M4OHN and...?

Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
I'm going to start my first PH cycle and the base of it will be M4OHN.
My goals are to gain lean mass with fewest sides as possible.

What I'm considering are:
4AD
1 Test
1,4 Andro

The most interesting product that i found and that I'd like to try is Dermabolics S1+
Any comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Also, I dont want to do a too suppressing cycle and a consequently heavy PCT, as I will continue bulking (I've a VERY LOW BF%), so i want that 6oxo and creatine + no2 will be enogh.
 

cr4ytonic

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
You should do either m4ohn OR 1-test/4ad, for a 1st cycle - you will good results from either, better from the 1-test/4ad. You will need to do nolva for PCT if you do the 1-test/4ad.
 
CDB

CDB

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
You should do either m4ohn OR 1-test/4ad, for a 1st cycle - you will good results from either, better from the 1-test/4ad. You will need to do nolva for PCT if you do the 1-test/4ad.
I agree. Important point: neither MOHN nor 1 testosterone are prohormones, they're steroids. A proper PCT is necessary for every cycle, which means nolvadex or clomid, or a combo of the two. They're so ridiculously cheap it's insane not to use them. I wouldn't consider MOHN to be a base for any cycle as of yet until it's been used more in conjuntion with other PHs. The 1-test/4AD is probably your best bet, it's kind of like using a test base and throwing the 1-test over it. There is a question though as to whether or not the 4AD converts to testosterone in any effective way or if it's anabolic itself. Either way that cycle is common, simple and effective.

And no matter what you do you're going to have work a proper pct in, or most if not all of you bulking gains can be lost.
 
T-Bone

T-Bone

Banned
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
M4OHN isn't used for bulking. So don't use that until your ready to cut up. Also, Nolva and Clomid are illegal substances. There seems to be some confusion of that for a lot of people. They think they are "supplements". I don't understand where they get that from, but they are illegal to posses without a presciption.
 
Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
You should do either m4ohn OR 1-test/4ad, for a 1st cycle - you will good results from either, better from the 1-test/4ad. You will need to do nolva for PCT if you do the 1-test/4ad.
Thank you. This is a constructive answer.
I already have bought m4ohn so i'll do that for first cycle. And later i'll do the S1+ (i really like the idea of not eating that stuff and to not use other methylated). And i'll buy nolva for that pct.

After how many months do you suggest me to start the 1-test/4ad cycle?
I'm going to run m4ohn at pretty low dosage splitted every 4h for 6 weeks, then 4-5 weeks of 6oxo as PCT. I always take milk thristle etc. I thought to start the second cycle in november or december. It can have some sides and it should suppress me much more than m4ohn.
 

cr4ytonic

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
Time off = time on at a minimum, 2x time on to play it safe. with m4ohn you are probably ok with time off = time on, then the s1+ cycle, then time off = 2x time on s1+.

I doubt you see much from a low-dosed m4ohn for bulking, I would think you would need at least 24mg per day for lean bulking. Nolva would be much better than 6oxo for PCT, and it is cheaper to boot. If you bought the 6oxo already from one of the big online stores (mike/1fast400/bulknutrition etc) you can probably return it.
 
pu12en12g

pu12en12g

CONTROLLED LABS CONSULTANT
Awards
1
  • Established
M4OHN isn't used for bulking. So don't use that until your ready to cut up.
In my opinion, this is terrible advice. Just my opinion.

Fact = people have used it mostly for cutting

Fact = these same people have mostly negative feedback, no feedback or no results

For anyone whose primary goal is mass, strength, and size gains, common sense dictates that one should be on a calorie surplus when on these compounds. I don't think this can be stressed enough, and it applies to 99% of us.

Everything changes at a pre-contest level, where the primary goal is now to do whatever it takes to win the contest = rediculous low bodyfat.
 
rrgg

rrgg

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
pu12en12g, It's not exactly a fact that "most people" did this or that. You're really talking about anecdotal claims you've heard. In any case, I agree with your final assessment, that for bulking he should use something else.
 
Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
Time off = time on at a minimum, 2x time on to play it safe. with m4ohn you are probably ok with time off = time on, then the s1+ cycle, then time off = 2x time on s1+.
Thanks for the directions.
Still i'm thinking of adding maybe just 4AD (transderm) to this cycle. In that case i think i have to use nolva.

