Stacking mo4hn and m-dien advice
- 06-29-2004, 03:52 PM
Stacking mo4hn and m-dien advice
First let me say great board been a quiet lurker for a while...
Anyway my question:
I got some of DS's mo4hn and M-dien. I need some opinions on a good stack. I'm going start cutting soon.
My training program is more sports directed (multi joint excersies) 3 days weights 2 days speed and agility training.
I'm currently (28) 5"11 220 ~15% body fat. I've read some thing on this board about people stacking both of these compounds but there not real clear on dosages.
- 06-29-2004, 04:45 PM
Well first off you are going to get a number of responses from individuals stating how stacking methyls is bad so be ready. While methyls should not be stacked, there are some individuals who have done so with good results. I would make sure you are using your liver protectants throughout and PCT as with any methyl or PH/PS for that fact. (Milk thisel<sp?, r-ALA, NAC).
Once recommended stack for these two for cutting is
M-Dien 5mg ED
M4OHN 8mg ED
These take about a week or so before you will start seeing/feeling anything so don't start bumping up the doses after a couple of days. The doses are lower then if you would be taking them by themself due to the fact that they are both methyls and higher doses stacked would be taxing your liver more than is needed. Also plan on running at least 4 weeks, preferably 6 weeks.
I personally would recommend a 1/2 glass or more of Grapefruit juice about 30 mins to 1 hour before taking the MDien or M4OHN as this will provide more with a lower dose. I have had very positive experiences using GFJ with both of these.
Originally Posted by theoc
- 06-29-2004, 05:07 PM
06-29-2004, 05:26 PM
I wouldn't stack them, but because -- I think one or the other will give the exact same results. Stack with 1-test!
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06-29-2004, 09:07 PM
I'm with D.....theres nothing wrong with stacking Methyls, but stacking two "dry" compounds is silly. Try M1T or M1,4ADD with one of these.
06-30-2004, 02:27 AM
These are fine to stack. MDien turned out to be MUCH less liver toxic than people thought (recent posted bloodwork showed no elevation in levels for a test subject at 220 dosing @ 12+mg/day). Of course you should take your ancillaries, but this substance is quite safe.
At your weight, MDien won't do much unless you're @ 8mg/day.
M4OHN is also a very mild substance. I would say stacking 8mg of MDien and 12mg of M4OHN a day is a great 4-week cutting cycle.
Now--MANY people on this board take 20mg+ of M1T each day, and this has been shown to be WAY harsh on blood lipids, liver, shutdown, etc., so I don't follow the rationale that 20mg. of two mild androgrens would be worse.
I just finished 4 weeks of MDien @ 8mg/day (200 pounds) and am going to finish up with 12-16mg/day of M4OHN for a few weeks. The MDien totally worked, cut me up, lost a lot of BF...it doesn't hit until the end of the second week--then you start seeing a lot of definition, hardness, and separation...I didn't think it was working b/c no sides, etc., but then my pants were loose, my abs poked out, etc. I'm sold on MDien...hoping M4OHN is as good.
06-30-2004, 06:37 AM
I think he'd want to watch water retention on a cutting cycle, which would keep the dose of M1,4ADD down, or favor M1T. Or better yet a nonmethyl version of 1T.Originally Posted by Skark
06-30-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally Posted by BrodusPlease provide the sources of this information.Originally Posted by Brodus
06-30-2004, 10:45 AM
I honestly don't have fifteen minutes to search through all of the threads on this board to give you the links. They're here, though. I believe SuperSoldier has an MDien thread with bloodwork, I know that Sledge has posted at length on it, and I think Pogue posted on it, following a test...I know this is a subject of much debate, but I can tell you after doing all of these methyls, that Mdien and M4OHN are so mild as to make you think they're not even working at first.
Re: M4OHN, it is commonly referred to as a mild version of Anavar, which is a VERY MILD androgen, the only one prescribed for young people.
