needle free injections!!!!

[acecombact1]

i found a device ( needle-less pressure infiltration apparatus)
that injects Anesthetic solutions, parenteral drugs, vaccines, steroids in aqueous suspension. its called demojet. most of these devices require a source of compressed gas, but this one dosent. so im thinking its good idea for someone who is afraid of needles like me. its little bit expeinsive i can find it for around 200$, but after buying it you donr need to buy needles anymore.

do you guys this would work with AAS!!!

here is its catalog: http://www.robbinsinstruments.com/dermo-jet/downloads/dj_instructions.pdf

 

[ManBeast]

Most AAS aren't in an aqueous (water-based) solution so I don't think so.

ManBeast

 

[zeromagnus]

Seems like a hassle. How can you be sure that the jet of liquid will go into the muscle and not into a vein. That's why it's only for aqueous solutions, I believe. Just pin. Needles are your friend. I don't even feel a 25g going into my leg.

 

[Matthew D]

this was discussed I think a while back but the main problem is the need for an aqueous solution as was said before, that and the possible nicking or hitting a vein

 

[DR.D]

Needles are your friend. I don't even feel a 25g going into my leg.

Your starting to scare me ZM !! I just got some crazy visuals on that statement, leg shots never 'look right' to me, I can't explain.

I've heard of this technology, there is also a device that uses a little sonicator, but they haven't perfected it and it's basically just a forced trans system. Inj. is 100% delivery every time though.

 

[acecombact1]

isnt all gear can be made into aqueous solution!!!

i know most of AAS is oil based, but say im hombrewing from powder i can make anything into aqueous solution!

 

[morfiend]

probably.

is test suspension aq or just dispersed?

are these devices what the army/marines use for their vacinations?

 

[acecombact1]

probably.

is test suspension aq or just dispersed?

are these devices what the army/marines use for their vacinations?

its very similar to the ones used by the army. the only difference is that the army uses compressed air with their injection device. the good thing about the device is that you could inject many people with same device without fear of transporting diseases.

 

[fiddler]

the needleless injector hurts a lot more than needles. At least that's what people who have used them have told me. ironically, they invariably switch back to needles...

fiddler

 

[nsruffryder34]

the problem is that if the AAS were in a (water) base we would need multiple daily injections and there would be no use for the various esters.... pain in the ass if you ask me...

 

[N4cer]

the problem is that if the AAS were in a (water) base we would need multiple daily injections and there would be no use for the various esters.... pain in the ass if you ask me...

Explain, please.
Because it seems to me that if the hormone is injected into the muscle, the ester is what binds to body fat, correct? And from there it is released as the esterase enzyme breaks it down, regardless of water/oil base.

 

[nsruffryder34]

The oil that the AAS is suspended in, acts kind of like a time release... the oil forms kind of a ball in the muscle and a little bit breaks away ata time, the onger the ester the slower it breaks away, the main reason however is that a AAS molecule with a fat soluble ester will not suspend in a water base, the ester needs an oil base to be soluable...

 

[N4cer]

The oil that the AAS is suspended in, acts kind of like a time release... the oil forms kind of a ball in the muscle and a little bit breaks away ata time, the onger the ester the slower it breaks away, the main reason however is that a AAS molecule with a fat soluble ester will not suspend in a water base, the ester needs an oil base to be soluable...

I don't think so, man. That oil is dispersed from the muscle within 4 hours MAX! The ester being fat soluble means that it resides in your adipose tissue once injected. It does not stay in the oil with the oil forming an oil reserve in your muscle. How else can a decanoate ester be so long, but still be even sited (if you wanted) daily? That would blow the muscle if the oil wasn't dispersed. But it disperses.

I'm not saying it's good to have an esterified suspension, but I'm saying that the resoning behind it was all wrong. Esters bind IN THE BODY, and the oil disperses.

Then of course I've been wrong before.

 

[nsruffryder34]

No, you are right I phrased what I was saying wrong, basically if it was a water base, the AAS with a fat soluable ester wouldnt be able to stay in solution, it also would be hard for the ester to bind being in a aqueous vehicle once inside the muscle....

 

[jjjd]

"AAS molecule with a fat soluble ester will not suspend in a water base"

INCORRECT.

you said "suspend". it will most definitely SUSPEND. the issue is whether it will go into SOLUTION.

then in your next post, you use the world "solution" not suspension. probably just carelessness, but the terms are not interchangeable.

the main problem with aqueous compounds is that they are much more prone to bacterial growth than oil ones

they are more problematic in this regards. more problematic to homebrew water based compounds

 

[N4cer]

But is that an issue even with the industry standard 0.9% BA such as bacteriostatic water?