I doubt you see much from a low-dosed m4ohn for bulking, I would think you would need at least 24mg per day for lean bulking.
Low dose overall, but still not too low like the first days. Actually i'm going to take 16mg in 4x 4mg pills evenly distributed during the day, which is better than taking 24mg splitted in 2 doses. I'm 5'7"x160 lbs. I'll be upping the dose of m4ohn after the first week @8mg

Nolva would be much better than 6oxo for PCT, and it is cheaper to boot. If you bought the 6oxo already from one of the big online stores (mike/1fast400/bulknutrition etc) you can probably return it.
I am in europe and i buy almost everything form some UK online store. And yes, I already bought 6oxo with the m4ohn before starting the cycle. And I read that its enough running 4 weeks for PCT of m4ohn alone.
Price isnt my main concern, but is availability of the products. I think i can find nolva but it'll be not be so easy. I dont want to mess with the Customs, as they bothered me for simple stuff like colostrum...
 

RaZoR-ShaRp

New member
Awards
0
Have you thought about a MOHN-1,4 stack.The cycle could turn out to be more $,cause of 1,4 prices and availabilty.But the reports are almost always positive,the stack is very mild and sides(androgen) are not as bad considering its a steriod........
 

mauibuilt

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
for your goals i'd stay away from s1+ and go with a homebrew, due to the high amounts of 4ad to 1test ratio. if you're goal is to put on LEAN mass, go with higher mg 1test than 4ad. most you want to keep it a lean cycle only use 4ad to combat the sides so you have to play around with the 4ad dose. m4ohn or m5aa would be good additions to the cycle as well as 1,4andro. i'd stay away from m1t for your first cycle, although m1t would probably be the best compound for the gains you are looking for.
 
Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
Have you thought about a MOHN-1,4 stack.The cycle could turn out to be more $,cause of 1,4 prices and availabilty.But the reports are almost always positive,the stack is very mild and sides(androgen) are not as bad considering its a steriod........
Yes, indeed 1,4 Andro was one of the compounds i considered stacking with M4OHN.
Also, as i said above, price is not my main concern, as it is instead availability within the UE.

Besides this, I'd like to know why it would be preferable to stack 1,4 Andro instead of 4AD (i will use a transdermal) with M4OHN. The goal of the additional compound is build mass, as hardening and strenght SHOULD come from M4OHN.

BTW, I decided to take 1t+4ad stack as second cycle (doses to be defined altough S1+ would be very handy).
 

cr4ytonic

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
If you are determined just to use 6-oxo for pct w/ m4ohn then I don't think you should stack it with anything.
 
rrgg

rrgg

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
You asked why people are recommending 1,4ad for you instead 4ad. I'm not sure but your "lean mass" goal sounds like you want "clean" gains with little bloating and visible side effects. 1,4ad could be better for that because it has minimal aromatization and the diol version of 1,4ad has even less.

I don't know about the test shutdown though -- I'm guessing 1,4ad-diol shuts down natural test production to a lesser extent than 4ad, 1-test, and other similar products. Anyone?
 
rrgg

rrgg

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
1,4ad could be better for that because it has minimal aromatization and the diol version of 1,4ad has even less.
Can anyone share first-hand account of how much of this aromitation they noticed on 1,4ad (dione) ?

Thanks.
 

Brodus

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
This is only based on what I've read on forums and review boards, but I've actually heard shutdown on 1,4 is pretty severe.
 
rrgg

rrgg

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
So I guess there is a bit of estrogen conversion to deal with in 1,4ad (dione) despite some other reports. (I may have also been misled because I thought the related drug, equipoise, was not like this)

I wonder about the diol version and shutdown... ?
 
Last edited:

Nullifidian

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Also, Nolva and Clomid are illegal substances. There seems to be some confusion of that for a lot of people. They think they are "supplements". I don't understand where they get that from, but they are illegal to posses without a presciption.
They are only illegal to possess without a prescrip if they are labelled for human consuption and packaged as such. If they are specifically labelled as research chemicals then unless it is Scheduled, you can possess as much as you want. So, it's legal to buy liquid and powder, but it isn't legal to buy tabs or caps. Otherwise it wouldn't be legal for custom to sell the stuff.
 
