non methyl thoughts

[rebelhead]

i've thought about this as a methyl alternative. delta-2, furaza-a, or p-stanz might make decent injectables. it should take care of the poor bioavailability of them as orals. furaza is a pretty good anabolic on paper. this is speculation, but ethyloleate would probably suffice as a solvent or guaiacol. this would probably require ed or eod injects, but u could use a small guage pin because the eo flows easily. has anyone tried this?

 

[heebs10]

what about the fillers that come in these products? i guess unless you can find the raws. and whats delta-2?

 

[rebelhead]

what about the fillers that come in these products? i guess unless you can find the raws. and whats delta-2?

delta-2 was in 3ad. it is unmethylated pheraplex. i dont think anyone is selling it right now. furaza list other ingredients as cellulose and gellatin(probably the capsule). neither are soluble in oil. just bust up the caps in oil and heat a little. the binders will stay on the bottom. just like making fina.

 

[heebs10]

interesting idea, dude. how much more potent do you think the fura would be compared to oral?

 

[rebelhead]

check it out. here is the vida entry. http://www.worldclassbodybuilding.com/forums/f395/furaza-89221/ it says its 100% as anabolic as test prop and about half as androgenic by inj

 

[jbryand101b]

Acetals like THP ethers hydrolyze easily under acidic conditions, which means that orally taken THP ethers of anabolic steroids will hydrolyze already in the stomach. This sets free the anabolic steroid, while it still has to pass the intestinal track and the liver. So there will be time and opportunity for metabolic transformation of the steroid to inactive metabolites.


A THP ether also can be given parentally, but the THP steroid derivative itself is not active. When the derivative does not pass the stomach, the THP ether group has to be removed in a different way. In the blood and in muscles the pH is neutral and under these conditions THP ethers are stable compounds. We also do not have enzymes in the blood, which can hydrolyze THP ethers, as is the case with esters.


However, cytochrome P450 enzymes can oxidize THP ethers in the liver. This oxidation takes place in the ring next to the O-atom. The oxidation product then decomposes spontaneously to a dialdehyde and the free steroid (see Scheme 3). This scheme is a bit speculative, because little has been published about the metabolism of THP ethers
The free steroid will be converted in the liver to glucuronates or sulfate esters. The free steroid also may be inactivated through bonding to Sex Hormone Binding Globuline. Probably only a small part of the steroid will reach the muscle cell.


There is a clear difference between esters and THP-ethers of anabolic steroids. Esters are given parentally and after a slow release in the blood, enzymes will hydrolyze them to the active anabolic steroid. Orally taken THP ethers will hydrolyze already in the stomach. Parentally given THP ethers are oxidized in the liver and the active steroid is set free there.


As orally taken THP ethers are already hydrolyzed in the stomach, it does not make much difference when you take the anabolic steroids itself or its THP ether. The marketing of an anabolic steroid as its THP ether probably has more to do with avoidance of patents or law regulations than with the making of better or longer lasting anabolic compounds.

-taken from chapter on ethers from the anabolics book.

 

[rebelhead]

Acetals like THP ethers hydrolyze easily under acidic conditions, which means that orally taken THP ethers of anabolic steroids will hydrolyze already in the stomach. This sets free the anabolic steroid, while it still has to pass the intestinal track and the liver. So there will be time and opportunity for metabolic transformation of the steroid to inactive metabolites.


A THP ether also can be given parentally, but the THP steroid derivative itself is not active. When the derivative does not pass the stomach, the THP ether group has to be removed in a different way. In the blood and in muscles the pH is neutral and under these conditions THP ethers are stable compounds. We also do not have enzymes in the blood, which can hydrolyze THP ethers, as is the case with esters.


However, cytochrome P450 enzymes can oxidize THP ethers in the liver. This oxidation takes place in the ring next to the O-atom. The oxidation product then decomposes spontaneously to a dialdehyde and the free steroid (see Scheme 3). This scheme is a bit speculative, because little has been published about the metabolism of THP ethers
The free steroid will be converted in the liver to glucuronates or sulfate esters. The free steroid also may be inactivated through bonding to Sex Hormone Binding Globuline. Probably only a small part of the steroid will reach the muscle cell.


