Can I take 19-nor only?

Brian132

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will it be ok if i take just 19-nor? Reason is I live in South Africa and the only PH available here is 19-Nor
 
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Brian132

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shutdown = your dick don't work

or

shutdown = your nuts shrinkin'

or

shutdown = you be one dick not workin', shrunken nut, sexless bastard. :trout:
umm thanks for the help...
what would be better then?
 

cookmic5

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umm thanks for the help...
what would be better then?
Depends on your goals. I would guess by the topic of this thread that you are concerned about hairloss and are looking to add strength/bulk. If that is right, then you're going to run into some problems, as most good bulking PH's tend to have a potential side effect of hairloss.

If, however, you just want to bulk and not lose the function of your magic stick and you are not worried about hairloss, then there are a multitude of directions to go including stacking 4AD.
 

Brian132

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Depends on your goals. I would guess by the topic of this thread that you are concerned about hairloss and are looking to add strength/bulk. If that is right, then you're going to run into some problems, as most good bulking PH's tend to have a potential side effect of hairloss.

If, however, you just want to bulk and not lose the function of your magic stick and you are not worried about hairloss, then there are a multitude of directions to go including stacking 4AD.
]

My goals are just to put on size while keeping my bf at around 15%. the problem is I live in South africa and importing would cost ALOT and locally the only PH available is 19-nor (so far). I want to get to about 150 pounds b4 i start PH's any suggestions on a good starter stack?

Stat: 5'5 142 pounds 12% BF
 

cubical

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order bulk powders then and make ur own transdermals, it would be much cheaper this way.
 

Sgt. Ownage

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stack it with 4ad, if you like the ability to get hard for your girlfriend.
 

Lich

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If u can only get 19nor, do it up, just eat alot, lots of water and lots of protein. U might get shutdown, but it wont be horribly bad. U can always start it back up again with some pct after ur cycle.
 

Sgt. Ownage

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are you taking 19-nordione or 19-nordiol?
 

Brian132

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are you taking 19-nordione or 19-nordiol?
I'm not taking any PH's at the moment just eating alot and taking the basic bulking supplements
Finally got my father to get me to use his credit card where's the best place to order PH's online?

My supps are:
multi-vit
B-complex
glutamine
creatine
whey protein
50/50 protein shake
 

jason112233

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I'm not taking any PH's at the moment just eating alot and taking the basic bulking supplements
Finally got my father to get me to use his credit card where's the best place to order PH's online?

My supps are:
multi-vit
B-complex
glutamine
creatine
whey protein
50/50 protein shake
bodybuilding.com is by far the best. Shipment comes 3 days every time and i think their prices are the lowest. They may have some information on how to stack 19nor just make sure you get nolva because you might get tities from 19nor. If you have 5aa that would be a good thing to stack it with.
 

Neuromancer

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bodybuilding.com is by far the best. Shipment comes 3 days every time and i think their prices are the lowest. They may have some information on how to stack 19nor just make sure you get nolva because you might get tities from 19nor. If you have 5aa that would be a good thing to stack it with.
Actually BB.com is pretty high priced. The board sponsors are the best place to buy your supps. Also www.dpsnutrition.net has excellent prices.
 
jas123

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Dermabolics makes a good 19-nor transdermal which you can get at www.1fast400.com. I wouldn't go for too long of a cycle, maybe 2-3 weeks, to avoid being shut down real hard.
 

cookmic5

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I wouldn't go for too long of a cycle, maybe 2-3 weeks, to avoid being shut down real hard.
Then he wouldn't get much out of the cycle. The only PH, and I use that term lightly here, that is appropriate for a 2-3 week cycle is M1T. Furthermore, to avoid being shutdown? you're either shut down or you're not. 19-nor will shut you down, it doesn't get worse in the weeks following, it just manifests itself in the form of testicular atrophy and loss of libido. Cutting off the cycle at the 3 week point would leave him just as shut down as at the 4, 5, or 6 week point, and he wouldn't see much, if any, of the strength or weight gains that he is looking for as those don't usually start until the second week.

