M1T and the POINT of DIMENISHING RETURNS

[rebelhead]

OK folks. Now that M1T has been around awhile and everyone that wants to try it has had a chance to, lets get down to the nitty gritty. At what mg dosage does someone hit the point of diminishing returns? At what point are you just wasting your money and not gonna get any better results? Would a given person get the same results from 20mg ED as say 50mg ED? I'm not asking about side effects here, just results. I personally dont get very many sides, even at 40mg ED. I'm sure there are plenty of other people the same way.
When people discuss ph's, they leave this topic alone too often IMO. This is good info. to know about all steroids, not just M1T. How about some feedback from some experienced lifters that are knowledgeable about this kind of thing.

 

[Longdog]

I've done numerous cycles and I honestly get the same gains with 10mg M1t as 20mg M1t & I'm 6', 218lbs at around 10%bf. The sides were worse at 20 & the cramps got unbearable, I've never tried any higher. I would like to try 15mg, but I bought a bunch of 10mg caps. Still, I think my threshhold is 10mg. I have only run M1t 3 times, so maybe results at 10mg will tail off eventually. I know it's different for everybody. If you can get better gains with 30-40mg, why not? I wish I could.

 

[sly]

I did not see any gains untill I upped it to 30mg. Only bad side was bad lower back pains around week 4.

 

[Strateg0s]

You may see gains at 5mg a day, depending on how it works on you, and how close you are to your max. It's your liver. If you have patience though, you could start slow. That's really the only way you'll actually answer your question. 15mg might give diminishing returns for you, if you get way more sides than 10mg and little or no more gains. Have fun.

 

[cookmic5]

IMO, most don't need to go over 10mg to get the most out of M1T. There are a lot of guys that just like to use as much as they can, and a lot that are freakin monsters and need up to 30mg, but I tend to observe that the large majority (those under 200lbs) do fine and get the same results w/10 as they would with 20mg.

my 2 cents

cm5

 

[skumster225]

IMO, most don't need to go over 10mg to get the most out of M1T. There are a lot of guys that just like to use as much as they can, and a lot that are freakin monsters and need up to 30mg, but I tend to observe that the large majority (those under 200lbs) do fine and get the same results w/10 as they would with 20mg.

my 2 cents

cm5

Bump, I took 10mg for 5 weeks and lost 1lb post cycle and kept all of my strength gains..

 

[Darkhrse99]

Bump, I took 10mg for 5 weeks and lost 1lb post cycle and kept all of my strength gains..

What did you use for a post cycle?

 

[skumster225]

What did you use for a post cycle?

4 weeks of Nolva

 

[SCORPIO]

I used 10mg for 4wks and gained 6lbs. Not much strength increase or pumps people were talking about. I did up my dose to 15mg per day mid cycle, but sides were unbearable. So I personally think m1t was way over hyped. It made me feel like **** and I didn't get any of the gains people claimed....15-20lbs...yeah right. Yes, my diet and training were it check....I even upped my cals, which was prolly the only reason I gained weight. Different androgens effect people differently and that is what we have to remember.

 

[shaddow]

Bump, I took 10mg for 5 weeks and lost 1lb post cycle and kept all of my strength gains..

Was this an m1t only cycle? That sounds pretty good. I've lost 8lbs post cycle from 1test/4ad so far. :frustrate (3rd week of pct) I was thinking about starting m1t/4ad for 3-4 weeks, with m5 the last 2 on the first of August.

 

[skumster225]

Was this an m1t only cycle? That sounds pretty good. I've lost 8lbs post cycle from 1test/4ad so far. :frustrate (3rd week of pct) I was thinking about starting m1t/4ad for 3-4 weeks, with m5 the last 2 on the first of August.

Yes it was an M1T only cycle...The gains did not come all at once and were pretty evenly spread out thus making them easier to maintain I guess..

