Why not to stack orals? Pursuing a definitive answer
- 08-18-2004, 06:16 PM
Why not to stack orals? Pursuing a definitive answer
I have looked around, but I have not found a definitive answer to the question of whether the positive effects of using two oral (methylated) steroids be the same, better, or worse if they are used stacked (at lower doses) or alternated (at higher doses). Of course, I am talking about comparing the use of the same total amount over the course of the cycle. With all of the talk of the dangers of stacking methylated oral steroids, if someone can answer this question definitively (i.e. with something to back it up), then the case can be put to rest -- it is in no way better to stack methyls than to use them singly at higher doses for shorter durations.
So for example, if someone was going to use 36mg of M4OHN + 15mg of Mdien for 8 weeks, all other things being equal, how would the benefits compare to using 72mg of M4OHN for 4 weeks, THEN 30mg of Mdien for 4 weeks (or the other way around)?
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that these substances do work, or if you don’t think so, then substitute anything else which you are sure works, e.g. anavar and winstrol, or whatever.
In both cycles below the total amounts used are: M4OHN 2016mg and Mdien 840mg.
Cycle A: Weeks 1-8 | M4OHN 36mg + Mdien 15mg
Cycle B: Weeks 1-4 | M4OHN 72mg
---------- Weeks 5-8 | Mdien 30mg
(or vice versa)
1) There are obviously some steroids which are complementary, in that you wouldn't want to do one without the other: if you're going to do 1test or m1t, you'll want to do 4AD (or test). This is not what we are interested in talking about here.
2) If you want to weigh in on the issue of hepatotoxicity of stacking methyls or not, no problem, but still please try to keep that point distinct from the question at hand - namely comparing the positive efficacy of each strategy.
- 08-18-2004, 10:26 PM
I don't see why the synergy between two methyls wouldn't work the same as when you stack any other anabolic weather it be the stack of an oral with an injectable, multiple injectable, etc. The only way we could really know if this also would cause a "1+1=3" effect on liver values is if someone ran one oral had values checked, ran another checking again, finally followed by a half dose of each with the same liver value test (wouldn't be perfect but would offer a little insight.) Unless someone takes the time to run 3 seperate cycles with this process in mind it's understandable that the stacking idea is genarally advised against, simply for the sake of safety. Would deffinately be interesting if someone took the time to do it though.
- 08-18-2004, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by growmore
08-18-2004, 11:53 PM
OK the bottom line with the whole argument about "Its the same if u use less of two then a lot of 1 thing" Its pure logic:
First off, most of the methyl products out their right now require higher amounts to even be effective, excluding M1T. So taking 2 things of lower doses will probably not stack up to using 1 product at the correct optimal gain amount.
2nd, using 2 products, besides hindering potential gains, IS more destructive to the liver (In almost all cases) If u try to compare, maybe taking 3-5 grams of methyl-d stacked with 5-10grams of m1t, AND COMPARE it to taking 20 or so grams of m1t, it just doesnt add up. Having the methyl attached to the two different substances will in most cases cause just as much damage. If u wanted to look at, lets say even 50+ grms of m1,4add (Some have taken 100-200) and stack it with low amounts of any other substance, I think its quite clear what would potentially cause more damage.
AS for the gains side, ya sure its obvious if u stack regular amounts of, for exampole m1t with regular amounts of methyl-d or mohn or m1,4 then ur going to see greater gains. But the health aspect is what puts a halt to this. It will most likely cause many sides on top of liver damage, and thats a lot of conversion and different hormones floating around inside your body. Even if ur an iron tank, and dont feel anything, we dont know the potential long term side effects of these substances on top of u can still be doing damage even if u dont feel "pain" ect.
Now if u wanted to do regular dose of one subject, and then another proceeding it a few problems still arise. It usually calls for longer cycle times which is hard on the body by itself and calls for heavier PCT usually. On top of throwing different hormones around to ur body, the longer time is going to do just as much if not more damage to ur liver and anything else. Its like a constant pounding to it, taking 30 or so mgs off of a product so u can use 2 things at once (Besides being alot) isnt a big enough difference to hinder injury of the liver.
Gain wise, stacking 2 regular amounts of methyl substances will of course equal more gains. As for using them both at once at lower doses, and seperating them at higher dosages, it depends on the compound. Cycle A uses less of each product than Cycle B, and uses them at the same time. The thing is the amounts, althrough less, are still very substancial for muscle gain. (ex: 10mg methyld) Using higher amounts of one substance, and then jumping to the next is also going to see good gains, but once again it depends on the substances. If I were u id maybe even shorten the length, and take the amounts u used in cycle A and then use the cycle B plan with those amounts.
Basically, its not advised, but its ur body. Think of it like that.
08-19-2004, 12:08 AM
I've gone over this in a very generic way in an old M1T thread that I can't remember how. Basicly, people stack an oral and an ester for this reason: Test esters, and all non 17-alkylated steroids, lower creatine excretion resembling that of nitrogen. After withdrawl, excretion rebounds drasticly. Treatment w/ an oral, 17-alkylated, has the opposite effect. It is even more pronounced w/ hyperthyroidism, which may suggest increased creatine synthesis, but it reamains unclear. Methylation of guanidinoacetate results in creatine. Methionine is a methyl donor but is also needed for normal cell protien synthesis, so it could be argued that the precursor aminos used for creatine synthesis are not available for this as they are diverted for cell growth w/ non-alkylated steroids. This would explain well why they compliment one another so well, and why orals are so often associated with more temporary, water-type gains that are more difficult to keep. This is old knowledge, but you'd be surprised how few people really understand.