cm5
 
jas123

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The longer you're shut down, the harder it is to recover. This what I meant, and I put on 7 lbs in 2 weeks from 19-nor and lost about 1 during PCT. By your logic, you could take ph's for a year straight, then start PCT and everything would be fine when it was done. I don't think so, bro.
 

geoboy

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They may have some information on how to stack 19nor just make sure you get nolva because you might get tities from 19nor. If you have 5aa that would be a good thing to stack it with.
no no no no no no.
19nor doesnt aromatize, so no estrogen, so nolva useless.
deca/nortests/nandrolones/ produce progesterone buildup in some, & progesterone gyno is a bitch, no pun intended.

i think dostinex &/or winny have both been discussed as remedies/receptor competitors respectively. search bodybuilding & elitefitness on progesterone.
 

Brian132

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no no no no no no.
19nor doesnt aromatize, so no estrogen, so nolva useless.
deca/nortests/nandrolones/ produce progesterone buildup in some, & progesterone gyno is a bitch, no pun intended.

i think dostinex &/or winny have both been discussed as remedies/receptor competitors respectively. search bodybuilding & elitefitness on progesterone.
I was thinking the same the geo. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction
 

cookmic5

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The longer you're shut down, the harder it is to recover. This what I meant, and I put on 7 lbs in 2 weeks from 19-nor and lost about 1 during PCT. By your logic, you could take ph's for a year straight, then start PCT and everything would be fine when it was done. I don't think so, bro.
I fail to see your point. If he is going to use an androgen and get shutdown and have to do PCT, then why not run it for a full length of a cycle and get as much as you can out of it? Your example of 7lbs in 2 weeks is an exception to the rule, if it wasn't then there would be a crapload of bros on this forum running 2 week 19nor cycles instead of M1T. Also, and this is my point, how do you know you couldn't have gained 15lbs in 4 weeks? You don't, and don't you think that would've been worth a week or two more of PCT?

Yes, you could take PH's for a year straight and recover because your natural test production is never shut down completly. See Bobo's posts in these threads:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9053&highlight=shut Posts 15 and 16
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11512&highlight=testosterone Posts 7 and 8

So, I would say that it is better to run a full cycle and get as much as you can out of it before you start to see diminishing returns. I would compare length of cycle to dosing. This is like saying you could run 1mg of M1T for a cycle, but that wouldn't give optimal gains and you would essentially waste what you had, or you could use 50mg of M1T for a cycle but you wouldn't gain anymore than you would've on 20mg so you wasted what you had.

What I'm saying is run a complete cycle of whatever it is your going to run and get as much as you can out of the cycle.

cm5
 

cookmic5

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no no no no no no.
19nor doesnt aromatize, so no estrogen, so nolva useless.
deca/nortests/nandrolones/ produce progesterone buildup in some, & progesterone gyno is a bitch, no pun intended.

i think dostinex &/or winny have both been discussed as remedies/receptor competitors respectively. search bodybuilding & elitefitness on progesterone.
Nolva, however is a good option for PCT. It's cheaper than 6OXO and easier on the mood swings/vision issues than clomid.

cm5
 

Brian132

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Nolva, however is a good option for PCT. It's cheaper than 6OXO and easier on the mood swings/vision issues than clomid.

cm5
Down here, we only get a generic version of nolva which actually costs about the same as 6oxo

Edit:It's called Neophedan. Anyone heard of/experienced this stuff?
 

cookmic5

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Down here, we only get a generic version of nolva which actually costs about the same as 6oxo
Have you checked to see if Custom would ship to you and how much? it may be worth it.

cm5
 
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no no no no no no.
19nor doesnt aromatize, so no estrogen, so nolva useless.
deca/nortests/nandrolones/ produce progesterone buildup in some, & progesterone gyno is a bitch, no pun intended.

i think dostinex &/or winny have both been discussed as remedies/receptor competitors respectively. search bodybuilding & elitefitness on progesterone.
Wrong....deca, 19Nors, etc can and will aromatize. The Nor-diol PH is just too weak of a PH to actually cause it in most people. And since it is a diol it cannot aromatize before conversion, that doesn't mean that the PH Nordiol and steroid Deca cannot aromatize...