Dutchman

Dutchman

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Brodus and RRGG, correct me if I am way off base here, but I understand 1,4 Andro to be less effective than 4AD in maintaining the old test. Still it is effective and as such that is one of its positives vis a vis my old friends, M1T, 1Test and 1AD whichI always hadto supplement with some 4AD. In this respect it mirrors my experience with M4ohn wherin I had no shutdown on theM4ohn alone. When I added 3 wks of 19 Nor which usually shuts me down hard, the M4ohn somehow ameliorated its effect and my test/libido stayed up. Trust me, at my age I notice up!!!!LOL

I draw reference for the above also from 1Fast's Tolson who when talking about a 19 Nordiol/1,4 Androdiol stack said, "With this stack, we get the benefits of two compounds with low side effects combined that balance each other out for both low androgenic and estrogenic side effects and probably less reduction in sex drive than if 19-nor was used as a standalone." (To me this mirrors my recent M4ohn/19 Nor stack.)

Elsewhere comparing 1,4 Andro with 1Test Tolson says," 1,4-andro will have less androgenic side effects than 1-test and also will not reduce sex drive, but it is also a less effective muscle builder.

Hopefully I have correctly understood your concern and this is somehow helpful. I expect no shutdown when I combine M4ohn and 1,4 Androdiol in my next cycle.
 
rrgg

rrgg

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Dutchman -- I haven't tried 1,4ad (yet), and I can't say that you're wrong. Mostly I asked this question after reading conflicting reports, and was looking for confirmations or denials.

Since the dione version supposedly has some small or moderate amount of estrogen conversion, I think you'd expect some T shutdown also. You suspect it will be negligible on m4ohn/1,4ad. A few guys have told me personally that shutdown was noticable but minimal when taking 1,4ad alone. But then there are other reports like the ones Brodus mentioned. I also find it hard to separate a lot of this information because a lot of 1,4ad users seem to stack it with 1-test.

(Side note-- In theory, Anavar, has no shutdown via HPTA, so that could explain your m4ohn experience.)

Have you decided your dosing schedule for m4ohn/1,4ad yet? I'm considering it also...
 

Brodus

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Look guys, when something other than your natural testosterone binds to your androgenic receptors, your bio-feedback loop tells your 'nads to ease up on the testosterone production. Unless my biology class was wrong, aromatization has little to do with this. Whether or not a compound aromatizes is not relative to shutdown. For instance, M1T (the methylated version of dihydroboldenone) does not aromatize, yet shuts you down to nothing in three days.

1,4 andro (diol AND dione), which become Boldenone (EQ), both have rather strong effects, and as such can be expected to shut you down. What I have read says the shutdown is pretty severe. The dione/diol debate centers on which conversion enzyme is utilized...obvisouly the best stack is a combination of both. Although the -diols are inherently not prone to aromatization, this doesn't mean they don't shut you down, etc., it only means estrogenic sides are likely to be less.

A low-supression cycle would be 4OHT trans and M4OHN.
 
Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
A low-supression cycle would be 4OHT trans and M4OHN.
Its exactly what i'm thinking tight now :)
Adding 4OHT trans instead of 4AD should not suppress me much and help with the gains.

Any suggestion on dosage? I plan to run it 4 of the 6 weeks of m4ohn.
 
rrgg

rrgg

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Brodus- I think you're right. I'm confused about estrogen, but I don't think that changes the reports I've read from 1,4ad users. Yes, some have reported significant test shutdown, but they seem to be the minority. Most use phrases like "much less shutdown than 1-ad" and "minor shrinkage." Two said they think 6-oxo would be OK PCT for a solo run. I could just be misinformed.

Syr- How much of the 4OHT transdermal and m4ohn are you planning?
 
Last edited:

Nullifidian

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
All I've heard from 1,4andro suggests that it does not suppress you that badly.

And no, not all shutdown is the same. You can be suppressed slightly without being completely shutdown. Heck, Dr. D. said he doesn't even get fully suppressed on like Anadrol (I believe he said 150mg ED). Like all things, test suppression is not black or white, it is not simply "on" or "off."

