To deca, or not to deca?

tbinnerarity

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Planning out my next bulk cycle. I've been thinking about adding Deca to it. As of right now it will be about 15 weeks of Test E at 600mg and about 6 weeks of dbol to kickstart (both of which i have ran before).

I'd like to try Deca, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it, considering how suppressive it is. Is it really as suppressive as people say? Or should I add it in with a strong PCT? What do you guys think?
 
CCV3

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300mg a week is cool. Maybe front a little bit the first 2 weeks, 600mg, then hit 300mg the rest.

I don't like Deca anyways so I will always advise against it.
 

tbinnerarity

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Thanks. Im pretty sure what dosage to run, just trying to decide if I should use it or not. A lot of people seem to suggest against it.
 
RoadBlocK

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I think deca is awesome, but you have to be prepared for what to expect from it.
 

Massiah

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You can add in deca, but if your test only cycles are working...why bother. If you are really worried you can add a little HcG into the mix to keep the boys going throughout the cycle.
 
waynaferd

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I ran it 300/week with 600 test e/week, and all it did was give me insomnia, make me tired all day, bloated me up nice, and broke my boner :D

I read it was a great mass builder and good for the joints, but I'm never using it again.
 

WerdUp

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Well, i've never run it, but like the previous poster stated. If the test, dbol cycles are working why suppress your system even more? Did you consider the additional cost of HCG (if you dont already) and Prolactin control (expensive as hell imo) that you may have with adding the deca.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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You are going to be shutdown anyway with hat cycle so I dont see any harm in adding it.
 
DetroitHammer

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This is a cut-and-paste form one of the studies I have confidence in regarding deca:

..Synthetic nandrolone metabolite, named estren (19-Nor-4-androstene-3α,17β-diol)11. Estren was found to only weakly bind the estrogen receptor, showing no real activity at that site and possessing a 300-fold lower binding affinity. Yet it mimicked the actions of estrogens in osteoblasts. Estren was however shown to be as active as DHT at activating certain androgen receptor related transcripts. The same study also demonstrated that estren was capable of activating estrogen specific constructs in the DNA through the androgen receptor. Estren is a metabolite of nandrolone through the 3α-HSD enzyme. So in first instance one might suggest we start looking for something that blocks this enzyme. However I mentioned that this steroid was synthetic. Nandrolone is a natural androgen. So why does estren not appear naturally in the body ? Well mostly because it is a very labile structure, that is quickly converted back to nandrolone. The problem however is that the researchers noted that despite similar activity on several constructs as DHT, it bound with a 200-fold lower activity to the androgen receptor. The researchers found that the high androgenic potency of estren resulted in its conversion to the more stable molecule nandrolone, almost 50% in 4-6 hours, and no less than 95% within 24 hours. From this it can be concluded that the effects of estren via the AR are mediated by its metabolite nandrolone, and it is in fact nandrolone that activates estrogen specific transcripts via binding and activating the androgen receptor. Now the study also noted that binding of DHT activated estrogen-related transcripts, so this is not uncommon, but DHT did so with a 30 to 100-fold lower potency than estren. The authors concluded :

“Finally, the unexpected estren-dependent activation(and by extension nandrolone-dependent activation) of ERE-driven gene expression in cells that express AR, which occurs with far greater potency relative to DHT, predicts the possibility of some troublesome feminizing effects in males, which still await examination."

This is indeed a further blow to nandrolone’s already damaged image as being a safe steroid. As my co-author astutely pointed out, one could potentially treat this problem with the addition of chemicals that block the estrogen response element, such as piperidinediones12. However I’m not aware of any commercial preparations with such products, and finding them may prove difficult. So until further notice the only way to block nandrolone’s very potent estrogenic effects is to block the androgen receptor, and with it any and all anabolic effect the drug may have.
 
DetroitHammer

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My point in posting the above was two-fold: Simply running test as a base will not help and traditional AIs will not stop the apparent estrogen related sides.
 
GLHF

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1-15 test e 600mg/week
1-6 dbol 50mg ED
1-14 EQ 600mg/week OR 1-10/12/14 Tren E 400mg/week
 
CCV3

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Thanks. Im pretty sure what dosage to run, just trying to decide if I should use it or not. A lot of people seem to suggest against it.
I mean it's all user pref really.
You have people like Detroit Hammer who live by it. I have friends who run it 9 months on (ya, I know). For me, I don't like it.

So many negatives with one positive (to me).
The only pro is that I'm stronger. Well, if you want brute strength and want your lifts to go up by 30-40%, then run Deca. If you are cool with looking like a rollie pollie then run it.

It's summer.
We're trying to stay chizzled out here...
 

hdcontent

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Have you done research about it?

As somebody else said, as long as you are aware of the ED sides, go for it.