And using winny for progesterone gyno is also a myth. Using nolva is still your best bet with ANY kind of gyno. Bro, if you're gonna give advice, make sure it's right, okay?

Brian, at 150lbs. even at 5'5", you shouldn't be using androgens at this point in your life. Get up to at least 170-180 and then take the dive bro....
 

Brian132

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Brian, at 150lbs. even at 5'5", you shouldn't be using androgens at this point in your life. Get up to at least 170-180 and then take the dive bro....
Realized i've still got a lot of reading up to do on the subject and by the time i'm ready to take PH's I'll be around that weight anyway
 
jas123

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Cookmic5,

I see what you're saying and thanks for the links. I guess I didn't fully understand shutdown. My point is that I hate the loss of libido and sexual sides that start to come as your nuts shrivel. To me it's not worth it to continue the cycle to the point of no libido and a flacid dick and then have to do a longer PCT. If it's his first cycle, he should take it slow and see if these problems as they start to occur are something he wants to deal with. Some people think it's worth it, I don't.
 

geoboy

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Wrong....deca, 19Nors, etc can and will aromatize. The Nor-diol PH is just too weak of a PH to actually cause it in most people. And since it is a diol it cannot aromatize before conversion, that doesn't mean that the PH Nordiol and steroid Deca cannot aromatize...

And using winny for progesterone gyno is also a myth. Using nolva is still your best bet with ANY kind of gyno. Bro, if you're gonna give advice, make sure it's right, okay?

Brian, at 150lbs. even at 5'5", you shouldn't be using androgens at this point in your life. Get up to at least 170-180 and then take the dive bro....
>>>Using nolva is still your best bet with ANY kind of gyno.
estrogen blocker would be of negligible help with progesterone induced gyno, merely preventing stimulation of the estrogen receptors. Does NOTHING for the progesterone receptors. p.s., if you search bb.com & elite there are many threads with references (anedotal & scientific) supporting my post.

>>deca, 19Nors, etc can and will aromatize
yes, and tofu & soy produce slight estrogen. do you think they will cause bitch tits too? conventional wisdom is that nandrolones produce NEGLIGIBLE amounts of simple estrogen (not liver-affected 17aa long lasting estrogens), and are not an estrogen gyno risk, but are low progesterone gyno risk. if you have secret information everyone else doesnt please support it.

>>Bro, if you're gonna give advice, make sure it's right, okay?
see above, then take your own advice.
like i said, if you have some secret info that is contrary to the conventional wisdom which i pointed out above, please share.
 
lifted

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>>>Using nolva is still your best bet with ANY kind of gyno.
estrogen blocker would be of negligible help with progesterone induced gyno, merely preventing stimulation of the estrogen receptors. Does NOTHING for the progesterone receptors. p.s., if you search bb.com & elite there are many threads with references (anedotal & scientific) supporting my post.

>>deca, 19Nors, etc can and will aromatize
yes, and tofu & soy produce slight estrogen. do you think they will cause bitch tits too? conventional wisdom is that nandrolones produce NEGLIGIBLE amounts of simple estrogen (not liver-affected 17aa long lasting estrogens), and are not an estrogen gyno risk, but are low progesterone gyno risk. if you have secret information everyone else doesnt please support it.

>>Bro, if you're gonna give advice, make sure it's right, okay?
see above, then take your own advice.
like i said, if you have some secret info that is contrary to the conventional wisdom which i pointed out above, please share.

You said that deca and 19Nors CANNOT aromatize....fact is, THEY CAN....