There is a clear difference between esters and THP-ethers of anabolic steroids. Esters are given parentally and after a slow release in the blood, enzymes will hydrolyze them to the active anabolic steroid. Orally taken THP ethers will hydrolyze already in the stomach. Parentally given THP ethers are oxidized in the liver and the active steroid is set free there.


As orally taken THP ethers are already hydrolyzed in the stomach, it does not make much difference when you take the anabolic steroids itself or its THP ether. The marketing of an anabolic steroid as its THP ether probably has more to do with avoidance of patents or law regulations than with the making of better or longer lasting anabolic compounds.

-taken from chapter on ethers from the anabolics book.

thanks man, good info. i was concerned if the ether is cleaved u would wind up with a 17 ketone, which is inactive before enzymatic conversion. an acid enviroment shouldn't be difficult to replicate. u can get hcl at lowes. it would take some experimentation to get it down. maybe ethanol solvent at ph of 4? probably more trouble and money than its worth.
that delta 2 in 3ad was an acetate ester i believe. if someone would sell that again? there is a report over at ergo-log that claims it is highly effective when pinned.

 

[jbryand101b]

3 ad contained the esterfied non methylated phera, and delta 2 converts into non esterfied non methylated pheraplex.

even if you remove the thp ether yourself, it will still be deactivated multiple ways via the liver & shbg via the blood.

all in all, i wouldn't feel it is worth the effort.

no sure how much better it would be vs taking it orally.

 

[rebelhead]

the section in the book is strictly talking about the oral route. the purpose of the thp ether grouping is to make the substance more lipophylic so it can enter the lymphatic system thus bypassing the first pass metabolism. injtd it should behave like any other esterfied compound. as a matter of fact the ester should call for a slow release from the depot like any other ester(less frequent injects). then it will be enzymatically cleaved to the active steroid like any other ester. the ether grouping is on the ring attachment, not the 17 position. they got this sh1t cheap over at suppwar. it is probably about like winstrol, but if im right the thp ester would slow the release for days. i'm gonna research these thp's solubility in oil further.

 

[jbryand101b]

I think you missed this, or didn't understand it.

A THP ether also can be given parentally(this is talking about injection), but the THP steroid derivative itself is not active. When the derivative does not pass the stomach, the THP ether group has to be removed in a different way. In the blood and in muscles the pH is neutral and under these conditions THP ethers are stable compounds. We also do not have enzymes in the blood, which can hydrolyze THP ethers, as is the case with esters. (like test e/c/p)

However, cytochrome P450 enzymes can oxidize THP ethers in the liver. This oxidation takes place in the ring next to the O-atom. The oxidation product then decomposes spontaneously to a dialdehyde and the free steroid (see Scheme 3). This scheme is a bit speculative, because little has been published about the metabolism of THP ethers
The free steroid will be converted in the liver to glucuronates or sulfate esters (inactivating it). The free steroid also may be inactivated through bonding to Sex Hormone Binding Globuline. Probably only a small part of the steroid will reach the muscle cell.


There is a clear difference between esters and THP-ethers of anabolic steroids. Esters are given parentally and after a slow release in the blood, enzymes will hydrolyze them to the active anabolic steroid. Orally taken THP ethers will hydrolyze already in the stomach. Parentally given THP ethers are oxidized in the liver and the active steroid is set free there.

-taken from chapter on ethers from the anabolics book.

also, this is only a small part of the chapter. this litte excerpt discusses differences between orally taken thp ethers, and parentally (injection) taken thp ethers.

 

[rebelhead]

ya the thp steroid is freed in the liver and will hit the blood stream and do its job.

 

[rebelhead]

i need to research this further. btw aint the guy who wrote that book the same guy that came out with anachronic acid as a supplement.

 

[kc777]

I just want to say this is exactly the content I love seeing on this board; no bickering, arguing, b!tching, etc... Instead, people sharing information and knowledge in a humble manner (using sources, "Anabolics Book") that allows people like me to just watch and learn. Weird post, I know, but I just wanted to give some appreciation to you guys. I'd rep you both but I'm on my phone and cannot do that from the app (not that I've found, anyway).