And yes, recovery is possible while exogenous androgens roam your body. Due the whole it not being a black and white issue. Not all steroids suppress to the same degree, and the ones that lesser in their suppression can allow for at least partial recovery while still on them. Not full, but at least partial.
 
Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
Syr- How much of the 4OHT transdermal and m4ohn are you planning?
Second week I will top my m4ohn dosage to 24g and i will continue up to week 6.
I have no idea of the recommended dosages for 4OHT transdermal alone and in conjuction with something else, thats why I asked for suggestions in the above post. I'm not that heavy and I respond pretty well to drugs if they work (or i dont respond at all and i get bad sides if they dont work for me).
 
Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
Update:
Well, I'm doing a 6 weeks m4ohn only cycle and so far (3rd week) i'm favorably impressed by the compound and by the total lack of side effects (with is uncommon for me). Anyway i will redo the blood tests after the cycle.

I'm thinking of a homebrew transdermal stack for my nect cycle (posting a new thread soon).
 
jas123

jas123

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
All I've heard from 1,4andro suggests that it does not suppress you that badly.

And no, not all shutdown is the same. You can be suppressed slightly without being completely shutdown. Heck, Dr. D. said he doesn't even get fully suppressed on like Anadrol (I believe he said 150mg ED). Like all things, test suppression is not black or white, it is not simply "on" or "off."

And yes, recovery is possible while exogenous androgens roam your body. Due the whole it not being a black and white issue. Not all steroids suppress to the same degree, and the ones that lesser in their suppression can allow for at least partial recovery while still on them. Not full, but at least partial.
There a couple of older threads on this if anyone's interested.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9053&highlight=shut
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11512&highlight=testosterone

EDIT : the second link should work now.
 
Last edited:

Nullifidian

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
HPTA inhibition can be caused by 2 things: androgenic negative feedback and estrogenic negative feedback. Estrogenic negative feedback is more potent. If you inhibit estrogenic negative feedback you only have to worry about androgenic negative feedback, which varies from compound to compound. If you then inhibit androgenic negative feedback, it is possible to recover, IF the compound you are using does not inhibit greatly.

Your own natural testosterone causes negative feedback, both estrogenically and androgenically. The estrogenically much moreso than androgenically. Heck, that's why we don't have metric craptons of testosterone floating around our body: negative feedback. It is part of our own body's regulation. Just because you've got negative feedback doesn't mean test production will continue to decline. That's like saying if you take a small amount of Nolva it will eventually block all estrogen receptor sites. Not gonna happen. It is all dose dependant, and many people can take milder compounds in decent doses and NOT be shutdown if they are not sensative to negative feedback from them. I define shutdown as lower than normal natural testosterone production and/or a steady decline in natural testosterone production.


That being said, if you are take Letro at a decent dose ED, you will inhibit 95-97% of estrogen. This will represent a DRAMATIC decrease in negative feedback. If you are taking something like 1,4andro, that means the only negative feedback will be from the resulting boldenone; which is a mild androgen. The negative feedback from boldenone is much much less than the negative feedback from testosterone, mg for mg (though it depends on the person; some people may actually be more suppressed by boldenone; boldenone is just an example). With a hefty dose of Tribulus, that should be enough to inhibit negative feedback from the boldenone (dose dependant of course) to keep negative feedback low enough to raise natural testosterone levels decently enough to make recovery easier.

However in order to recover fully, obviously you have to go completely off the stuff.
 

Slick2oo4

Banned
Awards
0
They are only illegal to possess without a prescrip if they are labelled for human consuption and packaged as such. If they are specifically labelled as research chemicals then unless it is Scheduled, you can possess as much as you want. So, it's legal to buy liquid and powder, but it isn't legal to buy tabs or caps. Otherwise it wouldn't be legal for custom to sell the stuff.
Yea what he said my rats can have all they want. Damn juiced up rats wooried about gyno when they have such big balls
 
wastedwhiteboy2

wastedwhiteboy2

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
so tapering off would help keep your gains? If you tapered with a dry ph. Null I've been following your thread. curious to see how everything works out pct.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Anabolics 16
mattrag Anabolics 1
Anabolics 16
Anabolics 0
Anabolics 1

Similar threads


Top