Nolva is your best bet in helping ANY kind of gyno...just because it is caused by prog in this case, that doesn't mean that the actual gyno problem cannot be taken care of with nolva. If estrogen is blocked in the first place, then progesterone and prolactin levels cannot effect receptor sites and thus cause gyno. If you take away the excess E then in return you'll have less excess prog and porlactin levels thus reducing and/or alleviating gyno symptoms...

BTW buddy, Elite is WRONG on a lot of issues...if you wanna follow them then be ready to get set straight here...
 

geoboy

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You said that deca and 19Nors CANNOT aromatize....fact is, THEY CAN....

Nolva is your best bet in helping ANY kind of gyno...just because it is caused by prog in this case, that doesn't mean that the actual gyno problem cannot be taken care of with nolva. If estrogen is blocked in the first place, then progesterone and prolactin levels cannot effect receptor sites and thus cause gyno. If you take away the excess E then in return you'll have less excess prog and porlactin levels thus reducing and/or alleviating gyno symptoms...

BTW buddy, Elite is WRONG on a lot of issues...if you wanna follow them then be ready to get set straight here...
>>You said that deca and 19Nors CANNOT aromatize....fact is, THEY CAN....
i'll leave it for others to judge which information is more useful when dealing with the issue of nandrolone & gyno in the real world:
me: negligible estrogen even at high doses that virtually never causes estrogenic gyno (do you agree or disagree?)
you: but it CAN aromatize (to what effect?)


Your advice of nolva for progesterone gyno gives false comfort.
nolva + estrogen = no gyno (most cases)
nolva + progesterone = most say almost no help. a tiny minority say very small help.

Do you disagree that the conventional wisdom from experienced bro's at all levels (not just on elite) is that nolvadex is _almost_ useless for progesterone gyno? if nolva was the fix, wouldnt we all know this by now? nolva & deca/fina arent new.

again real world, which advice is more useful?
me : dostinex ( progesterone specific)
you: nolvadex (some marginal help, maybe) ??


>>Elite is WRONG on a lot of issues
oh. do tell....
 
lifted

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>>You said that deca and 19Nors CANNOT aromatize....fact is, THEY CAN....
i'll leave it for others to judge which information is more useful when dealing with the issue of nandrolone & gyno in the real world:
me: negligible estrogen even at high doses that virtually never causes estrogenic gyno (do you agree or disagree?)
you: but it CAN aromatize (to what effect?)
Bro, you said yourself in an earlier post in this thread that deca and 19 Nors DON'T aromatize....YOU'RE WRONG!!..why donn't you understand that bro? I was just saying that they can and if prone to gyno like some are, it can and will cause gyno...


Your advice of nolva for progesterone gyno gives false comfort.
nolva + estrogen = no gyno (most cases)
nolva + progesterone = most say almost no help. a tiny minority say very small help.

Do you disagree that the conventional wisdom from experienced bro's at all levels (not just on elite) is that nolvadex is _almost_ useless for progesterone gyno? if nolva was the fix, wouldnt we all know this by now? nolva & deca/fina arent new.
No, I said that nolva is your best option. If you rid ALL E in the receptors then you RID all prog, and prolactin.....get it yet buddy? Excess prog and prolactin levels are only around when excess E is.....again, rid the E, rid the PROG, and PROLACTIN...And yes, I disagree, I like to get my OWN info and not follow the crowd like most *ahem*....

Fina/deca aren't new? Actually tren is quite new....mass users have only been "researching" since the last 6 or os years if I'm not mistaken. Deca, yes has been around the block. But does that mean that people will know how to treat sides with knowledge? Remember man, PCT wasn't even alwasy used back in the day. Most people didn't even know what it was back then. So to say that if it was true, then we'd know it is bullshit...

again real world, which advice is more useful?
me : dostinex ( progesterone specific)
you: nolvadex (some marginal help, maybe) ??
I never said that Dostinex, etc can't or won't help. I think that Tamoxifen is your best bet when dealing with progeterone gyno. You could absolutely benefit from using both, but if I had to choose just one, nolva is the winner.