Now, if you're talking liver values ONLY, I don't have a definitive study of that shows M4OHN and Mdien together are ultra safe...but I know there is also no study showing the opposite...in addition, after taking M1T, M4OHN, and MDien in varying doses, I can say personally, the only thing that made me feel like massive **** in a hurry was M1T, while the other two were side effect free.
Lastly, compared to the regular doses of oral AAS that users routinely ingest, 20mgs. comprised of two methyls (as long as one isn't M1T--I would NEVER stack that) doesn't seem like all that much.
But this is just my take...
06-30-2004, 11:02 AM
06-30-2004, 11:06 AM
I don't agree with stacking methyls, but I know some do it at low-moderate doses of each. Toxicity aside, will low dosing M4OHN & M-dien together be any more effective of a cycle of either 1 of them at normal to high dosing? I doubt it, so why take on the potential risk? Thats my opinion at least.
06-30-2004, 08:22 PM
Bloodwork done by Sledge and his testers......Originally Posted by Cogar
06-30-2004, 08:26 PM
I dont know... I believe this stack would prove very beneficial. Should get some really good solid gains on them amounts. Only positive effects for sides, and dry lean gains... that will stick.
06-30-2004, 08:56 PM
Well bros, I read just about everything here and I cannot recall seeing any lab results for MDein, M4OHN, M4OHT, etc. Incidentally, a report by someone that "I got blood work done and the results were good" or "I felt like screwing every chick in sight" is no proof that these compounds are not hepatotoxic, let alone safe to use together. Posted numbers for the tests tell the story--and it takes more than standard blood panels to measure liver damage.
07-01-2004, 10:15 AM
Me and My Methyl Big-D
"Last Friday was 8 days into an accurately dosed batch of M-Dien from www.designersupps.com at 5mg. Pumps in the gym are great, also there is a pumped feeling in my arms just about 24/7. My delts are definitely more pronounced too. I have since bumped the dose to 7mg.
AST 84; ALT 77; LDH 234; GGT 13; ALP 65; ALB 3.9; Cholesterol 98; HDL 31.2; Testosterone 93.68; LH 3.00; Progesterone 0.12; Prolactin 11.48; FSH 1.07; Cortisol 5.57; Estradiol 18.96
TBIL and DBIL were not run due to machine problems.
I've actually been running the M-Dien for longer but it was the flavored version that fell out of solution. A female friend of mine saw me in a tank-top the other day and said "Oh my God, you're getting bigger!"
"Today: 15 days total on this batch, 8 days at 5mg, 7 days at 7mg. 8 days on Pro-Sust.
AST 99; ALT 103; LDH 277; GGT 12; ALP 62; TBIL 1.4; DBIL 0.2; ALB 4.1; Cholesterol 95; HDL 29.2; LH 0.07; FSH 0.00; Progesterone 0.53; Prolactin 15.23; Cortisol 16.40; Now for the fun part Testosterone 1068.17; Estradiol 93.71"
I've seen ALT values over twice this high from 3 week cycles of 20mg. M1T
For instance, after 7 days on M1T, SS posted this:
"Day 7, 6.5 hrs after dosing, AST 171, ALT 238, LD 304, GGT 10, ALP 47, TBIL 0.8, DBIL 0.2, ALB 4.0, Cholesterol 45, Triglycerides 16."
This Is Your Liver...
"SS tested it up to 15mgs per day, with no problems at all. I doubt its more toxic then M1T.
I posted a new dosing scheme, try do ing a search and you should find it, but they may help you guys thinking of going higher."
I've got to get back to work right now, but Sledge said in one of the threads that he would provide bloodwork results from testere to those who desire--shoot him an email.
Just so you know, I am all about safety, and wouldn't advocate stacking most methyls, and would never stack M1T w/another methyl, but these compounds are mild on all sides, and I don't see the harm in stacking them at a reasonable dose. No one has proven a 1 + 1 = 4 hepatoxicity relationship between two different methyls, so I am comfortable saying that if people do 30mg cycles of M1T, the harshest legal available, than a 20mg combo of M4OHN and MDien is not the end of the world.
