- 06-07-2011, 02:41 PM
Just for some background:
32, Powerlifter, never had taken PHs
I started Mathadrol Extreme...yes I realize a nice choice for my first time...but I figured I'm 32 and 4 weeks isn't a long time. The stuff defintely worked and within 2 weeks I added 20 lbs to my bench and finally hit 400. I also went from 205 to 212. I was elated!
My paranoia hit overload when I had my annual checkup with my Dr. during the cycle. I was in my 3rd week when my Dr. called and said my Liver function was high, testosterone low and cholesterol wasn't in a great place either. I'm not ignorant, I realize these are the side effects (didn't know about the HDL and LDL though). I stopped taking the pills right away and began popping Beast Super Test in hopes to get everything back to normal. This was all a fwe days ago and I had a follow up visit with my Dr. and he pretty much scared the **** out of me with talks of Dyalisis in 10 years. I explained to him the Methylated product and how it affects the liver...he reccomonded to stay 'clean', stop taking Ibuprofin and eat less protien and then come back in two months for another blood test.
My main question is...in general how normal is my reaction to what would be expected? Granted we are all different...but given that I don't drink...is this all in the norm?
I still plan on taking the Beast Super Test seeing as it naturally raises T levels and helps the Live....or should I quit that as well?
Last edited by Dillznit; 06-07-2011 at 02:43 PM. Reason: repeated myself
- 06-07-2011, 02:46 PM
not to bust your chops man, but...did you take a SERM afterwards? did you take any support supps? did you do any research on the product you were taking?
06-07-2011, 02:57 PM
I took a Live Support during the cycle. I went to a local supplement store to find a good PCT. The manager pointed me to Beast and said it's what a lot of people get. In his opinion it was all I needed for a PCT and SERM.
I did do some research...reading this forum and others and it's a mixed bag. Everyone seems against Methylated products but I also read what seemed to be written reasonably that they were a little overly beaten on.
This is probably one of those things where I would've been better off not knowing what was going on with me rather than getting blood work done.
Everyone has to expirment and I'm not dismissing my acountability I just hope this is the usual course for these sort of things. The Dr. looked at results from 2 years ago and says to me...I could write on paper on the differences of these numbers.
06-07-2011, 03:12 PM
bingo !!! lesson learned...never ever go to your local supplement store and ask them for advice for something for pct..most people that work at places like that dont have a clue about doing a PH,S or real AAS or what pct consists of..especially the morons at gnc.. liver support and test boost is part of what you would use on pct but for on cycle...no way you need on cycle support sups that you buy on line...not at gnc.
06-07-2011, 03:12 PM
All these sides are completely normal, you should know that bloodwork will be f'd up in the middle of this cycle, there have been people who have had bloodwork on superdrol and had HDL that was almost unreadable
06-07-2011, 03:19 PM
when you take a prohormone it can cause your blood pressure to go up,your cholesterol to go up, enlarged prostate , ect..ect.. thats why we use cycle support supps like cycle assist by CEL that has things in it to help with these sides and not just as a liver protectant which it has in it also... heres a good read for you.
No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT
Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Reputation: Most popular SERM for PCT
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Reputation: Very popular on this board
Pros: Much less toxic.
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Moving down the PCT Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:
B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.
Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Because it is not an androgenic steroid, there is minimal heptatoxicity associated with it's alkylation. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)
7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)
7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.
Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.
Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.
At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.
Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
06-07-2011, 03:20 PM
But now you know to lay off the bad stuff. I would be more concerned with your heart and kidneys. Your liver is the only organ that can take a beating and regenerate. Take it easy with the body poisons for awhile and see how this condition progresses over the months or years. No point in trying to get big if you get ill and lose it all anyway.
To get un-naturally big, you gotta do un-natural things
06-07-2011, 03:21 PM
@no reason If you have any good recs for some resources online on what to take and when I would appreciate it! I found some good info on this forum after the fact. I was in my panic mode and after the phone call from my Dr made a bee-line for Vitamin Shoppe. I went online and was looking for a good post-cycle. I can't remember the supplement everyone said to get but they had it there...he talked me out of it. I also read to just take about 4grams of Tribulis.
