OTC PCT is a waste of time and money.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by SuppJunkie View Post
    Well I Have to agree that the Novedex XT lowers testosterone. I have used that product various times and for different reasons, ie, ran solo, and ran as part of a OTC PCT a long time ago. It was good for like the first week and then by week two my sex drive and libido were way down. So I do not use that anymore and have not in a long time..

    I also agree that OTC PCT, when all said and done is more costly that the Serms.

    But I do NOT agree when you say that they are not effective. I have ran several PH/DS cycles over the years, from the originals, ie, Androstedione, and diol, etc, I even remember the Pinnacle poppers, LOL. I have ran Superdrol, Halodrol, Epistane, Bold, Phera etc, and I have always used OTC PCT. Now it was always like takining two steps forward (while on cycle) and one step back (at end of PCT). My last cycle I gained 21 pounds and when all was said and done, I kept 14, and yes, I am sure some was fat.

    My PCT included N2BM and Mr Supps products,

    1) HcGenerate
    2) Formastanzolol
    3) Unleased/Post Cycle
    4) Ancient Strength Creatine/Creatine Mono

    OTC PCT works for me, I am not saying that it will work for everybody. All I am saying is I have been in the game for over 20 years and I know what works for me and what doesn't.

    I have not posted here to draw heat from anybody, I came here just to respond to this thread IMO. I respect everyones opinion and wish everyone a good day. Take care..SJ
    I thought HCG wasn't good for Revovery?(PCT).
    Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
    -Jim Morrison


  2. Quote Originally Posted by TheMeatus101 View Post
    I thought HCG wasn't good for Revovery?(PCT).
    hcgenerate isn't hcg its some bullsh*t herbal stuff that steals the name, tricking you into believing it does the same thing. Just like nolvadex and novedex.

    I would respect OTC companies much more so if they didn't try to screw newbies over with these word games.
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  3. I dont care what the arguments on here are pushing for OTC,

    but;

    HCG on cycle plus a clomid PCT, tapered with arimidex will always win hands down no questions asked in terms of recovery time and trustworthyness.

    Why would you risk your endocrine system on some OTC bullsh*t.


    Theres a reason doctors prescribe clomid for restarting the HPTA and not tribulus/maca/novedex-xt.


    You dont take an OTC Herbal steroid do you? Cuz there isn't such thing, so why would you expect these OTC test booster herbals to pick up the slack...truth of the matter is your body is doing most of its work on its own, and you are just getting lucky by assisting it with OTC crap.

    If you want promising results and peace of mind knowing you protected every angle as much as possible dont f*ck with OTC crap when you are messing with real steroids. End of story.

  4. Another one of these threads?

    If you have a SERM, consider yourself taken care of in the homeostasis recovery department.

    However, do not expect your libido to fair well, do not expect glycogen retention and muscle fullness to fair well, do not expect energy and intensity in the gym, and do not expect estrogen to go down.

    I agree, supplements aimed at homeostasis recovery will never work as efficiently as a SERM. But if you think recovery is the only aspect of sustaining gains that is retarded and so one-dimensional that its retarded in itself.

    I have seen guys on here come off SD into testosterone and still lose weight and strength, and you think a simple old SERM will take care of gains? Reaching homeostasis is way over rated in terms of keeping gains. Wayyyy over rated.

    There are other departments besides homeostatsis recovery which mean a lot for keeping gains. Take some Need2slin to sustain high glycogen and muscle fullness, take some creatine if you want the energy through ATP, strength, and muscle fullness. Take some Forma-stanzol near the ending of your PCT to drop risen estrogen levels due to SERM. If you want to be banging your wife or girlfriend during PCT get some HCGenerate.

    Notice I am not mentioning products aimed at recovery because a SERM is all you need for that. But if you wanna hit PCT hard and optimize every aspect of it for gain retention, you should really add some good supplements.

    A SERM on its own only raises LH levels. How much do you really expect that to help in sustaining new fragile muscle? Wouldn't you think shuttling nutrients through insulin mimickers and shuttling glycogen in the muscle is not useful for PCT? There is way more to the story than a SERM.

    SERM first. Everything else around it. And if you choose the right sh*t it wont be a waste of money. Pick good supplements for:

    Glycogen
    ATP
    Muscle fullness
    Strength
    Libido
    Insulin mimickers
    Estrogen control

    Don't buy sh*t aimed at "recovery." It's money down the drain if you already have a SERM.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post
    You imply that you are an advocate of the use of this product as an effective PCT by your adamant defense of the product. The use of novadex xt as a proper pct is not study proven by any means. You may like the product, but for the uneducated viewers of this thread, you are doing them a disservice by giving them reason to not go through the trouble of figuring out a proper PCT and just use some OTC crap. This could effect these individuals negatively and it is irresponsible of you to do so.