07-01-2004, 11:49 AM
Thank you, that helps. Let me say that I am not familiar with all of these tests, although I am familiar with most of them. Looking at some numbers that tell us about the liver:
Regarding M-Dien, 8 days at 5mg, next 7 days at 7mg:
AST is a measure of liver damage and the normal range is 5-38. (As a reference, mine is 22.) 84 (8 days) and 99 (15 days) is 3-5 times the expected figure and I think it is a reasonable first approximation to state that something is stressing the liver.
ALT is a little more liver specific as I understand it, with a normal range (again) of 5-38. (Mine was 20, the last time I had it checked.) As before, 77 (8 days) and 103 (15 days) is 3-5 times the values expected.
ALB (albumin?) is typically 3.5-5.5 for a liver that is functioning properly. (My last test placed it at 4.7.) 3.9 and 4.1 are also in the "good" range.
Quickie analysis: M-Dien does stress the liver--and therefore I would consider it risky to combine it with another methyl.
Regarding M 1-T, 20mg each day:
No surprises here, with an AST of 171 and ALT of 238, things are getting ugly. Again, ALB at 4.0 is no problem. Since supersoldier was running 20mg ed, which many of us consider a strong dose, 10mg ed may have produced numbers closer to those of M-Dien. Of course, this is a guess.
07-01-2004, 02:46 PM
Yes, agreed, MDien does stress the liver, but nowhere near M1T. I agree,
Now, M4OHN is apparently the most liver friendly of the methyls-->I got this from Author L. Rea. Again, search for his name, and you can find this. He says he's been using M4OHN in place of Anavar w/ clients for years, and that it is very mild w/ no elevation in liver values @ up to 40mg/day.
I agree that stacking methyls is something that requires bloodwork, dedication to your goals (i.e. enough sleep, no drinking, etc), and expert use of anciallries (meaning start the milk thistle/hawthorne/NAC three weeks or more BEFORE the cycle). If I were to stack them, these would be the two I would stack in conservative doses.
07-01-2004, 02:49 PM
i remember reading that over at BB from author rea.
but - who has been producing M4OHN for years?
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07-01-2004, 05:00 PM
I found the thread, Rea is on page 3.
The relevant quotation:
Although this does indicate this being relatively "mild," it is not an indication that it is sufficiently "liver friendly" to stack with another methyl IMO. It would have been better if Rea gave some values for ALT and AST, since I do not know what typical values for Oxandrolone would be.As to dosages...If relative activity were absolute real world then Halotestin at 10mg/d would result in every user being ripped at 250lbs plus. In truth I have used this compound (M 4-OHN) with many clients for many years as a replacement for Oxandrolone and found the rate of anabolism to be about equal milligram for milligram (which certainly is no joke). The elevation on liver ALT and AST has thus far been no more than that of Oxandrolone and HPTA inhibition is less in comparison at dosages as high as 50mg/d (Though that is not a reasonable dosage to say the least)
07-01-2004, 05:09 PM
A comment: According to Chemical Muscle, Oxandrolone (Anavar--the compound Rea compares to M4OHN) has the following characteristic (among others):
Liver Toxic: Yes, c17-alfa-alkylated steroid. Due to low dosages toxicity is low-moderate.
07-01-2004, 08:19 PM
The word TOXIC seems to misunderstood here. Toxic means the liver gets to filter the substance in question. Even small amounts of alcohol is toxic, but only after decades of heavy abuse do hardcore alkys have problems.
Bodybuilders have been taking methyl products since the early 60s, without significant damage.......with much higher amounts and durations than we are discussing. Really, I think 10 mgs of one thing and 15 mgs of another isn't a big deal.
07-02-2004, 12:29 PM
Taking methyls and stacking methyls are two different things.Originally Posted by Skark
07-02-2004, 12:31 PM
Just curious-->are there studies showing a compounding effect from stacking Methyls, vs. high dosing a single methyl?