08-19-2004, 09:50 PM
Dr.D, your response was full of good information, and I've taken note of it, but my question remains about using two similar (dry/cutting) orals, whether better results would come from using them simultaneously at lower doses or not. Maybe it will be better to ask which of these plans would be more effective:
Cycle A: Weeks 1-8 | M4OHN 36mg + Mdien 15mg
Cycle B: Weeks 17-24 | M4OHN 36mg + Mdien 15mg
Cycle C: Weeks 1-8 | M4OHN 72mg
Cycle D: Weeks 17-24 | Mdien 30mg
I recognize that the best results using PH's come from using complementary substances, but my question is trying to resolve something else.
08-19-2004, 11:25 PM
Sorry Strat, I guess I didn't really understand what you were getting at initially. I always get slammed on this issue, but I must say that I would do both together like your Cycle A/B is planned out. The real prob w/ stacking orals is toxicity, as you have pointed out. Some are clearly synergistic and they do not all follow strictly the 17-alkyl sub. rule I stated before(like Nilevar.) Others are helpful cause they mask side effects, like m14 w/ m1t. But be aware of metabolism. Anadrol, for example, gives rise to a predictable ratio of metabolites. Dbol converts to some of the same 5-reduced metabolites, so stacking these two may resonate specific undesirable side effects. It's really a little more complex than that, but it can be safely done if you take only well planned, strategic risks. You do have to experiment to test your ideas in the 'real world,' that's why I say risks. No two people metabolize drugs equally. Some have higher rates of clearance because of intrinsic differences in inducible enzyme aptitudes, etc.
Specificly, I'd pyramid orals just for effeciency. You can get away w/ smaller doses initially at least, but tolerance can develope quickly. I respond to doses as small as 12mg of m4ohn at the start, but them require 3x the dose before it's over. The last two weeks, cut the dose in a linear fashion, like ...36, 36, 20, 8, 0. On the week you cut back, start loading PCT. This little overlap helps you recover better and avoids losses at the end, also no abrupt SHBG fluctuations. Your body will thank you for not just ending a 2 month cycle at your highest dose. Not sure why folks still do it that way. Really, w/ m4ohn, this may not be needed. I didn't even use PCT after it, it was not required. Also, front the androgens and save the anabolics for the end. Most will tell you the opposite, but it makes little sense. You need the strength up front, and the repair at the end. Also, stronger androgens are generally more suppressive and better tolerated at the front, why suppress right at the end when your about to try and recover it? Here is how I'd do it... You probably already know most of this, just trying to better answer the question this time: (values in mg/day)
Week 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
MD 10 15 15 15 10 5 0 0
m4ohn 0 0 8 16 28 36 20 8
Total mg 10 15 23 31 38 41 20 8
This is not fine tuned, just an idea of what I would do and my point on this, the m4ohn is 'liver friendly' and the MD is not, so total mg may be misleading, but for how low the doses are, I bet 1+1 would equal 3 w/ reduced toxicity even at the height of the cycle. These two will generate different metabolites w/out much overlap.
08-19-2004, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by DR.D
Bro I think the same way. My current cycle dealt with phases in a very similar fashion. All's I have to say is it's been the best to date and I'm not goin back.
08-20-2004, 01:01 AM
Amen brother! On 2 or 3 month cycles, it's just more effecient. Dynamic periodization.Originally Posted by jminis
08-22-2004, 03:49 PM
About your other question on this issue, stacking two orals is not necessarily counterproductive. In some cases it would be. Like using halo and winny together. They will give about the same result separately as they would together. But if the idiosyncrasies of each drug are diverse, you will have enhanced productivity(this is when 1+1=3) Because MD has a moderate androgenic component and a moderate anabolic component, it will stack fair w/ M4OHN as it has a milder androgenic component and a stronger anabolic component. They will reinforce one another in strength gains since they both promote this well, but MD will offer a progestinic effect that the M4OHN doesn't. Also, as for androgenic effects, there will be balancing, so I guess you could call this counterproductive, depending on your bottom line. If you want to avoid androgenic side, then it's not. The whole point is that orals play out pretty fast. I think you should milk one for 6 weeks max, then the doses have to be raise such that toxicity starts to outweight the benifits not to mention cost. That's why I say run them together in an overlapped pyramid for eight weeks. Cycle plans C & D would be effective for shorter durations. For example, if you wanted to use them separately, I've done cycles like this before:
Week 1,2,3 w/ MD @ 10,15,20
Week 4 -off-
Week 5,6,7 w/M4ohn @ 40,20,10 (start PCT load in wk6)
Week 8 stabilized, maint. PCT, continued for 2 or 4 more wk's
This works well and the orals never get stale. I've also never lost strength in week4. I just keep growing, but the off week refreshens my responce to the next oral and is very important. But also remember, I did not account for the esters here that I'd be doing too.
Basicly, you can do 8 weeks of the same oral, but it will become ineffecient after the 3'rd to 5'th week. If the toxicity of the oral is low, then just keep ramping the dose, but SHBG issues will start to discourage effeciency at some point. Renal hyperplasia is also sometimes an issue down the road.
Hope this finally helped! Sorry for the slow responses bud, I've been swamped.
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