M1T...No gains so far...

[gunzblazin1x]

This is day 14 of my M1T cycle and I have yet to see any increase in weight. I have noticed some increase in strength and have had some sides but thats about it. My training has been consistent and intense so that shouldn't be an issue. If I had to pick a weak area, it would probably be not enough calories but that shouldn't be off by much.

Here are my questions....

Do I continue to run the M1T for another week or two?

or

Do I go ahead and start my PCT (nolva) and try stacking 4AD with M1T next time?

I have been running this current cycle at 15mg ED. I know I am leaving a lot of info out that some might want to know, but I am pushed for time and want to get this posted so I can start getting some opinions on it. Feel free to ask about anything I omitted. Thanks.

 

[Rebel]

R u eating???

 

[rpward210]

I would recommend a 1AD/4AD transdermal the next time you plan on doing a cycle. If you haven't had any significant gains by now, you won't notice anymore in the next week. Start your PCT when done with your 2 weeks. What brand of M1T are you using, by any chance?

And yes, when in doubt, eat more.

 

[TheUsual]

R u eating???

Excellent advice, he might of forgotten about the whole eating thing.

 

[ManBeast]

He admitted to not enough calories... and that is definitely the problem... If you are "dieting" while on, or even around maintenance, you aren't providing your body the fuel for anabolism so you will probably only see the androgenic effects.

ManBeast

 

[gunzblazin1x]

I have been using Higer Power and Legal Gear.

I wouldn't say I forgot about the eating thing. I have been getting at least 1 gram of protien per pound of body weight (180), and I know many say it should be 1.5 or 2. I am actually starting to think that my carb intake isn't enough and that is causing me to use the protein I am taking in for fuel instead of building muscle.

In light of me not making any significant gains during the cycle, I feel certain that there is at least some problem with my diet. Im just not exactly sure what. I am now spending more time reading and researching in the nutrition threads. I have always had a hard time eating enough and I did experience some loss of appetite while on cycle so that didn't help matters.

I welcome any advice on both matters (PH cycle & nutrition)

Thanks.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Are you pumped at all??
If you are then the M1T is legit, and its the calories that need to be increased.

 

[gunzblazin1x]

Yeah, the pumps were good, big increase in strength, and aggression level was way up. I can't say for sure that the pumps were because of the M1T because I was/am also using NO-Xplode and had started that a few days before the cycle and got great pumps with it alone. At this point, I am 90% certain its a calorie issue. Its always been a struggle for me.......uugggg.

Anyone know of anything that will increase my appetite?

 

[tattoopierced1]

I used to take stuff from my Dr. that was a progesterone,
they primarily gave it to wasting patients to increase their appetites.
It did work, however, I lost all the hair on the back of my calves, but as soon
as I went off of it, I was fine. The Dr. kept close eye on my stats. I put on 50lbs while
on it. While on it, the nutritionist said I was eating close to 8000 calories per day. I plumped up
for a while, but now all the fat that I gained, I've lost and kept about 40lbs of the weight I've gained and I'm
still only 13-15% body fat, so I'd like to think that alot of the gains were muscle.

 

[cr4ytonic]

Try making a schedule and eating by the clock, just eat when it is time (hungry or not).

 

[PastorofMuppets]

"Anyone know of anything that will increase my appetite?"


Pot.

 

[Cardinal]

For appetite, try to minimize the amount of total food volume you ingest and eat things that appeal to you. Eat your protein first and shoot for about 50 grams or so a meal while on 6-8 meals a day. Use protein shakes if you need to. You can add olive oil and a ground up carb source like oats for example. Calories add up fast that way. Keep fiber low/moderate and drink most of your water after you get the calories in. Add seasoning and artificial sweeteners along with anything else that will make the food less bland.

For your next cycle, I suggest making some alterations. Find an appropriate way to stack the M1T with a 1-T/4AD transdermal. Use a lower dose of M1T(don't go up to 15 mg). The 1-T(or a similar anabolic) will likely help to increase your appetite. M1T isn't the androgen to run for someone with little appetite.

You don't have a really high bodyweight to begin with so you should be able to grow nicely around 3800-4000 calories/ED. What is your current intake?

 

[pu12en12g]

Anyone know of anything that will increase my appetite?

Boldione ?

Vitamin B's ?

Periactin ?

4ad ?

 

[CEDeoudes59]

4-ad is the answer here.

 

[Romac]

I have been using Higer Power and Legal Gear.

I have been getting at least 1 gram of protien per pound of body weight (180), and I know many say it should be 1.5 or 2. I am actually starting to think that my carb intake isn't enough and that is causing me to use the protein I am taking in for fuel instead of building muscle.