 

[Beelzebub]

IMO, most don't need to go over 10mg to get the most out of M1T. There are a lot of guys that just like to use as much as they can, and a lot that are freakin monsters and need up to 30mg, but I tend to observe that the large majority (those under 200lbs) do fine and get the same results w/10 as they would with 20mg.

my 2 cents

cm5

I can't see why anyone would exceed 10mgs. I'm 270lbs and 10mgs of M1T kicks my ass like no other. On the most recent cycle, I combined 10mg M1T with 330mgs of trans 4AD and gained 23lbs in 14 days. I felt like total ****, couldn't walk without back cramping, looked bloated. Strength was going up nicely but 23lbs worth? Hell, I didn't even change my diet. 2 days ago, I dropped the M1T and kept up with the 4AD trans to finish up the cycle. I've tried 20mgs one time but after the 5 day mark, I had the same symptoms as above with less to show for it. M1T is definately a good product but the sides have become more than I can bear.

 

[supersoldier]

Found This On a Website

Hepatic Failure

Increased levels:
Alkaline Phosphatase; SGPT; SGOT; CO2;
Bilirubin, Total; Creatinine; Globulin; LDH

Decreased levels:
Albumin; Cholesterol; Glucose; Phosphorus

You can replace the words "Hepatic Failure" with "Methyl-1-Test" and it would be pretty accurate still. SGPT and SGOT are the same as AST and ALT, not sure which is which. M1T is the only methyl I've tested that lowers the **** out of your cholesterol, HDL, and Glucose. Just some food for thought.

 

[acecombact1]

after reading this i will do one more m1t cycle and it will be my last one, then i will cross to the dark side.
4 weeks at 10mg with 4-ad.

 

[cr4ytonic]

I don't think there is a point in going over 10mg.

 

[mrbig]

I just ended a cycle of M1T I think it is a good product gain ten pounds and felt great
no sides at all.

 

[fatty]

this is a pretty good thread over at bb.com. concerning M-1T.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?threadid=301665

 

[rebelhead]

Was this an m1t only cycle? That sounds pretty good. I've lost 8lbs post cycle from 1test/4ad so far. :frustrate (3rd week of pct) I was thinking about starting m1t/4ad for 3-4 weeks, with m5 the last 2 on the first of August.

Ya I know what you mean. I lost almost all of my 1-test/4-AD cycle gains during PCT. The 1-test/4ad cycle seems to be mostly water gains. Not that bloated water look. The gains are mostly intramusclular water weight kinda like creatine gains IMO, not permanent.

 

[rebelhead]

I am sure alot of people are getting good gains at 10mg ED and I know everyone is different so some need more than others. I personally didn't get gains until I reached 30mg ED and I am definately gettin better gains from 40mg ED and I am only 185lbs at roughly 8%? bf. Does anyone have any scientific evidence or theory to point towards the belief that 10mg ED is enough to completly saturate the AR in most people? I think alot of people are doing more than 10 or 20mg ED but aren't gonna post it because they think newbies will go and try it. There has to be a study or assay somewhere pointing towards the correct amount of this substance to saturate the receptor besides having to go on side effects alone as an indicator of anabolic potency.
BTW I have tried 1-test prop as a stand alone and it gave me much more sides than m1t as a stand alone. Seems more androgenic. My prostate swelled up until I could hardly piss and it burned like hell. It gave me depression and terrible lethargy. Also, I think the people saying m1t made them bloated are experiencing that from the 4ad they're stacking with it. It dont bloat me. I started m1t at the end of a 1-test/4ad cycle awhile back and I lost the bloat when I started the m1t alone and I began to loose bodyfat quick. No water gain for me. I got ripped quick and I didn't even change my diet.

 

[Beelzebub]

I've tried M1T solo and with 4AD, both times I got bloated. I'm sure 4AD doesn't help the bloat though. Probably why I gained so much weight this time.

