for 4 weeks and a couple other times at ~35mgs/d for 4 weeks. So this is still open and TBD regarding dose.

Quite a few cycles under my belt. Have been as bulked up as 215-220lbs in the 16%++ ballpark and have just completed my summer long cutting and dipped under 10% at 185-187lbs. I know diet has a significant role in fat:lbm gain and this is a given. But I will not get fat ever again for the sake of mass. Oh…BTW I am an old man of 39 years. :rasp:

Anyway, as I stated, I’m just looking for some discussion. I usually research and evaluate/experiment first hand, but would enjoy the dialogue.

 

[SJA]

M1T/4AD is one of my favorites for bulking. But 2 weeks did not seem to be as good as 3 or 4 straight. I ran it at 20mg. My workout partner has also experimented and seemed to do better at 3-4 weeks as compared to 2 weeks as well. He usually uses 20mg, but tried 25 last time and had less sides (got me??).

I also tried 2 on 2 off X 3 with M1T (20mg)/4AD (800mg) and by the third cycle, I seemed to plateau on gains and just have sides (water retention, bloat, lethargy, no appetite).

As for 3-alpha. I tried it once (orally) and didn't notice much at all. I was expecting something in the way of 1,4 but to no avail. As far as estrogen suppression...I don't have the knowledge to discuss intelligently (as if I ever do :think: )


The way that you respond, I was hoping that you would go for M14ADD on this round :whip: :hammer:

 

[cookmic5]

You know more than I, but for what it's worth, I think running the 3-alpha in the weeks between M1T would be best. I say this because the worst week of training I ever undertook was the week begining the second week of an M1T 2on 2off 2on cycle. Although, admittedly, this was back in the "you can do PCT in the two weeks between" days :hammer: , so the fact that you're running 4AD inbetween may change things. I can't say it will or won't because I haven't had the inclination to try M1T since. Either way though, I imagine having something else boosting you're strength in those weeks off will do some good if nothing more than psychologically.

cm5

Oh, BTW, what are you doing messing with this stuff old man, leave this to us young punks that know everything, are indestructable and will live forever (JK)

 

[B5150]

M1T/4AD is one of my favorites for bulking. But 2 weeks did not seem to be as good as 3 or 4 straight.

This was my impression on all of mine as well.

I ran it at 20mg. My workout partner has also experimented and seemed to do better at 3-4 weeks as compared to 2 weeks as well. He usually uses 20mg, but tried 25 last time and had less sides (got me??).

I'm with you. I increased dosages as well and did not increase lethargy...I even ran it solo.

I also tried 2 on 2 off X 3 with M1T (20mg)/4AD (800mg) and by the third cycle, I seemed to plateau on gains and just have sides (water retention, bloat, lethargy, no appetite).

Gotcha...you run that much 4AD?

I don't have the knowledge to discuss intelligently (as if I ever do :think: )

One of us has to be the moron...no? :hammer:

The way that you respond, I was hoping that you would go for M14ADD on this round :whip: :hammer:

I would rather do what I know works on this one...but it may be in the cards in the future. I mean what's more grams of powders. I'm thinking of mounting my rotating spice rack in my freezer :blink:

 

[Sgt. Ownage]

I know it's a well known fact to run 4ad with m1t to reduce sides, but does the 4ad actually add any gains? I might be drug tested and I don't feel like failing for taking a legal product.

 

[B5150]

You know more than I, but for what it's worth, I think running the 3-alpha in the weeks between M1T would be best. I say this because the worst week of training I ever undertook was the week begining the second week of an M1T 2on 2off 2on cycle. Although, admittedly, this was back in the "you can do PCT in the two weeks between" days :hammer: , so the fact that you're running 4AD inbetween may change things. I can't say it will or won't because I haven't had the inclination to try M1T since. Either way though, I imagine having something else boosting you're strength in those weeks off will do some good if nothing more than psychologically.

cm5

I'm with you.

Oh, BTW, what are you doing messing with this stuff old man, leave this to us young punks that know everything, are indestructable and will live forever (JK)

:trout:

 

[SJA]

I know it's a well known fact to run 4ad with m1t to reduce sides, but does the 4ad actually add any gains? I might be drug tested and I don't feel like failing for taking a legal product.

At our age, the one gain which is best from 4AD is Libido!!! :thumbsup:

 

[B5150]

** I want to do this for two reasons; keep estrogen reduced if at all possible and since I’m running just 4AD for the first two weeks it seems like a decent idea. I thought about 1-T but I (know) don’t think it will reduce/counter estrogen. The only thought is that it may not be wise to run it for the full 8 weeks. Which brings me to an alternate option; run the 4AD without the 3-alpha for the first 4 weeks, then during my first break between two weekers of M1T (week 5) run the 3-alpha with the 4AD for the remainder (4 weeks) of 8 weeks. By then I should be about as bloated as can be expected. BTW… I have no history of gyno, but do have nolva on hand.