To build 1lb of muscle per week you need about an extra 350 carb calories per day (88grams) above maintenance just to do the work of building, and additional protein above maintenance (not sure exactly how much protein it takes to build 1 pound of muscle).

My maintenance level for protein is about .8 grams per pound of lbm so i would double that during a lean bulk, and almost triple it if i was on a cycle which amounts to about 2 grams per pound of LBM.

 

[Skark]

I can tell you from experience that you can build muscle and drop BF% while eating UNDER maintenance cals (for me 2300 per day). I am stacking M1T (5-7mg) and M4OHN (12mg) and gained 7 lbs (1 week in), lost 0.4% BF and am a hell of alot stronger.

Since you are goining strength, you will probably see a size increase soon. Stay on another week.

 

[gunzblazin1x]

Skark,

How long do you plan on running your cycle? What brand PHs are you using?

Thanks to all who have posted a reply, I really appreciate the advice. I did a lot of reading on this board, EF, and BB.com before I started the cycle. There is a lot of good info on all three but chose this board to seek advice on.

BTW, Im 35 and have been training very consistent for over three years now. During that time, I am seen a great improvment in over all body composition, strength, ect...

What thoughts do you have on the age factor here? Is it possible to make a dramatic change in body comp (say from 180 to 210 w/12% bf) at my age??? When I started out three years+ ago, I was around 165 and bf was a lot more than current. (I may have answered my own question there.)

I am now very aware from all my research that "diet" is the key, unfortunately, that seems to be my biggest weakness.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[TheUsual]

gunzblazin, has your body composition gotten better since you started the cycle? Your weight may have stayed the same, but it is likely you increased your lbm and dropped fat.

 

[Scottyo]

Not to be a downer there skark, but if I am not mistaken your bf levels are fairly moderate/high correct? If this is the case, then adding muscle while losing fat at submaintenance cals is very possible as your body will use your stored fat as fuel very readily. If someone is leaner, and/or has trained solidly for a while it becomes much harder to gain muscle and lose bf at the same time, even enhanced.

 

[gunzblazin1x]

gunzblazin, has your body composition gotten better since you started the cycle? Your weight may have stayed the same, but it is likely you increased your lbm and dropped fat.

That is one thing that I didn't do before starting was check my bf%. However, from just my appearance, if bf dropped......it wasn't much.

I have been trying to eat at least every three hours regardless if I was hungry or not. It was more difficult on the M1T due to a decrease in appetite. Also, I am fairly strict about what I eat, (no fast food, no processed sugars). Should I slack up on that and eat more "junk"? I really think that I was focusing so much on protein intake that I have let my complex carb intake suffer. ......frustrating.:frustrate

Today, I have just started trying to mix oats in with my protein shakes. Maybe that will help. If I can get the damn oats to blend well enough...lol.

 

[Romac]

I can tell you from experience that you can build muscle and drop BF% while eating UNDER maintenance cals (for me 2300 per day). I am stacking M1T (5-7mg) and M4OHN (12mg) and gained 7 lbs (1 week in), lost 0.4% BF and am a hell of alot stronger.

you may be able to gain muscle while eating under maintenance calories by using fat to do the work of building BUT it is 100% impossible to build muscle when your protein is at or below maintenance.

 

[Skark]

you may be able to gain muscle while eating under maintenance calories by using fat to do the work of building BUT it is 100% impossible to build muscle when your protein is at or below maintenance.

Thats not what the top chemists like Pat Arnold say....Thats what added Nitrogen retention is all about.

Scotty, yes I am a fat tub of crap so maybe I have more room for error, but I don't doubt that anyone over 10% BF couldn't do the same. I workout hard and smart. I have a log (he said log....) if anyone wants to follow along.

Also, I am 43 years old so it should be harder for me to do that.

Gunz, I am using the "special" Meso Labs M1T and DS M4OHN.

 

[Lich]

ALL I have to say is, if u truley arnt gaininbg off of M1T, throwing in 4-ad isnt going to do much at all in sense of "sparking up ur m1t gains", and u wont see much increase off of 4-ad in itself.

Im not sure why ur not responding, maybe u need to do more heavy training/volume training, and eat much more....I also hope ur getting lots of protein. Try not to do a whole lot of cardio if ur trying to gain some weight.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Drop the cycle and PCT then come back eating more clean calories and bump it up to 20mg ed. I've found m1t to work best for me at 20 with minimum sides and maximum gains. My gains at 30 were unreal but I was damn near crippled in the process.

 

[gunzblazin1x]

Jayhawk,

How long are you running your cycles for? Stacking with anything?