 

[FiGMan]

Quick Question

Hey Beelzebub, just curious on your 4AD application. You were using T4 with 10 grams added correct? If so I was just wondering where did you apply your 1 squirt. With the gains you stated, Im putting that **** where ever you went with it lol

 

[DR.D]

This is for all steroids, not just m1t. After 2 or 3 wk's, nitrogen balance starts to rebound. You can increase dose to delay this, but the effect wears off as soon as protein deficiency is overcome (6 wks tops usually) After this, you get diminishing returns. About 1 wk after you have quit juicing, nitrogen excretion hits a rebound max. You can fight this by lowering protein intake. This makes the wearing off set in much later, but the lower the protein, the less influence of the steroid on nitrogen retention, so this is just a diet trick for long cycles. Also, increasing protein does not potentiate the effect of steroids indefinitly and after about 40% dietary, protein is just wasted. That's why they say short cycles are best.

 

[silverSurfer]

This is for all steroids, not just m1t. After 2 or 3 wk's, nitrogen balance starts to rebound. You can increase dose to delay this, but the effect wears off as soon as protein deficiency is overcome (6 wks tops usually) After this, you get diminishing returns. About 1 wk after you have quit juicing, nitrogen excretion hits a rebound max. You can fight this by lowering protein intake. This makes the wearing off set in much later, but the lower the protein, the less influence of the steroid on nitrogen retention, so this is just a diet trick for long cycles. Also, increasing protein does not potentiate the effect of steroids indefinitly and after about 40% dietary, protein is just wasted. That's why they say short cycles are best.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Beelzebub]

Hey Beelzebub, just curious on your 4AD application. You were using T4 with 10 grams added correct? If so I was just wondering where did you apply your 1 squirt. With the gains you stated, Im putting that **** where ever you went with it lol

My daily routine was wake up a 6am, take a shower and shave chest. Afterwards applying one squirt to the chest. Generally, around 7pm, I'd take a second shower after the gym and apply the second dose directly after drying thoroughly. From what I've heard, the pores are more open after a shower so you would absorb more through the skin at that time.

 

[FiGMan]

Thanks

Thanks Beelzebub. I too have used the same routine waking up around 6 and showering and applying to chest area and later that night the same. The only place I ever applied was the chest and it seemed to work well so I just kept with that.

 

[propho]

10mgs for me did a very good job.. except i lost all the weight gain afterwards =( i blame myself on that though.. but I kept most of the strength..

 

[raylewis]

My daily routine was wake up a 6am, take a shower and shave chest. Afterwards applying one squirt to the chest. Generally, around 7pm, I'd take a second shower after the gym and apply the second dose directly after drying thoroughly. From what I've heard, the pores are more open after a shower so you would absorb more through the skin at that time.

so 1 pump usually is 83.3 of 4AD from another thread (still searching for the original thread on each pump of BDC Gel). I was doing 2 pumps 2X's a day for 333.2 of 4AD.

Anyway for you that are doing 10mg a day, were you splitting 5mg morning and night or were you taking 10mg in the morning/night all at once?

 

[cookmic5]

so 1 pump usually is 83.3 of 4AD

I don't know if this was a question, but... if you have 5 grams in 120ml then yes it would yield 83.3mg per pump.

 

[Myth]

I've done numerous cycles and I honestly get the same gains with 10mg M1t as 20mg M1t & I'm 6', 218lbs at around 10%bf. The sides were worse at 20 & the cramps got unbearable, I've never tried any higher. I would like to try 15mg, but I bought a bunch of 10mg caps. Still, I think my threshhold is 10mg. I have only run M1t 3 times, so maybe results at 10mg will tail off eventually. I know it's different for everybody. If you can get better gains with 30-40mg, why not? I wish I could.

I feel you on this. I am 39 soon to be 40 and have been in the game for 18 years. I have never felt any sides from no sauce in my life. I have takened as many as 10 - 5mg dbols, 2 halotestins, and a gram of sus. a week on a 12 week cycle. No sides whatsoever, I am bald so losing my hair was out of the question. However, 10mg was ok on the M1T, 20mg made my head feel swollen and my bp dia. stayed over 90, not good. So 10mg does the same for me and I am hanging around 220 to 225.

