Formestane

[gaijininjapan]

So I searched, and came up with a bunch of irrelevant threads, so I decided to start a topic since I did ask about formestane in my other PCT threads, but maybe those didn't generate many views due to topic.

So, Foremestane. Everywere I look, it is shown as suitale for standalone, on-cycle, and PCT. However, some reputable people here recommend not using it as PCT or on-cycle. ??!!??

Mrsupps and CEL's formestanzol/foremestane pages both show that this is suitable for all 3 types of uses.

So what gives? Why souldn't I use it stacked or for PCT?

I will be starting my MDrol cycle soon, and the formastanzol is enroute. I was originally thinking about using it in low dose (50mg) during PCT or perhaps in the latter (3rd-4th wk) part of my cycle since it won't be here at the start. Now I'm considering just using it after my PCT when I go into a cut.

Any suggestions/comments?

 

[Rodja]

I did a run of Form over the winter along with PhytoTest and it was great. Definitely save it for after PCT.

 

[AntiFaith]

just brought some of this to help with gyno, hoping its gonna help

 

[jtcastro1]

I started formestane last night because I ended pct 1 week ago and got some bad rebound gyno

 

[Rodja]

Form is not what you want for gyno. Letro, arimidex, or aromasin would be much better options.

 

[mw1]

Form is not what you want for gyno. Letro, arimidex, or aromasin would be much better options.

Have you ever read any of Dinoii posts on Topical Formestane? He was actually a proponent of using it with 1,4AD for "gyno"

 

[Rodja]

Have you ever read any of Dinoii posts on Topical Formestane? He was actually a proponent of using it with 1,4AD for "gyno"

Yes, but he is in PCT, which is a horrible time for formestane.

 

[jtcastro1]

So are you saying formestane wot help during pct or in my case 1 wk after pct for gyno?

 

[Rodja]

Long story short: it will hurt your PCT.

 

[jtcastro1]

Long story short: it will hurt your PCT.

I read it has potential to convert into 4hydroxytestosterone and could supress hpta recovery. But I heard the best time to run it is right after pct is completed.

 

[Rodja]

I read it has potential to convert into 4hydroxytestosterone and could supress hpta recovery. But I heard the best time to run it is right after pct is completed.

You kinda answered yourself with this. It's great when used post-PCT, but not in PCT.

 

[jtcastro1]

Yeah i guess your right lol. But couldyou explain why it's best used post pct?

 

[Rodja]

It can suppress HPTA recovery. What other reasons do you need?

 

[jtcastro1]

I understand that's the reason not to use it in pct but what are some benefits of using it post pct?

 

[mw1]

It can suppress HPTA recovery. What other reasons do you need?

At what dose ?

 

[jtcastro1]

Not sure what dose he's talking about but this is what I'm running post pct
Day 1-10: 150mg (75 morning, 75 night)
Day 11-20: 100mg (50 morning, 50 night)
Day 21-30: 50mg all at night

 

[chocolatemilk]

It can suppress HPTA recovery. What other reasons do you need?

Why do you not mention the fact that that is dose dependent?

 

[Rodja]

It's impossible to say which dose will cause the effects since it varies from person to person due to enzymatic processes. Regardless, it's a risk that is not worth taking in a time such as PCT.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Ok well it would be nice if you mentioned that as well next time...

The doses recommended for PCT are very well under the dose that may cause HPTA suppression.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Ok well it would be nice if you mentioned that as well next time...

The doses recommended for PCT are very well under the dose that may cause HPTA suppression.

What's the conversion rate? You've said this before but I never got a source for that info.

 

[gaijininjapan]

So does Foremestane cause HPTA RECOVERY suppression, or does it cause HPTA suppression? I'll be getting blood work after PCT, and I want to know what I need to look for to find out if I'm fully recovered before jumping into a cut w/ formestane.

 

[jtcastro1]

It can cause hpta recovery Supression but not at reasonable doses. There is a conversion rate but I read it converts into 4hydroxytestosterone at ridiculous doses. So if some one runs it during pct at the dosing protocol I posted earlier, would that be a good product to throw into pct

 

[Rodja]

Ok well it would be nice if you mentioned that as well next time...

The doses recommended for PCT are very well under the dose that may cause HPTA suppression.

Sorry this information doesn't fit into your marketing scheme. To quote your boss, the king of bad information, "...the reason forma-stanzol and would be a way better choice over clomid or nolva. Because it works as both a serm and a ai. Add in the hcgenerate and it only gets better."

Really!? Formestane works as both a SERM and an AI? That is completely and 100% impossible. Might as well throw in your $100 test booster, too, you know, just to feel the power of HCGenerate. BTW, did you ever get around to posting that bloodwork from last year?