Any thoughts...

 

[Cardinal]

I am not sure if anyone will be able to give a definitive answer as to what kind of estrogen reduction you will get from using the 3-alpha as planned. Regardless of theory, there doesn't seem to be much (enough) user feedback using it in that capacity. I tend to value that type of feedback more than what is 'supposed' to occur on paper.

But if you wanted to be fairly certain of the issue, you could always start some arimidex precycle(or another AI, femara might be a bit overkill) and continue running it for as long as you wanted into the cycle. Something like .25mg/ED. Or alternatively, you could try 10mg Nolva/ED.

Edit: read ** wrong first time.

Have you looked into 4AD cyp? Sledge may have more soonish. Given that you want to use the most possible and for 8 weeks(about long enough to warrant a cyp ester, no?), that might be a better way to approach it.

It looks like an interesting cycle plan overall, regardless of what you finally decide to run.

Edit: thought of something else. I assume it would be completely redundant and no reason to do it this cycle, but have you ever considered combining 3-alpha trans and M5AA (preworkout only, whatever is an effective dose for you). I am just curious if it would amplify the response any.

 

[B5150]

I am not sure if anyone will be able to give a definitive answer as to what kind of estrogen reduction you will get from using the 3-alpha as planned. Regardless of theory, there doesn't seem to be much (enough) user feedback using it in that capacity. I tend to value that type of feedback more than what is 'supposed' to occur on paper.

But if you wanted to be fairly certain of the issue, you could always start some arimidex precycle(or another AI, femara might be a bit overkill) and continue running it for as long as you wanted into the cycle. Something like .25mg/ED. Or alternatively, you could try 10mg Nolva/ED.

Edit: read ** wrong first time.

Not real concerned about the estrogen, just thought that having the potential for quite the high level, having a androgenic/dht could be complementary...or possibly counteract/offset. Only in the event of gyno would I really want an AI per se.

Have you looked into 4AD cyp? Sledge may have more soonish. Given that you want to use the most possible and for 8 weeks(about long enough to warrant a cyp ester, no?), that might be a better way to approach it.

Have at moments considered pinning...probably won't. :think: Have thought of trying some test base conversion in trans in place of all that 4AD. But that is a chemistry experiment in itself.

It looks like an interesting cycle plan overall, regardless of what you finally decide to run.

still developing ideas via brainstorms and board input.

Edit: thought of something else. I assume it would be completely redundant and no reason to do it this cycle, but have you ever considered combining 3-alpha trans and M5AA (preworkout only, whatever is an effective dose for you). I am just curious if it would amplify the response any.

Don't know. I have used it at about 60mg/d with M-D and it was quite decent for hardening up. I have yet to try 3-alpha...I'm a one at a time evaluator, so as to know what is doing what. I'm hoping that the 3-alpha lives up to what I have heard it to.

Still brainstorming,

Thanks Cardinal

 

[SCORPIO]

As far as the 4ad and estrogenic sides, dont know about the 3alpha....I have read that Viratase (molecular nutrition) is good for combating bloat, (suicide inhibitor) formastat/formastane also come to mind and will prolly do a better job at keeping bloat down. I remember reading that Wardog ran 1200mg 4ad a day dermal with Viratase, while cutting and got little to no bloat. You can prolly do a search on that. You can find formastane/formastat at 1fast or here for info:

http://physicalenhancement.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=23&products_id=599&osCsid=09c66b253d12202a6418a0ed4cc071a3

 

[supersoldier]

Here's my real concern for you, as I'm going through it right now: 3-Alpha with M1T and 4AD will be EXTREMELY androgenic. I'm using 4AD-cyp, M1T, and M5AA at the moment, which is very similar. My acne right now is HORRIBLE, even while using 8-12g of B5 powder/day, washing with 2% salycylic, and using a 10% Benzol Pyroxide cream with an oil-free moisturizer, up to 3X/day. It's even worse on my back, and I shaved my chest to go to an outdoor DMB concert last week, now my chest is also breaking out horribly as it grows back. Also this combo is the ONLY one that has ever made my hair look thin, and I've used and combined just about everything legal as of now. And I'm only 21.

Aside from that, the 3-Alpha and subsequent DHT conversion should control the estrogen/bloat, keeping you very hard. Running nolva the entire time should prevent gyno, while not hindering gains, as it will not really lower total estrogen/estradiol to any significant degree.