    This IS an assumption, as is that the levels will magically return to normal after the discontinuation of use. Neither of which is proven as the study concludes with the test levels immediately following use. I bet if a poll were taken, most would agree with me that the subjects levels did not simply return to original levels. We will never know the real answer though, unless we Actually see blood results from say, a month after the study?
    read what i wrote and address the points I made regarding your incorrect assertions. I have only been correcting your massively incorrect statements about this product. I have provided information, and bloods to show its legitimacy, yet repeatedly you've provided NO evidence to support your false claims that:

    -nov xt is a prohormone
    -nov xt is not an AI
    -nov xt is suppressive/lowers test
    -that once it boosts test, the levels will drop below that of pre-nov xt
    -taken an arbitrary time period of a 1 month for a following test to reassess bloods

    Now once again, here's my comments/corrections

    ''6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol = non-androgenic anti-aromatase''
    ''3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene'' = ATD... which is an AI
    ''3', 5, 7-Trihydroxy-4'-Methoxyflavone = Hesperetin (which is a flavanoid)

    NO prohormone is in the ingredients.

    http://www.*************/forum/suppl...b-results.html
    http://www.sizematters.com.au/supple...ood-tests.html

    and of course there are the original clinical studies done with nov xt:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17460335

    There are more bloods done on it, but you can find those.

    studies to show that it boosts test, not suppress it. you have failed to show any study that nov xt lowers test

    and you made the arbitrary assumption that because test has risen, it must then fall below starting levels. Please show me clinical and/or anecdotal evidence for this, as I have never heard anything along these lines for nov xt.

    I dont work for gaspari, but it annoys me when grossly incorrect statements are made about legitimate products with literally no evidence to back them up.

    So do you:
    1: still think Nov Xt is a prohormone? and not an AI?
    2: still believe it lowers test?
    3: think the studies are fraudulent?
    4: still think that there is a drop in baseline test upon cessation of nov xt?

    And once again, I would not run Nov XT as a PCT. I never said I would!
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by no reason View Post
    heres why.....

    ATD is a type of AI that is known as a Suicide Inhibitor. Most that I know of don't like using ATD's due to the fact that it kills the aromitase enzyme. Another and more popular AI you should read up on is a Competitive Inhibitor.
    This is interesting. I know that ATD kills libido and I stay away from it. But on the other hand - products like Erase and Formestane are also suicide inhibitors (right?). I love those products - they make me feel warm and fuzzy and barbaric on the inside - and horny as hell. So ... if killing the aromatase enzyme is a bad thing - why does Erase and Formestane hurt me so good?

    Just trying to learn.

  7. People on here make a good point .

    My friend did a m drol cycle for 6 weeks took nothing no cycle assist whatsoever and no pct he lost sll his gains but was fine, so i am confused when people say this snd that bottum line is .... Serms work best .. Fact! Otc can work?? Hopfuly for the newbi.

    But can a serm cause repound gyno?? If used when not needed ??

    When is a serm 100% needed? Take Competitive Edge Labs

  8. Let me say diffrently ...

    Im a newbi and if anyone could tell me anything about p mag? Will i need a serm? If so what one? Thanks

  9. Quote Originally Posted by neverstop View Post
    100% agreed. Plus they are not tested to the same standards are SERMs which have been FDA approved and used in medical settings for decades.
    Because, I suppose the OTC research serms are much more efficient and much safer. The only sure way is to get one prescribed or illegally obtain prescriptions, though I can't advocate the illegal route.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Pika View Post
    People on here make a good point .


    But can a serm cause repound gyno?? If used when not needed ??
    It hasn't in me. Sometimes I'll take 6 weeks of Torem after an Epi cycle of only 2 weeks. I like the torem - and I think, stand alone ... it's kind of "therapy" on it's own. Can't say that for Clomid or Nolva - I haven't taken those. Clomid has emotional sides for many. Nolva almost universally kills libido.

    Torem - I can't find a single damn side effect to it. I feel great - and it boosts my libido.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post
    This IS an assumption, as is that the levels will magically return to normal after the discontinuation of use. Neither of which is proven as the study concludes with the test levels immediately following use. I bet if a poll were taken, most would agree with me that the subjects levels did not simply return to original levels. We will never know the real answer though, unless we Actually see blood results from say, a month after the study?
    Its pretty well documented actually. Its not like steroids are new. They actually have medical uses and among the studies of usage of the steroids are also studies on what happens after discontinuation. For people with wasting diseases being on dbol for over a year, 80% reach 80% or higher of their original testosterone levels within 6 months. Is that optimal for a bodybuilder (for it to take that long) no. But a natural PCT product and testosterone boosters can help speed that and raise that and is still valid for some people, particularly considering a 4 week cycle does not have the same suppressing effect as a year does.