It can cause hpta recovery Supression but not at reasonable doses. There is a conversion rate but I read it converts into 4hydroxytestosterone at ridiculous doses. So if some one runs it during pct at the dosing protocol I posted earlier, would that be a good product to throw into pct

It will convert to 4OHT regardless of dose. However, the amount that it converts to may not be that high. Regardless, it makes no sense to include it in PCT.

 

[jtcastro1]

But would you mind telling me some benefits of running it Post pct

 

[Rodja]

But would you mind telling me some benefits of running it Post pct

It's an AI that metabolizes into a mild steroid. I don't think any more needs to be said.

 

[jtcastro1]

Would it be okay to run epistane like a week after formestane is done?

 

[Rodja]

I suppose, but you'd want to get pre-cycle bloods done to make sure your lipids are in check.

 

[jtcastro1]

Okay I just want to be sure running formestane right before a cycle won't hurt my gains on Epi

 

[mw1]

It's an AI that metabolizes into a mild steroid. I don't think any more needs to be said.

But at doses a lot higher than are recommended .

 

[mw1]

Yes, but he is in PCT, which is a horrible time for formestane.

You must have missd where he stated that Topical Formesatne would be THE product to use in PCT for someone experiencing gyno from 1,4 AD:rasp:

 

[chocolatemilk]

Sorry this information doesn't fit into your marketing scheme. To quote your boss, the king of bad information, "...the reason forma-stanzol and would be a way better choice over clomid or nolva. Because it works as both a serm and a ai. Add in the hcgenerate and it only gets better."

Really!? Formestane works as both a SERM and an AI? That is completely and 100% impossible. Might as well throw in your $100 test booster, too, you know, just to feel the power of HCGenerate. BTW, did you ever get around to posting that bloodwork from last year?

It will convert to 4OHT regardless of dose. However, the amount that it converts to may not be that high. Regardless, it makes no sense to include it in PCT.

Just saw this... and lol'd

There are flavones in Forma-stanzol... there is DIM, chrysin, and 7,8 benzoflavone in there... that is why he said it acts like a SERM as well. Certain flavones act as natural SERMs. You should look up the ingredients to products before jumping to silly conclusions.

I was simply pointing out that it seems like you are spreading fear propaganda without even mentioning the dose dependent nature of Formestane for HPTA suppression. But you go off on an attack completely unrelated to the topic… Typical.

Don’t expect me to jump in the mud with you buddy. I think I will be a little more respectful.

And you really shouldn’t be talking like that. You guys are selling DHEA isomers with an ester inside grapefruit juice for $125-$200. Yet I have not once mentioned anything about them or passed judgment on them because I have not tried them. You should do the same especially since you are a rep.

 

[luclyluciano]

What's the conversion rate? You've said this before but I never got a source for that info.

With all due respect, most of what I have read indicates you would need large doses above the recommended dose to effect recovery mainly because of the conversion to a mild hormone.

But doesn't the reduction in estrogen boost test production when dosed as recommended? There are those that claim this is not proven yet those that state the opposite. I believe the conversion to hormone is negligible compared to the estrogen reduction/testosterone increases.

So yes, it is my understanding it is dose dependent.

 

[Rodja]

Just saw this... and lol'd

There are flavones in Forma-stanzol... there is DIM, chrysin, and 7,8 benzoflavone in there... that is why he said it acts like a SERM as well. Certain flavones act as natural SERMs. You should look up the ingredients to products before jumping to silly conclusions.

I was simply pointing out that it seems like you are spreading fear propaganda without even mentioning the dose dependent nature of Formestane for HPTA suppression. But you go off on an attack completely unrelated to the topic… Typical.

Don’t expect me to jump in the mud with you buddy. I think I will be a little more respectful.

And you really shouldn’t be talking like that. You guys are selling DHEA isomers with an ester inside grapefruit juice for $125-$200. Yet I have not once mentioned anything about them or passed judgment on them because I have not tried them. You should do the same especially since you are a rep.

You (meaning NTBM) are always spouting off about how amazing your products are and when anyone proposes a question that goes against the marketing, there is always a claim that bloods and/or QC tests are on the way to support the claims. Of course, these never get posted. My point here is that this is easily something that could be answered if there was some R&D put forth on your end.

Instead, the same **** gets dragged along and it reaches an endpass. If you'll also notice, not at any point did I say to ditch the Form and plug PP. To suggest I am running a fear campaign is ludicrous. Like I said, I think formestane is a great compound under certain situations, but PCT is not one of them. 4-6 weeks after a successful PCT, a stack of nettle or Testofen along with formestane makes for a solid recomp stack.