Skark,

Can you elaborate on the "special" part of the Meso Labs.... I haven't heard of that brand. Where do you get it?

 

[zed]

ultra 40 tabs by beverly international.. four with breakfast then 2-3 after any meal really helps with lose of appetite. they have b-12 and protein in them. used them on my mit /4ad stack and the difference in appetite was night and day when i did not take them.

 

[Romac]

Thats not what the top chemists like Pat Arnold say....Thats what added Nitrogen retention is all about.

Well if PA says that, and you believe him, i'll leave it to both of you to try to bulk on below maintenance protein. Just be sure to have an accurate idea of what your maintenance level of protein is so your results are accurate. My maintenance level is about .8g per lb of LBM so i'll continue to bulk at 1.6g per lb of LBM, and close to 2g per lb of LBM during a cycle. Best of luck bulking on .6g per lb of LBM, and i look forward to seeing your before and after pics.

 

[-2z-]

Try making a schedule and eating by the clock, just eat when it is time (hungry or not).

Yup....eating is your job. Now get to work!!

 

[pu12en12g]

ALL I have to say is, if u truley arnt gaininbg off of M1T, throwing in 4-ad isnt going to do much at all in sense of "sparking up ur m1t gains", and u wont see much increase off of 4-ad in itself.

I believe the reason for the 4-ad suggestion was mainly for increased appetite.

I agree with Romac. A minimum of 2g per lb is where I see the best gains. I don't know all of the science behind a ridiculously high protein intake... but it works. I also recommend calorie-dense foods like Steel cut oats.

 

[Skark]

Well if PA says that, and you believe him, i'll leave it to both of you to try to bulk on below maintenance protein. Best of luck bulking on .6g per lb of LBM, and i look forward to seeing your before and after pics.

I have NO clue what you are talking about. I am taking 200 grams of protein each day, thats 1.15g per lb of lean mass. I am in a CALORIE deficit.

And YES you can build muscle in a calorie deficit, especially using the hopped-up Meso Labs M1T :twisted:

And YES, Pat Arnold knows his crap.

And YES, everytime I get a pic taken the camera breaks :frustrate

 

[Romac]

I have NO clue what you are talking about. I am taking 200 grams of protein each day, thats 1.15g per lb of lean mass. I am in a CALORIE deficit.

And YES you can build muscle in a calorie deficit, especially using the hopped-up Meso Labs M1T :twisted:

And YES, Pat Arnold knows his crap.

And YES, everytime I get a pic taken the camera breaks :frustrate

I have no idea what you're talking about...maybe you need to read this again a little slower this time:

I SAID:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romac
you may be able to gain muscle while eating under maintenance calories by using fat to do the work of building BUT it is 100% impossible to build muscle when your protein is at or below maintenance.

YOU REPLIED:
Thats not what the top chemists like Pat Arnold say....Thats what added Nitrogen retention is all about.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I've done 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off and 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. both had their merits but I prefer the 4week cycle for bulking.
I've stacked m1t with 4ad and by itself. I rpefer it by itself unless it's with clen and t3 which is when I use the 2 week on 2 week off cycle.

 

[TheUsual]

I have no idea what you're talking about...maybe you need to read this again a little slower this time:

I SAID:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romac
you may be able to gain muscle while eating under maintenance calories by using fat to do the work of building BUT it is 100% impossible to build muscle when your protein is at or below maintenance.

YOU REPLIED:
Thats not what the top chemists like Pat Arnold say....Thats what added Nitrogen retention is all about.

How do you even define protein "maintenance". There is no way of defining that due to many factors: absorption rates varying by what is consumed, the fact that we do not know how much protein is required to build and maintain muscle, etc. It's easy to define maintenance calories but not maintenance protein, just a thought.

 

[Romac]

How do you even define protein "maintenance". There is no way of defining that due to many factors: absorption rates varying by what is consumed, the fact that we do not know how much protein is required to build and maintain muscle, etc. It's easy to define maintenance calories but not maintenance protein, just a thought.

yes by hypothetically there is such an amount, and of course it is dependent on every other aspect of your nutrition, recouperation, and training.

Just because we may never exactly, to the gram, be able know what our maintenance protein requirements are doesn't mean there isn't a maintenance level, and the same can be said for a caloric mentenance level. And if there is such a thing as maintenance protein level, then it would be 110% impossuble to build muscle if you were intaking less than that.

Although we might not know these numbers exactly, we can estimate pretty well. For instance I know that i can maintain 160lbs lbm and 10%BF if i eat 1200 calories per day including about 140g of protein per day, and maintain approximately the same activity level that i currently maintain. My actual maintnenace levels are certain to be different numbers than that but i know i can eat that without gaining or losing.