 

[pu12en12g]

This is quite possibly the 2nd best thread ever. I don't know why this question isn't asked more often.

 

[skeptical]

For me, 20 mgs works much better than 10. The sides are a bit worse, but not unbearable. Even at 20 mgs, I have yet to experience really bad cramps with M1T, mostly my sides just amount to some lethargy and an overall shitty attitude. I've also noticed only minimal bloating, even when adding 400 mgs per day of transdermal 4AD.

With my last cycle I used a 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, 2 weeks on, 4 weeks PCT format with 20 mgs per day of M1T and 400 mgs per day of transdermal 4AD. I gained nearly 25 pounds in all, and kept nearly 20. Granted, I experienced a slight increase in bodyfat, but it was very slight. Frankly, I love M1T; if it wasn't so damn hard on your innards I wouldn't use anything else.

 

[BAD_MO_FO]

I've done 20mg and 30mg cycles. 30 worked better but also worse sides.

 

[cdy2179]

i gained 15lbs in four weeks with M1T/ 4AD cycle. I ran it at 10mg. for two weeks and then the gains stopped, so i upped it to 20mg, and they skyrocketed. The only sides i had were severe cramps (i took potasium pills which worked great) and acnes that showed up in the last week and into pct (liquid nolva). Strength went up on everything, the pumps were out of this world, shoulders would ache for half an hour after a workout (could barely pick my arms up) I stayed tight most of the cycle 24/7. now in week 3 of pct and i've lost 5lbs. kept strength and bodyfat remains as i was before the cycle ~10%. My arms also went from 16 to 17". will be doing MANY more cycle of this stack.

 

[cdy2179]

For me, 20 mgs works much better than 10. The sides are a bit worse, but not unbearable. Even at 20 mgs, I have yet to experience really bad cramps with M1T, mostly my sides just amount to some lethargy and an overall shitty attitude. I've also noticed only minimal bloating, even when adding 400 mgs per day of transdermal 4AD.

With my last cycle I used a 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, 2 weeks on, 4 weeks PCT format with 20 mgs per day of M1T and 400 mgs per day of transdermal 4AD. I gained nearly 25 pounds in all, and kept nearly 20. Granted, I experienced a slight increase in bodyfat, but it was very slight. Frankly, I love M1T; if it wasn't so damn hard on your innards I wouldn't use anything else.

i read a post on here the other day and a guy posted his lab results, it showed that after his M1T cycle everything was much more normal than everyone has been led to beleive, he said he worked at a lab, so his tests were free. He ran tests for other popular PH cycles he'd been on and which actually did more harm than the M1T. Of course all PHs should be taken with caution no matter what, but if you can handle the sides of M1T it's results are crazy.

 

[Myth]

i read a post on here the other day and a guy posted his lab results, it showed that after his M1T cycle everything was much more normal than everyone has been led to beleive, he said he worked at a lab, so his tests were free. He ran tests for other popular PH cycles he'd been on and which actually did more harm than the M1T. Of course all PHs should be taken with caution no matter what, but if you can handle the sides of M1T it's results are crazy.

I felt them coming on but my bp was getting higher than it has ever been on AD. Maybe
I got one of those overdosed batches.

 

[creator]

dig it: 10 days into m1testcycle with: no body wgt. gains but agressive pumps and strength increases. So far, 3 days at 5g ed, 3 days at 10 mg ed, and 4 days at 15 mg ed.
I am bloated but not more so than when off gear. in fact, i been bloated for months. this worries me: is it the prostate, is it the kidneys? no painful or frequent pissing, i should say. i eat a lot of animal products (need that protein!) and worry that this, on top of gear, is really hard on the liver and kidneys.
all i know is, ive been making steady gains wout gear by training heavy with lots of rest. this is always most important. veryone wants to juice, but few train very hard with good technique.
i wanna bump up to 20-30 mg ed but dont trust the safety thereof. i got no health insurance so no blood work--notta. just milk thistle, cranberyy extract etc. formastat for pct.
please, comments and advice form the vets!