And somebody suggested M1,4. As far as I'm concerned, M1,4 at 100mg/day+ is the ****!!! :thumbsup: It would also stack very nicely with 3-alpha and 4AD. I'd also run about 20mg/day nolva with either one of these stacks, just in case. You can never be too safe when it comes to growing tits. :hammer:

Good luck bro! :cheers:

 

[meathead1987]

SS, you're only 21??? how old were you when you started? I was under the impression you were in your early 30's, dont ask me why...

 

[supersoldier]

SS, you're only 21??? how old were you when you started? I was under the impression you were in your early 30's, dont ask me why...

Started when I was 20, with T1-pro. Started my first M1T cycle right before my 21st B-day.

As for thinking I'm older... I get that all the time. It must be because I'm so mature for my age ... :rant: :drunk: :think:

 

[B5150]

And somebody suggested M1,4. As far as I'm concerned, M1,4 at 100mg/day+ is the ****!!! :thumbsup:

You think more so than a hefty dosed M1T/4AD cycle (aside from sides)?

 

[SJA]

You think more so than a hefty dosed M1T/4AD cycle (aside from sides)?

Depends on how you respond...and as I had mentioned....IMO you would respond very well to that compound. :hammer:

 

[B5150]

Depends on how you respond...and as I had mentioned....IMO you would respond very well to that compound. :hammer:

I'm waiting to hear how you do with it :rant:

I have just about all the "spices" a spice rack should/could have, but if M1,4 will be the (mine or your's) bulking "spice of life" than I can always make room on the rack. Or get another rack :thumbsup:

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

ss what are your stats? I hear about your cycles a lot. just wanted to know if these cycles have made you huge.

 

[B5150]

After some more review I am narrowing down my plan to look like this:

Weeks 1-6: 1-T 400mg trans
Weeks 1-6: 4AD 400mg trans
Weeks 1-4: M1T 20-30mg

Some reasoning behind this is the following; I have all the ingredients on hand. I was going to go very high dose 4AD to elicit a high test conversion, but have reconsdidered that strategy. Basically if I want test I should just use test. I have considered my response to M1T alone in regard to facial bloat and feel that combining it with a ton of 4AD will only compound matters in that regard. I have run M1T solo for 4 weeks before and was able to tolerate the sides rather well, so 400mg of 4AD should make for a more comfortable go of it. Will still adjust according to facial and bodily appearance.

I have reconsidered the 3alpha and will not use it this cycle. It is best suited for a cutting cycle. I get plenty strong on M1T and 1T/4AD, and my goals are not really for strength as much as LBM. So with the desire to run a six week cycle I decided to make 1T/4AD the base of it and drop the M1T after 4 weeks.

I like six weeks cycles for a few reasons, but in this case it is in relation to timing of post cycle and subsequent re-cutting that is planned for the next coming spring. I also like to coordinate my cycles to my periodization type of training. I will be two weeks into a period of training that I will run for a total of about 10 weeks, this gives me two weeks pre cycle, 6 weeks on cycle and 2 weeks post cycle, followed by a rest period.

Anyway, that is enough rambling for a while. I enjoy the discussion, just for the sake of discussion. Thanks.

 

[SJA]

This will be a good "Test" LOL

 

[ABiLiTY]

b5150 how much do you weigh?

I was about to start a similar cycle on monday. a 4 week, m1t, m5aa, and super 1+. I was concerned with estrogen conversion, i was thinkning about running nolva 10mg's throughout the cycle.

I also have had a problems with lower back tightness on m1t cycles, so i might dose as low as 5mg's.

I will probably start with 10mg's and drop to 5mg's if the tightness is to much after two weeks, by the the super 1+ should kick in nicely.

 

[bioman]

My only suggestion is to run hcg the entire 8 weeks at 100iu's/ day or at least the last 4 weeks. It made a big difference in terms of pct, mood, gains for me. It was the only M1T cycle where I can honestly say I felt really good the entire time.

 

[B5150]

This will be a good "Test" LOL

This is the best you could do...your slipping :trout:
I did not consider/include all of the cyclo-diol I love to blast up my nose throughout my workouts :twisted:

b5150 how much do you weigh?

stats at top of thread

My only suggestion is to run hcg the entire 8 weeks at 100iu's/ day or at least the last 4 weeks. It made a big difference in terms of pct, mood, gains for me. It was the only M1T cycle where I can honestly say I felt really good the entire time.

this is an area that I have just begun researching. I have very little testicular shrinkage or other significant diminished libido issues while on (anything) androgens. Those that stereotypicaly are supposed to diminish the lidido really don't (for me). But it could be the age and natural decline that makes in un-noticeable to me. But then again it is not a major concern. The 4AD does jump start it even at a low/moderate dose. The mood issue would be of interest though, as it does do a significant fluctation during the first few days and then again PCT. I keep gains pretty well. Thanks for the input.