Elite is WRONG on a lot of issues
oh. do tell....
Yes, Elite sucks, it's filled with a bunch of mindless idiots and they edit posts.....what about Elite should I actually like now? :trout:
 
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lifted

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no no no no no no.
19nor doesnt aromatize, so no estrogen, so nolva useless.
There you go, you said it, not me. I was just correcting you. They can aromatize. If you meant to say that they don't aromatize to a considerable amount than you should of said that in the first place.
 
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geoboy

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Bro, you said yourself in an earlier post in this thread that deca and 19 Nors DON'T aromatize....YOU'RE WRONG!!..why donn't you understand that bro? I was just saying that they can and if prone to gyno like some are, it can and will cause gyno...




No, I said that nolva is your best option. If you rid ALL E in the receptors then you RID all prog, and prolactin.....get it yet buddy? Excess prog and prolactin levels are only around when excess E is.....again, rid the E, rid the PROG, and PROLACTIN...And yes, I disagree, I like to get my OWN info and not follow the crowd like most *ahem*....

Fina/deca aren't new? Actually tren is quite new....mass users have only been "researching" since the last 6 or os years if I'm not mistaken. Deca, yes has been around the block. But does that mean that people will know how to treat sides with knowledge? Remember man, PCT wasn't even alwasy used back in the day. Most people didn't even know what it was back then. So to say that if it was true, then we'd know it is bullshit...



I never said that Dostinex, etc can't or won't help. I think that Tamoxifen is your best bet when dealing with progeterone gyno. You could absolutely benefit from using both, but if I had to choose just one, nolva is the winner.




Yes, Elite sucks, it's filled with a bunch of mindless idiots and they edit posts.....what about Elite should I actually like now? :trout:
welll you apparantly know everything, even secret stuff no one else knows. even bro's who've actually been around the block a few times, and not just read something somewhere once. so i wont waste any more of your time.

maybe you'll deign to share your sources and cites for your assertions. you do have studies to back up your herasy, don't you? you see in the real world, when you buck conventional wisdom, the burden of proof is on you. talk's cheap.

>>Yes, Elite sucks, it's filled with a bunch of mindless idiots and they edit posts
Res Ipsa Loquitor

wait.... let me guess.... they banned/shunned you?
 
lifted

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welll you apparantly know everything, even secret stuff no one else knows. even bro's who've actually been around the block a few times, and not just read something somewhere once. so i wont waste any more of your time.
LOL, quite the contrary my friend....what color is the pot here?

maybe you'll deign to share your sources and cites for your assertions. you do have studies to back up your herasy, don't you? you see in the real world, when you buck conventional wisdom, the burden of proof is on you. talk's cheap.
Umm....I think you can find those basic studies yourself, no? It doesn't take a genius to know that when you reduce E, you reduce prolactin and progesterone...

Yes, Elite sucks, it's filled with a bunch of mindless idiots and they edit posts
Res Ipsa Loquitor

wait.... let me guess.... they banned/shunned you?

No, actually I've never been there besides when someone links a post there and I'll have a look around. I never have and never will be a memeber at that **** board. Lemme guess, you're a well respected man over there? :rolleyes: LOL...figures, they have the ultra-intellects of the game representing them.... :trout: :icon_lol:
 

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There you go, you said it, not me. I was just correcting you. They can aromatize. If you meant to say that they don't aromatize to a considerable amount than you should of said that in the first place.
Think real world. Think forrest, not trees.

In terms of the end result, and the subject being discussed (gyno)..... you fill in the rest.

argue with yourself, i'm moving on.
 
lifted

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Think real world. Think forrest, not trees.

In terms of the end result, and the subject being discussed (gyno)..... you fill in the rest.

argue with yourself, i'm moving on.
Yeah, umm...that is real world dude. You're the one that stated that your method was documented in studies, so that makes the Tamoxifen theory related to both real world and science.