It's a personal risk. I would not do it.
 

MakaveliThaDon

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I mean it's all user pref really.
You have people like Detroit Hammer who live by it. I have friends who run it 9 months on (ya, I know). For me, I don't like it.

So many negatives with one positive (to me).
The only pro is that I'm stronger. Well, if you want brute strength and want your lifts to go up by 30-40%, then run Deca. If you are cool with looking like a rollie pollie then run it.

It's summer.
We're trying to stay chizzled out here...

What are the strength gains like compared to something like var?
 
CCV3

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Ehh, maybe at first but even at that it wasn't like "wow, I'm on anavar". It's really light. Sooner or later it just becomes like candy.
 
GLHF

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Ehh, maybe at first but even at that it wasn't like "wow, I'm on anavar". It's really light. Sooner or later it just becomes like candy.
thats how i felt about anavar and winstrol.


but to the OP, why do u want to run deca? its good for joint lubrication and strength gain. so i would say 2-300mg/wk would be perfect on top of the 600test. the sides should be minimal...just take an ai if u feel like u need it.

so:
1-15 Test E 600mg/wk
1-14 Deca 300mg/week


i would say winstrol compares to dbol in building lean muscle and strength. dbol gives you more size, but thats just bloat and ****. deca + winstrol is a good combo seriously. usually ppl take winstrol for strength/cuting but run into joint problems and cant really add more weight. if ur joints are good, and they should be from the deca, you would keep gaining strength but without looking like the micheline man. i think thats more important looking good all year around.
 
LyingSac

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Planning out my next bulk cycle. I've been thinking about adding Deca to it. As of right now it will be about 15 weeks of Test E at 600mg and about 6 weeks of dbol to kickstart (both of which i have ran before).

I'd like to try Deca, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it, considering how suppressive it is. Is it really as suppressive as people say? Or should I add it in with a strong PCT? What do you guys think?
I'm gonna do it...next bulking cycle...basically for the joint healing affect...i'm 52 years old and tore up...lol...i'ma go test/deca thru the winter....then tren/winstrol in the spring...i'm on 350mg a week of tren (close cousin to deca)...500 test...going well...balls haven't shrunk up to bad...but i'm staying loaded on LH precursors...Zinc, eggs, vitamin d3 and zma...saving my hcg for PCT...anyway...good luck
 
DetroitHammer

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I'm gonna do it...next bulking cycle...basically for the joint healing affect...i'm 52 years old and tore up...lol...i'ma go test/deca thru the winter....then tren/winstrol in the spring...i'm on 350mg a week of tren (close cousin to deca)...500 test...going well...balls haven't shrunk up to bad...but i'm staying loaded on LH precursors...Zinc, eggs, vitamin d3 and zma...saving my hcg for PCT...anyway...good luck
You're doing PCT at 52? And saving HCG for PCT? And you think Deca is a close cousin to Tren? Then tren/winstrol as a stand alone?

Are you serious?
 

gymrat827

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go with EQ instead, lubes up the joints good and is very similar without the bloat. If you do run deca hop on adex to keep the bloat down
 
DetroitHammer

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go with EQ instead, lubes up the joints good and is very similar without the bloat. If you do run deca hop on adex to keep the bloat down
Adex will not help Deca sides at all... In fact, none of the AIs will.
 
LyingSac

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I hearyou Detroit....but lets say this ain't my first rodeo...we all respond different....i'm not sure what you meant by pct at 52?...i've got clomid too...everybody screams to use test with tren...but i've never had any sides other than mild night sweats and takes a little while to get Jumbo Jones working...this may sound crazy but mentally i'm fine on tren alone...as far as tren and deca being cousins...both work great for me...definately get more puff on deca then tren (me) and both or 19nors...now i've done winstrol and i've done tren...this would be the first time together...i think for me it would work...i'm not a mean and nasty dood anymore, but i can focus on what i need to focus on to get thru that cycle...now i know you have superior knowledge on the subject and i've never been smart enough to debate...but i'm going on my body, goals and limitations and experience.....the reason i read everybody's post is ...we all have different takes and experience on different things...but i do appreciate bro....i do....out
 
DetroitHammer

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I hearyou Detroit....but lets say this ain't my first rodeo...we all respond different....i'm not sure what you meant by pct at 52?...i've got clomid too...everybody screams to use test with tren...but i've never had any sides other than mild night sweats and takes a little while to get Jumbo Jones working...this may sound crazy but mentally i'm fine on tren alone...as far as tren and deca being cousins...both work great for me...definately get more puff on deca then tren (me) and both or 19nors...now i've done winstrol and i've done tren...this would be the first time together...i think for me it would work...i'm not a mean and nasty dood anymore, but i can focus on what i need to focus on to get thru that cycle...now i know you have superior knowledge on the subject and i've never been smart enough to debate...but i'm going on my body, goals and limitations and experience.....the reason i read everybody's post is ...we all have different takes and experience on different things...but i do appreciate bro....i do....out
I was surprised because almost everyone our age is on TRT. Your normal serum test must be impressive to want to return to it. Mine was around 200 when I went on TRT for life. That's why I made that comment since most just stay on TRT and blast/cruise at this age. But if your test levels are good, then great.