 

[jbryand101b]

i need to research this further. btw aint the guy who wrote that book the same guy that came out with anachronic acid as a supplement.

you are thinking of william llewellyn the author of "anabolics"

im referencing a different book called "the anabolics book"

Het Anabolenboek

Willem Koert
Aede de Groot

Wageningen, 14/09/2006

 

[jbryand101b]

ya the thp steroid is freed in the liver and will hit the blood stream and do its job.

'The free steroid will be converted in the liver to glucuronates or sulfate esters (inactivating it). The free steroid also may be inactivated through bonding to Sex Hormone Binding Globuline. Probably only a small part of the steroid will reach the muscle cell."

 

[jbryand101b]

I just want to say this is exactly the content I love seeing on this board; no bickering, arguing, b!tching, etc... Instead, people sharing information and knowledge in a humble manner (using sources, "Anabolics Book") that allows people like me to just watch and learn. Weird post, I know, but I just wanted to give some appreciation to you guys. I'd rep you both but I'm on my phone and cannot do that from the app (not that I've found, anyway).

dont thank me, thank the op, he's the one being pretty nice about this. seems like a good guy with an open mind.

 

[rebelhead]

you must of missed this part too.

'The free steroid will be converted in the liver to glucuronates or sulfate esters (inactivating it). The free steroid also may be inactivated through bonding to Sex Hormone Binding Globuline. Probably only a small part of the steroid will reach the muscle cell."

ya i get it . the active steroid will be metabolize in the liver at the same time as cleaving the thp off, leaving it inactive in the process.
hey i think u may be right. thanks man it keeps my from trying it and wasting my money. good talkin @u

 

[jbryand101b]

it's why companies havn't released the product via a transdermal route.

now, if you knew how to remove the thp ether yourself, and add on a ester, you may be on to something.

but if you could do all that, you may just want to methylate it. lol.

wish i had patrick arnold skillz, i'd be having all kinds of fun, that is, until i got popped by the feds.

 

[heebs10]

it's why companies havn't released the product via a transdermal route.

now, if you knew how to remove the thp ether yourself, and add on a ester, you may be on to something.

but if you could do all that, you may just want to methylate it. lol.

wish i had patrick arnold skillz, i'd be having all kinds of fun, that is, until i got popped by the feds.

yep, dont we all

 

[mugen112]

Very interesting so do you think with 500mg furaza a per day would still be worthless if you forget how expensive it is. Or do you think it should be dosed even higher to get a worthy effect?

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

A transdermal furaza-a would b dope. Imagine the money that would b saved if u didn't have to buy 3 bottles for a good run lol.

 

[mugen112]

Why don't they make a suppository one?

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

Why don't they make a suppository one?

Lmao would b pretty effective but u can count me out on that one.

 

[harbonah]

Very interesting so do you think with 500mg furaza a per day would still be worthless if you forget how expensive it is. Or do you think it should be dosed even higher to get a worthy effect?

At 300-350 mg in a 6 week cycle I put on 8 lbs so I didn't find it worthless.

 

[jbryand101b]

500mg for 6 weeks would probably be awesome.

To get an idea of how a 17a methyl group helps, an effective dose of furazabol is around 30-50mg.

The fura thp compound is like 300 plus mg's. Big diff there.

 

[mugen112]

How about taking heart burn medicine to help reduce acid to help keep the thp ether in tact longer so it can make it to the small intestine?

 

[jbryand101b]

How about taking heart burn medicine to help reduce acid to help keep the thp ether in tact longer so it can make it to the small intestine?

I have thought about this, not sure how many tums/pepcid you'd have to take to make it effective.

probably a combo of tums (acid neutralizer) & pre loading with famotidine ( an acid reducer). it's prob mess all kinds of other stuff up with your digestive system though.

 

[Eric Potratz]

it's why companies havn't released the product via a transdermal route.

now, if you knew how to remove the thp ether yourself, and add on a ester, you may be on to something.

but if you could do all that, you may just want to methylate it. lol.

wish i had patrick arnold skillz, i'd be having all kinds of fun, that is, until i got popped by the feds.