 

[standon]

He didnt really pimp pp he just didnt answer anything..Anyways what is formestane best for as a standalone ai cycle with some natty test booster for what sort of gains?>

 

[luclyluciano]

Does't the reduction of estrogen increase the body's production of testosterone? Isn't this what many AI's such as Erase are marketed on?

 

[Rodja]

He didnt really pimp pp he just didnt answer anything..Anyways what is formestane best for as a standalone ai cycle with some natty test booster for what sort of gains?>

I answered in my post above: in conjunction with a test booster that increases free test, but not until 4-6 week post PCT or as a cutter.

Does't the reduction of estrogen increase the body's production of testosterone? Isn't this what many AI's such as Erase are marketed on?

Yes and no. In the case with formestane, it converts to an active, albeit mild, steroid. Most of the magic that really comes with formestane is from this.

 

[luclyluciano]

I answered in my post above: in conjunction with a test booster that increases free test, but not until 4-6 week post PCT or as a cutter.



Yes and no. In the case with formestane, it converts to an active, albeit mild, steroid. Most of the magic that really comes with formestane is from this.

You said yes as well as no. What about the leaning out? That's definitely from the estrogen reduction is it not? I can attest to the leaning out personally. I understand the steroid would produce the strength gains.

Do you have a study proving most of the benefit is from the steroid conversion and not the estrogen reduction?

 

[Rodja]

You said yes as well as no. What about the leaning out? That's definitely from the estrogen reduction is it not? I can attest to the leaning out personally. I understand the steroid would produce the strength gains.

Do you have a study proving most of the benefit is from the steroid conversion and not the estrogen reduction?

Well, there is no direct study on formestane and it's anabolic potential, but there are studies looking into it's IGF-1, IGF-2, and hypoglycemic effects. That in and of itself will cause the leaning effect. Combine that with the anabolic environment from 4-OHT and you have both strength gains and fat loss. This is why I said it is a great cutter, especially when combined with Testofen or nettle extract.

Also, most of the studies I have seen on it, and there are 100's, use IM injection, not transdermal. That can change the efficacy of the product (e.g. Androgel).

 

[Outstanding]

There was a whole write-up on 4-OHT in this month's MD Magazine, mentioned Formestane as well.

 

[mw1]

There was a whole write-up on 4-OHT in this month's MD Magazine, mentioned Formestane as well.

Haven't seen that but i'll check it out

 

[luclyluciano]

So what does the write up say? Are the benefits mainly from the conversion to the steroid or from it acting as an AI?

 

[diablosho]

According to my bloodwork:

09/23/2010:
LH: 4.8 <1.7-8.6>
Serum Testosterone: 669 <280-800>
Estradiol: 49.9 High <7.6-42.6>
FSH: 4.5 <1.5-12.4>

Started using Formestane at this point (@4 pumps daily 2x daily), and then tested again one week later.

09/30/2010:
LH: 3.5 <1.7-8.6> <== Dropped 1.3 points in one week (shows suppression)
Serum Testosterone: 746 <280-800> <==Increased 77 points in one week
Estradiol: 28.9 <7.6-42.6> <==Decreased 21 points in one week
FSH: 4.8 <1.5-12.4> <==Increased .3 points in one week

This is why I ALWAYS say not to use Formestane in PCT unless absolutely necessary, as my bloodwork tells me not to (obviously depending on dosage, etc.). Also, I believe it has some effects on SHBG. But to put out a blanket statement that it's a-okay is just wrong. My LH took quite a hit in one week, and if I were in PCT (this was before I ever ran a cycle), it makes sense that it would inhibit PCT. Just my .02!

 

[jtcastro1]

Damn thanks for the info

 

[luclyluciano]

I am obviously not an expert at reading BW but what about the increase in serum testosterone that increased and the estrogen that decreased?

 

[diablosho]

I am obviously not an expert at reading BW but what about the increase in serum testosterone that increased and the estrogen that decreased?

Both are related I believe. Formestane works by binding to aromatase enzyme, so testosterone cannot. As those free aromatase enzymes decrease, less testosterone will convert to estradiol, which will effectively lower estradiol (and increase testosterone), which should increase LH, thus increasing test even more. It is important to note I could NOT care less about the testosterone effect. I was (and still am) ONLY interested in the estrogen control. However, if you notice the effect on my LH, it dropped 15% in ONE week (if my math is correct, which it may not be because I am REALLY tired from not sleeping much last night). This makes me wonder about the calculations describing the potency of 4-OHT and the dosages involved in the conversion of Formestane to it's steroidal counterpart. In PCT, you are trying to get your LH to go UP, not down, while de-activating estrogen in the breasts and hypothalamus without decreasing the actual levels of estradiol (such that you may achieve homeostasis quicker). As such, I cannot see Formestane from HELPING in PCT unless it is a necessity, but if it's merely for bloating and things like that, I wouldn't use it. Again, I'm not an expert, but these lab tests are my own, so I'm giving you the same advice I use!!!