 

[rebo]

Seems hard to say those 15 lb gains that people got where from the m1t alone when there cals were upped in there diet.I did a 5 week run with m1t,and i used it as a cutter with great results.I kept diet the same,at the end of my cycle i weighed almost the same but lost 2 waist sizes.Which was great(gained good lean muscle).Also went up 10 lb on bench press.I ran 5mg first week and then 10 threw 4 weeks.I didnt get good strength gain till week2,but like i said i didnt up cals either.I was very impressed with this compound.my sides where sleepy alot and slight back pumps.Currently in pct with nolva,and str is still holding good.

 

[cdy2179]

Seems hard to say those 15 lb gains that people got where from the m1t alone when there cals were upped in there diet.I did a 5 week run with m1t,and i used it as a cutter with great results.I kept diet the same,at the end of my cycle i weighed almost the same but lost 2 waist sizes.Which was great(gained good lean muscle).Also went up 10 lb on bench press.I ran 5mg first week and then 10 threw 4 weeks.I didnt get good strength gain till week2,but like i said i didnt up cals either.I was very impressed with this compound.my sides where sleepy alot and slight back pumps.Currently in pct with nolva,and str is still holding good.

I always eat ~4500 cal a day, but i eat very clean. stay at ~10%bf, gained 15lbs in 4 weeks, didn't change my diet at all.

 

[rebo]

nice,how much of the weight did ya keep?

 

[rebo]

ahh i see ya kept 10 lbs ,nice

 

[gururise]

I'm 167 at about 15% BF. I started a 4 week m1t / 4AD cycle, and about half way into my cycle I was so bloated that I just felt bad. There was alot of pressure on my lower back due to the bloating.

I started with 10mg of M1t for the first two weeks. To help with the bloat, I started taking 1 tablet (300mg) of 6-oxo each night before bed. Within a day or two, the bloat was gone.. Though not scientific, this leads me to believe the bloat people are experiencing on M1t is due to extra estrogen in the system.

My first two weeks, I gained about 4-5 lbs. I have since upped the dosage to 20mg for my last two weeks. So far, the sides are very minmal, and include sleepiness. My bodyfat went up just a bit, so I'm hoping most of the mass gain I will get to keep after the cycle is over.

My previous cycles was a 1-T/4AD transdermal cycle. I gained almost 10 lbs, but alot of it was bloat and fat due to increased cals. I am wondering if the people who are saying they gained 25 lbs on one cycle of m1t have just gained water weight and fat. I was very careful this time to keep an eye on my BF percentage. Also, I am not increasing my cal intake as much this time.

 

[cdy2179]

i eat ~4500 cal a day, but i am a hardgainer (ectomorph), i now weigh just under 190lbs at 5'11". but in order to keep from gaining fat i eat a proper balance of protein, carbs, and fat. I run from processed sugar don't touch anything with it (coke, pizza sauce, desserts). That's what most people have problems with. i make my own meal replacements and eat tons of oats, if you eat very clean ,you can eat a ton more calories without getting fat, which of course helps build muscle faster.

 

[iron ogr]

On a 4wk cycle m1-t / 4ad I gained 16lbs. total. First 9lbs. @ 10mg 7 more @ 20mg.

Lost about 6lbs. 3wks. into PCT

 

[DR.D]

i eat ~4500 cal a day, but i am a hardgainer (ectomorph), i now weigh just under 190lbs at 5'11". but in order to keep from gaining fat i eat a proper balance of protein, carbs, and fat. I run from processed sugar don't touch anything with it (coke, pizza sauce, desserts). That's what most people have problems with. i make my own meal replacements and eat tons of oats, if you eat very clean ,you can eat a ton more calories without getting fat, which of course helps build muscle faster.

Very good points, people report inconsistent results because of different diets. Eat clean while on cycle, and you won't have to question the kind of gains you made. Sodium is often an overlooked culprit, and is present in every refined food.