I'm not arguing with anybody bro, everyone here with some education in the subject will agree. You're the one that's not too clear here.

Whatever man, wasn't trying to be an ass in the first place, just saying that it's wise that you get your info straight before relaying it to a newbie with concerns. But now that I see that you have some brains and Elite has probably brainwashed them, I can respect that... :rant: :whip: :rofl:
 

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Response to Earlier post: The first time I started andro cook I took 600 mg of 1ad and gained 5 pounds the first 2 weeks. After that the gains in pundage wise seemed limited but I definatley got more defined which is characteristic of 1ad. I should have measured my bf to see how much fat I lost.
 

geoboy

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here's recent input from a doctor re progesterone & bromo & winstrol. he's apparantly confused also (NOT). Jergo will have to straighten him out. enjoy.

http://elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330599

Re: Best for dealing with progesterone???
First of all, the Nandrolones don't influence progesterone, they imitate them. The nandrolones stimulate progesterone receptors. The major problem we see is elevated prolactin levels. There are two ways to combat the proalctin problem. One is with Dostinex. Dostinex is much safer and easier to dose than bromo, for one. Two, it is the drug of choice for safely and rapidly lowering prolactin levels. Three, this med works for everyone. The only downside is the cost of the med.

The second approach is to try to block progesterone receptors. Stanozolol (winstrol) is pretty effective at blocking progesterone receptors. That is why I suggest stacking Winstrol with the Nandrolones. Of course, all of this is predicated on the athlete using doses of around 400-600mg total nandrolone weekly or less.
 
lifted

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here's recent input from a doctor re progesterone & bromo & winstrol. he's apparantly confused also (NOT). Jergo will have to straighten him out. enjoy.

http://elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330599

Re: Best for dealing with progesterone???
First of all, the Nandrolones don't influence progesterone, they imitate them. The nandrolones stimulate progesterone receptors. The major problem we see is elevated prolactin levels. There are two ways to combat the proalctin problem. One is with Dostinex. Dostinex is much safer and easier to dose than bromo, for one. Two, it is the drug of choice for safely and rapidly lowering prolactin levels. Three, this med works for everyone. The only downside is the cost of the med.

The second approach is to try to block progesterone receptors. Stanozolol (winstrol) is pretty effective at blocking progesterone receptors. That is why I suggest stacking Winstrol with the Nandrolones. Of course, all of this is predicated on the athlete using doses of around 400-600mg total nandrolone weekly or less.

Gee another informative post from our douchebags at Elite fitness. How nice... :rolleyes:

What exactly does that say that you haven't already said and that I told my point of view on in retraction?

He's a doctor, okay, whats' your point? Why is it so hard to understand what I said before? Here, I'll type it REALLY slow so that you can understand better. Reduce E levels, in turn reduces prol/prog levels. Obviously you don't know how certain mechanisms work and react, and don't know how to keep an open mind on things. Go back to Elite where your mighty gods reside...
 

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What exactly does that say that you haven't already said and that I told my point of view on in retraction?
..
you mean to say "rebuttal" or "refutation" or "response". although a "retraction" (sic) really is what is required.
:hammer:

peace out.
 
lifted

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you mean to say "rebuttal" or "refutation" or "response". although a "retraction" (sic) really is what is required.
:hammer:

peace out.

LMAO!! You get the point though....I'm just a little slow sometimes....

If bromo/dos is where it's at then so be it. I'll have to read up more on it and possibly give it a whirl, it certainly can't hurt. But nolva should always be on hand regardless and IMO that would be what I soley relied on....
 
lifted

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geoboy, Bobo (the human study finder machine) has a lot of great info in this thread, if you haven't already read it. Again, prog/prol problems are/will only be present when excess E levels are outstanding. So take away the E, take away the prog/prol.

Have a read through the whole thread, it's defiantely worth it.
http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14977

Differing opinions clash and sometimes us "Test freaks" take it out of context.... :thumbsup:
 

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