P.S.
I know it's coming. I know Formastanzol has phyto-serms, etc. My point here is regardless of what is added to Formestane, the formestane will still decrease LH due to the steroidal action. As such, regardless of the products blended into it, your recovery in PCT will be longer (how much longer is debatable), not to mention its' affects on SHBG, which may contribute to the anecdotal evidence of rebound-gyno. AGAIN, just my .02! I know it's highly controversial, so let's keep any debate that arises from this civil!!! LOL!

 

[chocolatemilk]

According to my bloodwork:

09/23/2010:
LH: 4.8 <1.7-8.6>
Serum Testosterone: 669 <280-800>
Estradiol: 49.9 High <7.6-42.6>
FSH: 4.5 <1.5-12.4>

Started using Formestane at this point (@4 pumps daily 2x daily), and then tested again one week later.

09/30/2010:
LH: 3.5 <1.7-8.6> <== Dropped 1.3 points in one week (shows suppression)
Serum Testosterone: 746 <280-800> <==Increased 77 points in one week
Estradiol: 28.9 <7.6-42.6> <==Decreased 21 points in one week
FSH: 4.8 <1.5-12.4> <==Increased .3 points in one week

This is why I ALWAYS say not to use Formestane in PCT unless absolutely necessary, as my bloodwork tells me not to (obviously depending on dosage, etc.). Also, I believe it has some effects on SHBG. But to put out a blanket statement that it's a-okay is just wrong. My LH took quite a hit in one week, and if I were in PCT (this was before I ever ran a cycle), it makes sense that it would inhibit PCT. Just my .02!

I wouldn't jump to those conclusions Diablosho. Daily LH levels on a graph have major varying degrees of amplitudes and frequencys within the normal range throughout the day... LH comes in pulses. Not to mention it has 20 minute half life lol. Two tests are not very indicative of pituitary output when using LH as the standard.

Also, 200mg of Formestane which you are taking is the standalone dose for a Formestane cycle in itself. Half of your dose (100mg) is what I would take as a max dose during PCT.

 

[diablosho]

I wouldn't jump to those conclusions Diablosho. Daily LH levels on a graph have major varying degrees of amplitudes and frequencys within the normal range throughout the day... LH comes in pulses. Not to mention it has 20 minute half life lol. Two tests are not very indicative of pituitary output when using LH as the standard.

Also, 200mg of Formestane which you are taking is the standalone dose for a Formestane cycle in itself. Half of your dose (100mg) is what I would take as a max dose during PCT.

True, true. That's why I stated I used it strictly to bring down my estradiol, which was wreaking HAVOC on my life! I had just finished Physical Therapy for my 2nd hip surgery, and for some reason, my estrogen/prolactin were really out of wack. And I definitely do realize everything fluctuates, but it does kind of make sense. And 100mg may make a difference. But, I still wouldn't run Formestane, because I don't believe this is a step-graph kind of situation. This would be an exponential equation, and given that, there would still be steroidal effects at 100mg.

On another note, I'm surprised to see anybody else awake right now! I've had insomnia for a few days now, and it's really pissing me off! Anywho, take it easy guys!

 

[luclyluciano]

Also, in looking up LH lab tests, I read that LH results differ from lab to lab. Are you sure those tests were done at the same lab?

What I don't understand is, when Formestane lowers Estrogen below equilibrium, does this not signal the pituitary to produce more testosterone to replace that Estrogen, which is how an AI is supposed to work?

P.S. Having said that, I understand your point of why you personally would not take Formestane in PCT.

 

[Outstanding]

So what does the write up say? Are the benefits mainly from the conversion to the steroid or from it acting as an AI?

It mainly focused on 4-OHT and how it never really received its due credit when it was a legally available 'supplement,' before becoming a scheduled steroid. I remember getting a case of 4-OHT before the ban, it was glorious, along with other goodies I dare not mention

The article was a couple pages long and recounted the many benefits of 4-OHT, while making a one-sentence remark paralleling Formestane to 4-OHT's positive effects on IGF levels in the body.