Just be careful on tren and deca, especially without a test base. If your normal serum test is good, you've picked to two most likely to kill a good thing. But, the good thing is you can always jump on TRT and have a blast all year round.
 
CoorsLight126

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I'd cut the dbol kickstart back to 3 wks, at that point I'd run that deca the remaining 12 wks of your cycle, taking you right to the 15 wk mark
 
GLHF

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Adex will not help Deca sides at all... In fact, none of the AIs will.
wow seriously????

not even letrozole?
i thought an AI would help with deca sides, but it would take away from gains. damn... i know an ai wouldnt do **** about deca ****, but test should help.

i know you would need prolactin control, since its like tren. and prolactin enduced gyno is not the same as estrogen induced.

i guess i answered my own qustion.
 

dubplate6

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how about running NPP instead of Deca? I am going to run NPP in my next cycle. I hear it reduces alot of the bloat over deca. I am using a high test base with a low amount of NPP
 
DetroitHammer

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I posted this earlier, maybe even in this thread, but this zeros in on the AI question...

"The estrogenic and progestagenic nature of nandrolone have been a topic of much debate over the years. Estrogen-sensitive nandrolone users have always complained about inexplicable estrogen-like symptoms that cannot be treated with conventional anti-estrogen therapies. Because of its more estrogen-like structure due to the lack of a 19th carbon atom, nandrolone shows considerably less affinity than testosterone for the aromatase enzyme that converts androgens to estrogens. Nandrolone has only approximately 1/5th the affinity for aromatase of testosterone in vitro18. There is more than ample evidence to suggest that in vivo this is probably a lot less. As occurs with all steroids that do not readily form estrogen or estrogen metabolites yet somehow seem to display what is perceived as estrogenic characteristics, a multitude of wild and unsubstantiated theories soon sprang up. This has caused and still causes great confusion amongst most steroid users....As you can see from the table above, taken from that study, nandrolone was about 60% as estrogenic in nature as estradiol itself. So far nothing special. All this tells us is that nandrolone has very potent estrogenic action that cannot be explained by aromatization, which is what we already knew. At best this has some shock value by demonstrating just HOW estrogenic it really is. The second study however was undertaken by the same researchers to hopefully shed some light on the situation. It did not. But it disproved all commonly accepted theories supported to date. In the study the researchers administered nandrolone with either an aromatase blocker, a progesterone receptor blocker or an estrogen receptor blocker. As was to be expected the aromatase blocker had no effect whatsoever on the estrogenic activity of nandrolone. More surprisingly, neither did the progesterone receptor blocker. Which also strikes a blow for basically any involvement of progestational activity in the development of common estrogenic side-effects associated with AAS use. And lastly, and even more surprisingly, the estrogen receptor blocker’s effect on the estrogenic activity was just barely significant. This suggests that nandrolone’s direct binding (or that of its metabolites) to the estrogen receptor played a very limited role. At the end of that all we could state was that nandrolone was 60% as estrogenic as estradiol itself, but more than 55% of that could not be explained."
 
bigzach1234

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how about running NPP instead of Deca? I am going to run NPP in my next cycle. I hear it reduces alot of the bloat over deca. I am using a high test base with a low amount of NPP
bro im running npp for the first time ever.. never ran long ester nandro though(deca).. all the sides and horror stories ive heard about deca are absolutely non existent... no bloat what so ever... lean quality quality mass.. like a poor mans var or primo.. in terms of quality muscle added.. slow quality muscle gains.. strength increases but nothing like nandro deca.. prob cause i have zero water weight and bloat and not ridiculous weight gain.. joints feel great... sex drive thru the roof.. when i first started sleep was terrible.. switched from prami to caber.. and no issues at all... non stop boners.. smooth joints after lifting heavy everyday... **** makes me real hungry.. but i legit wake up lean and hard everyday... i reccomend this for anyone who has had troubnle with nandro deca before....

started with 750mg test with 450mg npp.. bumped to 1 ml eod... 875mg test/525mg for the last couple weeks to finish strong


kind of wish i had some var to throw in there... test p or e/npp/var... super stack.. super lean gains.. hard as a rock with no bloat and quality keepable mass... that will prob be my next cycle somewhere down the road
 

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