06-07-2011, 03:23 PM
06-07-2011, 03:25 PM
06-07-2011, 03:44 PM
what i would do as of now... stay off any ph's for awhile until you get all that you mentioned above back to normal.. buy some liver assist xt by SNS (SERIOUS NUTRITION SOLUTIONS) or some LIV52 to help support your liver function.. get some hawthorn berry and celery seed extract to help with blood pressure and to help lower cholesterol you can get these at walmart... use tribulus or DAA to heip boost testosterone. dont do another cycle without taking cycle support supplements while on cycle.. use cycle assist by competitive edge labs. research and learn how to do a proper pct with using a SERM along with other supplements to regulate estrogen and restore testosterone.
06-07-2011, 03:54 PM
Thanks for the help! I will go tonight and grab what I need. The liver pills I bought are Advanced Cycle Support Rx.
Do you reccomond stopping Beast Super Test now? Are you familiar with the product?
It's funny...I guess a shame but even with the health concerns I'm more worried about being strong.
Last edited by Dillznit; 06-07-2011 at 03:55 PM. Reason: typo
06-07-2011, 04:02 PM
if thats the one by iron mag labs...then yeah thats good stuff and perfect to use while on cycle.. did you start loading it 2 weeks before cycle and use this while on cycle ?
if you did then im thinking what they recommened for the dosage might have not been enough..they only recommend 4 caps a day..with CEL cycle assist you take 8 caps a day and it has the same ingredients as advanced cycle support rx plus a little more..that could be a possibilty ..i could be wrong .. also yes keep taking the beast super test as recommended it contains alot of other stuff like liver support and reversitol to help estrogen control.. i can see why its so expensive..lol. most otc stuff is really expensive. also remeber you got these tests done while you were on cycle..so what you saw was expected...now that you are not on cycle give your body some time to get back to normal.
06-07-2011, 04:17 PM
Do some research on lab values, what they mean, what high or low levels indicate, and normal ranges. And then make sure you get a copy of your labs from your doctor so that you can draw more realistic conclusions based on how bad your values are. A doctor that says your going to end up on dialysis from slightly elevated blood urea nitrogen, and creatinine on a simple blood and urine panel (when he knows you eat alot of protein as a weightlifter should) is trying to scare you or is retarted. Your lab values sound exactly like every lab I've ever seen or heard of on a methylated ph cycle and we are all still alive and kicking(well,at least the smart and safe ones are). I truly hope you are looking for a new doctor.
Btw, I've met around 500 dialysis patients, holy sh$t, not one of them was a bodybuilder who ate too much protein.
06-07-2011, 04:25 PM
06-07-2011, 04:57 PM
I can't thank you guys enough for your help and sharing your knowledge with me!
Yes it is the ironmaglabs one...who also makes the methadrol extreme.
I began taking the mathadrol extreme as read on the back of the bottle 1/2/2/1 I was taking the liver pills at night, only 2 and was planning to increase it to 4 after the 4 week cycle. I was in the process of researching a PCT to help build the testosterone back up but was cut short as you know.
He showed me the values from awhile back and the current and basically said my numbers match an 80 year old. With that said...I agree with both of your stances on doctors...and it's one of my biggest hang ups. They are general practioners and not involved in supplements/ and weight lifters. Our bodies/ our diets are far different from the average person. I see things like the Primal diet and get enraged...it's basically the standard gain muscle plan. Anyways...I'll be looking for a new Dr...especially since he also prescribed me a colonoscopy. :/
I will finish off my cycle of the Beast Super Test and include some of the Cholesterol support as mentioned. I don't think my pre-workout coktail of 4 redline/ 37.5 mg of ephedrine and 400mg of caffeine has anything to do with my problems but my heart and blood pressure were awesome...it was just the liver/kidney and testosterone.
I will also ask him for a copy of my blood results! Great idea!!!
Last edited by Dillznit; 06-07-2011 at 04:58 PM. Reason: typo
06-07-2011, 05:25 PM
superdrol by its self is very toxic..i have never used methadrol extreme but i know that it has 3 compounds in one with superdrol being one of them so i can just imagine that it has to be more toxic. also only taking 2 of the advanced cycle support rx pills from what im thinking couldnt of been enough to help you from sides while on cycle... i dont think even 4 would be sufficient...like i said with the CEL cycle assist you have to take 8 pills a day while on cycle and it has the same ingredients plus some.
06-07-2011, 06:55 PM
Just to add perspective to the liver function side of this question/concern.