  12. Bro you seem like you know yo ****.... Will a p mag cycle be a gden? 50/50/75/75/75 ? Pct serm nolvadex 20/20/10/10 ? Woth pct assist?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Pika View Post
    Bro you seem like you know yo ****.... Will a p mag cycle be a gden? 50/50/75/75/75 ? Pct serm nolvadex 20/20/10/10 ? Woth pct assist?
    good idea. if in doubt, probably best to create your own thread and you'll get a much more focussed response

  14. Yh sorry bud didnt mean to steal anyones thred ... I have made a thred omly a few have commented... Its very confusing because you have the people at the store saying otc pct is best then people on here saying a serm is best then people again on forms saying a serm is over kill and could put a rebound gyno after thanks tho

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Pika View Post
    Yh sorry bud didnt mean to steal anyones thred ... I have made a thred omly a few have commented... Its very confusing because you have the people at the store saying otc pct is best then people on here saying a serm is best then people again on forms saying a serm is over kill and could put a rebound gyno after thanks tho
    a SERM acts as a weak estrogen and binds to the sites in your breast tissue where estrogen would bind. It doesn't lower or change the circulating amount of estrogen. So as estrogen builds up in your bloodstream as your testosterone levels rise, it has nowhere to go. You suddenly stop using the SERM, breast tissue estrogen receptors are available again, and now the estrogen has a place to go.

  16. Thanks bro , i did read that up so i guess thats a rebound huh? So whats the best thing to do? Would you say ? Thanks i know you must have 100 newbi aday asking same thing lol

  17. There can be. But its all about doses of everything, time of everything, etc. really the only way to get a PCT right is to take bloodwork last day of cycle, and then tailor the PCT to where you are, restest at 2 weeks and make more changes then retest 4 weeks after end of PCT. but thats not really feasible.

  18. Yh... So would you say i should just have nolvadex on hand and do a otc pct or? Also h drol or p mag what would you say? Thanks

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Pika View Post
    Yh... So would you say i should just have nolvadex on hand and do a otc pct or? Also h drol or p mag what would you say? Thanks
    on hand for what? without blood tests how will you know "I need to use this now", and like I said its all about doses, times, and you starting off knowing what your baseline blood levels are so in case there is a problem later you have something to compare to. I don't ever recommend anything specific for PCT cause its all 100% individual

  20. Good read here until the hijack

  21. Quote Originally Posted by bakerderek0 View Post
    Good read here until the hijack
    agreed

  22. ? Im confused on what you mean? On hand? Yes a serm on hand just if gyno comes up? I mean what pct did you do? Or what pct will ya say is best to go with ?

  23. In the past i've used both OTC and non-OTC and didn't notice a huge difference. I started with low testosterone levels before every cycling anything though so your results may vary

  24. Pika, just create your own thread. seriously, the bulk of the 3rd page of a general discussion of OTC has been consumed by your own personal questions about your cycle.

  25. Ok bro il do that now sorry,

  26. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Another one of these threads?

    If you have a SERM, consider yourself taken care of in the homeostasis recovery department.

    However, do not expect your libido to fair well, do not expect glycogen retention and muscle fullness to fair well, do not expect energy and intensity in the gym, and do not expect estrogen to go down.

    I agree, supplements aimed at homeostasis recovery will never work as efficiently as a SERM. But if you think recovery is the only aspect of sustaining gains that is retarded and so one-dimensional that its retarded in itself.

    I have seen guys on here come off SD into testosterone and still lose weight and strength, and you think a simple old SERM will take care of gains? Reaching homeostasis is way over rated in terms of keeping gains. Wayyyy over rated.

    There are other departments besides homeostatsis recovery which mean a lot for keeping gains. Take some Need2slin to sustain high glycogen and muscle fullness, take some creatine if you want the energy through ATP, strength, and muscle fullness. Take some Forma-stanzol near the ending of your PCT to drop risen estrogen levels due to SERM. If you want to be banging your wife or girlfriend during PCT get some HCGenerate.

    Notice I am not mentioning products aimed at recovery because a SERM is all you need for that. But if you wanna hit PCT hard and optimize every aspect of it for gain retention, you should really add some good supplements.

    A SERM on its own only raises LH levels. How much do you really expect that to help in sustaining new fragile muscle? Wouldn't you think shuttling nutrients through insulin mimickers and shuttling glycogen in the muscle is not useful for PCT? There is way more to the story than a SERM.

    SERM first. Everything else around it. And if you choose the right sh*t it wont be a waste of money. Pick good supplements for:

    Glycogen
    ATP
    Muscle fullness
    Strength
    Libido
    Insulin mimickers
    Estrogen control

    Don't buy sh*t aimed at "recovery." It's money down the drain if you already have a SERM.
    the point i was making is that an OTC AI is never going to do a better job at HPTA restoration as a SERM

    all the other stuff you mention will obviously be helpful, but I wouldn't consider that so much PCT, thats more just supplements. The obvious goal is to restore LH as quickly as possible and recover the hormone levels. All the other crap is just icing on the cake;

    for sex hormone recovery purposes; which 99% of us are worried about, its down to

    OTC AI like novedex bullcrap + some tribulus bullsh*t, or a SERM and a real AI.
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