Ethers or esters are both viable for lymphatic delivery or injection. Both of them should be fairly resistant to hydrolysis in the stomach acid too... and the ester/ether doesnt really get removed until it reaches the esterase in the intestinal track. They hydrolyze in acid in theory, but apparently not entirely in the stomach acid.

My recommendation is to just take the fura with a high fat meal and grapefruit juice. Take advantage of the ether and lymphatic system.

-eric

 

[mugen112]

Ethers or esters are both viable for lymphatic delivery or injection. Both of them should be fairly resistant to hydrolysis in the stomach acid too... and the ester/ether doesnt really get removed until it reaches the esterase in the intestinal track. They hydrolyze in acid in theory, but apparently not entirely in the stomach acid.

My recommendation is to just take the fura with a high fat meal and grapefruit juice. Take advantage of the ether and lymphatic system.

-eric

So take it with high fat to prevent hydrolysis but also take it with acidic grapefruit juice to increase hydrolysis? Now I'm confused...

 

[Eric Potratz]

So take it with high fat to prevent hydrolysis but also take it with acidic grapefruit juice to increase hydrolysis? Now I'm confused...

sorry..

take with fat to increase lymphatic delivery (working though lipophilic/gallbladder releasing/emulsion creating action)

and take grapefruit to reduce esterase (hydrolysis) and cyp3a4. (working by the action of flavonoids/furocoumarins)

The grapefruit acid is not contributing to hydrolysis, and again, the stomach acid it not really contributing very much either. Its the esterase, not so much the acid.

 

[mugen112]

So if I drink grapefruit juice on a regular basis it will overall help or do I have to drink it with the dose?

 

[Eric Potratz]

So if I drink grapefruit juice on a regular basis it will overall help or do I have to drink it with the dose?

It will help overall. It doesnt need to be co-administered. Effects last for about 24hr after a glass.

 

[mugen112]

Thanks Eric cool input.

 

[mugen112]

And thanks jbryand101b for discussing katana with me.

 

[jbryand101b]

Ethers or esters are both viable for lymphatic delivery or injection. Both of them should be fairly resistant to hydrolysis in the stomach acid too... and the ester/ether doesnt really get removed until it reaches the esterase in the intestinal track. They hydrolyze in acid in theory, but apparently not entirely in the stomach acid.

My recommendation is to just take the fura with a high fat meal and grapefruit juice. Take advantage of the ether and lymphatic system.

-eric

nope, this is wrong. you are confusing ordinary ethers with acetals (thp ether is an acetal, and only a partial ether).

acetals are easily hydrolized in acid.

and the cytochrome P450 enzymes will oxidize the THP ethers in the liver.

 

[mugen112]

Wtf I went out this morning and bought some grapefruit juice!

 

[mattrag]

nope, this is wrong. you are confusing ordinary ethers with acetals (thp ether is an acetal, and only a partial ether).

acetals are easily hydrolized in acid.

and the cytochrome P450 enzymes will oxidize the THP ethers in the liver.

Does this mean the andro series delivery system is flawed?

 

[jbryand101b]

no, it's a different compound.

i've had good results from stacking all natural g/f juice, with a strictly 300mg dhb product (sci-fit dhb 300)

the stuff eric was saying about helping absorbtion I agree with, i was just correcting the part about the thp ether group protecting the active steroid from becoming an inactive metabolite.

 

[MattPorter]

It will help overall. It doesnt need to be co-administered. Effects last for about 24hr after a glass.

Eric,

Would taking the THP ether based hormone in conjunction with an AndroSeries product (which includes esterase inhibiting grapefruit constituents & fatty acid esters) create a "piggy backing effect" and yield higher bio-availability for the Furazabol?

-Matt

 

[jbryand101b]

mabye, probably have a better chance if you do that, and with a meal as well.

 

[mugen112]

The thing is that I can literally feel 50mg furaza a without gfj or fat. Some of it must be getting into my system.

 

[flightposite]

Yeah I agree. I can use a low dose and see great results from furaz