 

[jjjd]

i am not sure what your question is?

BW is fine in itself. when making PH compounds with water (ie BW), that is another issue.

water is a much more bacteria friendly medium for the growth of organisms than oil. from a quality lab (like using commercial winstrol etc.) that's not a problem

when homebrewing aqueous suspensions, it is

 

[nsruffryder34]

yes it was a carelss post, it will "suspend" in water but will not go into solution, although some shorter acting esters may even go into solution with a water base, that still creates a need for daily dosing....
Even with a high amount of BA, longer fat soluable esters will not go into solution, AAS are lipophilic substances by themselves, when adding an ester, it just increases the need for a fatty base..

 

[DR.D]

If your going to create your own suspensions, you better recrystalize the base a few times first or you will very likely have issues. With solutions, each molecule is exposed to the BA constantly and the whole thing gets filtered at the end so it's not as problematic. And yes, you can make them water sol by forming a salt instead of an ester at the 17 position. The succinate sodium salt form of steroids is very soluble, but it would work so fast. What's the point? Just get a crack pipe and free base some test prop or whatever steroid for 'quick' action (this work by the way :thumbsup: )

 

[jjjd]

yes.

it comes down to this. for all practical purposes - homebrewers should stay away from trying to make aqueous injectables. the risks outweigh the benefits.

stick with oil based (and/or peg enhanced) injectables, whether they be suspensions or solutions

and nsuffryder, i agree with you about lipophilicity (sp?) as well

i'm interested about the crack pipe solution. what is the vaporization point of t-prop? this is certainly an interesting administration method. quicker than buccals even

 

[nsruffryder34]

to use the so called "crack pipe solution" wouldnt the steroid need to be something like test HCL, for it to work.... just guessing, im not to familar with crack pipes

 

[DR.D]

The MP of test prop is like 120deg. Back in HS I got ahold of some reagent grade crystals. It sublimes quite easily in a pipe, instant effects! Very effective at getting you through those hard core 2-a-days football parctices. You can smoke bases too, 4ad is a good one. When it first came out, years ago, I did it pre-w/o alot. Very stimulating, you get shakey w/ too much. I always thought it would be great for any short 'event' a fight, contest, race, game, etc...

 

[nsruffryder34]

Hmmm..... maybe some 5aa will prove rather interesting this way.....

 

[acecombact1]

crystalization can be hard to do, because each AAS ned a specific solvent.
you can dissolve the AAS in acetone, then let the acetone dry.

 

[acecombact1]

i found a intresting drug delivery method used in sport medicine to deliver drugs and medication to a specific muscle. its iontophoresis patch (the passage of a small electric current through the skin to deliver the drug) its transdermal patch with batter that supposed to have good rate of absorption.

i dont know if it will work with AAS, but still its intresting:

http://www.wisdomking.com/product156739c150036.html

 

[einstein1905]

I used to work for the company that first introduced these devices for DNA vaccines. They're a bit more refined now. AAS in suspension (i.e. long estered gear that won't go into aqueous solution) won't really work with needle-free injections like this. the suspension forms "clumps" of a size not favorable for passage through the epidermis.
There would be more pain than with needles anyway, the huge bruises after needle-free injections were pretty bad.

 

[acecombact1]

I used to work for the company that first introduced these devices for DNA vaccines. They're a bit more refined now. AAS in suspension (i.e. long estered gear that won't go into aqueous solution) won't really work with needle-free injections like this. the suspension forms "clumps" of a size not favorable for passage through the epidermis.
There would be more pain than with needles anyway, the huge bruises after needle-free injections were pretty bad.

DNA moucles are long chain with bigger moleculae weight than AAS bases. so who dose it works with DNA and dosent work with aas?

plus the manufacre states that it works with aqueous steroid solutions!

 

[einstein1905]

DNA moucles are long chain with bigger moleculae weight than AAS bases. so who dose it works with DNA and dosent work with aas?

plus the manufacre states that it works with aqueous steroid solutions!

But DNA molecules are in plasmid form and are supercoiled so as to "appear" much smaller....globular as opposed to linear. Yes, it would work with aqueous steroid solutions, but there is an enormous difference between aqueous steroid solutions and steroid suspensions. When you consider suspensions, the MW of the individual molecules is no longer relevant, as the hormones, due to hydrophobic interactions, 'clump" together. the resulting "clumps" are what need to be considered. Anything that would go into aqueous solution would need to be non-esterified or very short-estered, as mentioned earlier.