Formestane seems to be a very potent and powerful compound, but where does it best fit in? According to the blood work below, over a 10 point jump is T levels PER DAY with only a few pumps would have me believe it wears many hats, but then looking further as diablosho mentioned, there are telling signs of suppression.

According to my bloodwork:

09/23/2010:
LH: 4.8 <1.7-8.6>
Serum Testosterone: 669 <280-800>
Estradiol: 49.9 High <7.6-42.6>
FSH: 4.5 <1.5-12.4>

Started using Formestane at this point (@4 pumps daily 2x daily), and then tested again one week later.

09/30/2010:
LH: 3.5 <1.7-8.6> <== Dropped 1.3 points in one week (shows suppression)
Serum Testosterone: 746 <280-800> <==Increased 77 points in one week
Estradiol: 28.9 <7.6-42.6> <==Decreased 21 points in one week
FSH: 4.8 <1.5-12.4> <==Increased .3 points in one week

This is why I ALWAYS say not to use Formestane in PCT unless absolutely necessary, as my bloodwork tells me not to (obviously depending on dosage, etc.). Also, I believe it has some effects on SHBG. But to put out a blanket statement that it's a-okay is just wrong. My LH took quite a hit in one week, and if I were in PCT (this was before I ever ran a cycle), it makes sense that it would inhibit PCT. Just my .02!

Thanks for sharing this with us! It looks like, as one opinion, perhaps Formestane might be better served as an on-cycle adjunct to manage estrogen and prolactin formation... but if it wasn't for the slight LH suppression it would be the perfect PCT additive.

I do have to ask, why only the blood tests after one week on the product? Perhaps LH levels normalized and it was only a temporary glitch in response to the potent stimulation of new circulating Testosterone... I believe we'd need a wider window of perspective to gaze into in order to gauge its overall efficacy.

NOTE: Looks like Chocolate Milk beat me to it the LH concerns above Still, perhaps we should discuss this, as I believe Formestane to be a versatile product and the nominal suppression you demonstrated could easily be attributed to a myriad of factors.

 

[diablosho]

Very valid question about the timing. I was still in the Air Force at the time, but getting out 10/08/2010. And, I had just finished my physical therapy, so I figured that day would be great (because I just knew I had high estrogen, many men probably know what I mean). So, I was looking around before the test, and it seemed Formestane was the best choice, as I didn't want to mess with Research Chems while I was in the military. So, anywho, I figured if it works, I want proof it works. But, I was only able to do the two tests due to military separation procedures and the hellish schedule required to outprocess in a week ! So, anywho, it all comes down to time, as I REALLY wanted to run one test per week on the Formestane, but I just wasn't able to.

And I definitely agree, without the LH suppression (which I speculate is more due to the formation of the steroid 4-OHT I believe (???)), it would be a great PCT (also assuming the SHBG affects are overrated)! And again, while it is true that the suppression could definitely be attributed to a myriad of factors, I haven't accounted for them. The tests were both done at the same time of day, and both fasted. I tried to control them the best I could, but one man can only do so much!!! Either way, I hope I was able to help, rather than spread any misleading information due to uncontrolled variables! And thanks for the responses to my bloodwork guys, THIS is the kind of discussion I love!!! Let's get to the bottom of this! What other factors could have factored in to affect these value? By discovering these variables, I may be able to say they were controls, which will make these lab-values more definitive!
--Brian

It mainly focused on 4-OHT and how it never really received its due credit when it was a legally available 'supplement,' before becoming a scheduled steroid. I remember getting a case of 4-OHT before the ban, it was glorious, along with other goodies I dare not mention

The article was a couple pages long and recounted the many benefits of 4-OHT, while making a one-sentence remark paralleling Formestane to 4-OHT's positive effects on IGF levels in the body.

Formestane seems to be a very potent and powerful compound, but where does it best fit in? According to the blood work below, over a 10 point jump is T levels PER DAY with only a few pumps would have me believe it wears many hats, but then looking further as diablosho mentioned, there are telling signs of suppression.



Thanks for sharing this with us! It looks like, as one opinion, perhaps Formestane might be better served as an on-cycle adjunct to manage estrogen and prolactin formation... but if it wasn't for the slight LH suppression it would be the perfect PCT additive.

I do have to ask, why only the blood tests after one week on the product? Perhaps LH levels normalized and it was only a temporary glitch in response to the potent stimulation of new circulating Testosterone... I believe we'd need a wider window of perspective to gaze into in order to gauge its overall efficacy.

NOTE: Looks like Chocolate Milk beat me to it the LH concerns above Still, perhaps we should discuss this, as I believe Formestane to be a versatile product and the nominal suppression you demonstrated could easily be attributed to a myriad of factors.