Anabolic steroids and the athlete: a case study
Edward Oklobdzija and David Weyrauch
This paper examines the pharmacokinetic activities of anabolic steroids and their potential deleterious effects. A review of literature reveals the most significant pathological sequelae resulting from anabolic use to be peliosis hepatis and liver cell carcinoma. These ill effects have been more closely associated with those steroids whose chemical structures are specifically alkylated at the 17th carbon in the Alpha position as opposed to their Beta esterified counterparts. Testing of these drugs was attempted by way of a single case study. A 23 yr old male bodybuilder was subject to both oral and parenteral forms of steroid over a six week period of his training program. Serum, urinalysis and subjective parameters were monitored before during and after steroid administration. The results show elevated levels of urea, creatinine, bilirubin, CPK, AST, ALT and LDH. In this case study, the elevated parameters appear to be more a function of muscle breakdown induced by a combination of severe exercise and intramuscular injection than a measure of organ (liver) pathology.
06-08-2011, 10:56 AM
Great Paper...although...I wish I had the chemistry background to fully appreciate it. But the quick gist I got was that that numbers generated by blood results have a variety of factors mainly depending on protien synthesis and muscle breakdown from physical performances.
06-08-2011, 06:53 PM
The way that I think about it is this: Supraphysiological levels of muscle growth are going to cause supraphysiological of a number of things - including a liver put under supraphysiological stress. Your overall health and genetics will determine if your liver can handle that. Lipids are another area that get thrown extremely out of whack. If the doctor does not know better, then they're going to be extremely concerned.
Anyways, here is a link and more reading on those specific parameters.
What do elevated liver tests (AST and ALT) mean?
AST (SGOT) and ALT (SGPT) are sensitive indicators of liver damage or injury from different types of disease. But it must be emphasized that higher-than-normal levels of these liver enzymes should not be automatically equated with liver disease. They may mean liver problems or they may not. For example, elevations of these enzymes can occur with muscle damage. The interpretation of elevated AST and ALT levels depends upon the entire clinical evaluation of an individual, and so it is best done by physicians experienced in evaluating liver disease and muscle disease.
Moreover, the precise levels of these enzymes do not correlate well with the extent of liver damage or the prognosis (outlook). Thus, the exact levels of AST (SGOT) and ALT (SGPT) cannot be used to determine the degree of liver disease or predict the future. For example, individuals with acute viral hepatitis A may develop very high AST and ALT levels (sometimes in the thousands of units/liter range). But most people with acute viral hepatitis A recover fully without residual liver disease. To the contrary, people with chronic hepatitis C infection typically have only a little elevation in their AST and ALT levels. Some of these individuals may have quietly developed chronic liver disease such as chronic hepatitis and cirrhosis (advanced scarring of the liver).
It is, therefore, worth mentioning that these liver enzymes do not give an indication of the function of the liver. Sometimes they are mistakenly referred to as “liver function tests” or LFTs, but it is a misnomer commonly used even by most physicians.
06-08-2011, 11:17 PM
This is really simple. You had blood tests done right in the middle of a cycle. You didn't do enough research, so you had no idea that during a cycle, your blood test will look like CRAP. Shot liver values, low test, etc. It goes back to normal after a solid PCT. lol
06-09-2011, 01:36 PM
It is extremely nice to see bodybuilders that think about their health, longevity, and the long-term/short-term effects of 'supplements', instead of saying ''Dude, these pills will get me huge bro!'' I have a tremendous amount of repect for anyone that is willing to get hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and spend the better part of a decade in school, to become a doctor. However, I have spent time with Docs in the ER, that use critical thinking, and when they see labs come back elevated they are a bit more level-headed about how they respond, usually saying something like, ''Good, it looks like that organ is doing its job, lets try to find out what the patient is doing to put extra stress on that organ." Not, " That organ is failing!!! Aaahhhh!!!"
06-09-2011, 04:51 PM
11-12-2012, 07:06 AM
I think you can still carry on taking if its really increasing your T level and helping you live with ease. When you fell that now its enough and all ok for you then you can leave it. I think its also depend on your physical fitness and muscular strength. But not to bother your self for it.
11-12-2012, 08:14 AM
Liv. 52 or livercare by Himalaya for the liver. Man meth compounds are nerve wrecking. It's like u can feel ur liver dying!!! Lol jk but in the back of my mind I was like o **** epistane is ass raping my liver
11-12-2012, 08:54 AM
Nice bump to a one and a half year old thread guys
Use code "fl3x10" to get a free shirt with your purchase at Mind and Muscle
11-12-2012, 09:23 AM
11-12-2012, 06:33 PM
11-13-2012, 12:49 AM
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