07-02-2004, 07:22 PM
Common sense says there isn't a difference for a given mg threshold. If it is OK to take 20 mgs of M1T, which everyone agrees is the most harsh, it doesn't make sense that taking 5 mgs of M1T and 10 mgs of 4OHN can be worse. In fact, Sledges blood tests on stacks vs single compounds at higher dosages indicate otherwise.Originally Posted by Cogar
What we DON'T want to promote is someone stacking 20 mgs of M1t with 20 mgs 4OHN. Then you are like those idiots on 'roid boards who inject grams of stuff each week.
07-02-2004, 08:46 PM
I would love to see the actual data.Originally Posted by Skark
07-04-2004, 08:42 AM
07-04-2004, 12:48 PM
How much do liver values rise from moderate alcohol consumption? Anyone have any data on this? Say I drink just one 40 every night for 3 weeks straight - would this be enough to elevate enzymes?
07-04-2004, 07:40 PM
Good find.Originally Posted by swany
Description: 6 week cycle - M-Dien 7mg /day for 4 weeks, M4OHN 16mg/day for the last 3 weeks (one week at M-Dien 7mg /day and M4OHN 16mg/day). Test taken during the last week.
AST is a measure of liver damage and the normal range is 5-38. At 64, his level was approaching double the high end of the range. Not bad, but not great. (Note: the poster states his doctor said the norm is 0-50, although if you check medical sites on the Internet, you will find that most agree that something is wrong when the value starts going into the 40s.)
ALT is more liver specific, again with a normal range of 5-38. At 69, the value was about double the high end of the normal range.
As a comment, the M-Dien was probably out of his system by the time they took the blood test, and the week where he took both was also history. It would have been great if he had data from the end of week 4.
As an overall evaluation I would attribute most of this result to taking M4OHN 16mg ED. If that guess is correct, it does seem to be the mildest of the three methyls for which we have test data in this thread.
07-04-2004, 07:47 PM
It would raise GGT (not a common test) as well as AST and ALT. I do not know how much. As we discussed in another thread, there are a variety of additional things that affect all blood tests, which is why they typically draw blood in the morning before people have eaten anything. The purpose (for most of us) is to find out how our internal organs are working and a 12-hour fast helps the test render accurate values.Originally Posted by Kelly Baggett
07-04-2004, 09:06 PM
There is no reason not to test GGT. I use Health Tests Direct, and for $42 I get: blood draw ($15), comprehensive metabolic profile [includes AST, ALT, and more] ($20), GGT ($7). GGT levels are the single best indicator for serious/long term damage. If you eat, drink, or work out hard too soon before your blood draw, your AST and ALT levels will be significantly higher than they would otherwise be.Originally Posted by Cogar
07-05-2004, 08:23 AM
Cogar, I was under the assumption that he was on the MDien and the m4ohn throughout the cycle.Originally Posted by Cogar
here's what he stated
"I'm 31, 6'0" and fluctuate between 180-190 lbs (off/on cycles...). I am pretty experienced with using Ph/Ps with multiple cycles under my belt. This last cycle was 6 weeks - 7mgs MD/day with 4Derm transdermal (6 sprays twice daily) for the first 4 weeks. At the end of week three I started M4OHN at 16mgs/day for the last three weeks (stopping 4Derm after week 4). I supp'd with Pro-Liver, R-ala as well as a good multi and Vit E. I love V-12 by San, but have cut out using any hemodilators (Arginine products, citrulline, etc...)as I seem to have lost any good results from them)."
I thought he just stopped the 4Derm after week 4. Wouldn't this suggest m4ohn is even safer? Do you still think he stopped MD early?
07-05-2004, 05:07 PM
You may be right regarding taking the M-Dien through the entire cycle. I took the antecedent of the phrase "for the first 4 weeks" as applying to the M-Dien. If it applied to the 4-Aderm instead, I agree that it appears he took the M-Dien for the entire 6 weeks. I still believe he only took the M4OHN during the final three weeks. The best way to find out is to ask. I don't want to sign up to ask one question, but if anyone else reading this would care to do so (or is already a member), the additional information would help.Originally Posted by swany
03-11-2005, 05:10 AM
I UNDERSTAND ANAVAR IS GIVEN TO CHILDREN WITH GROWTH PROBLEMS,AND IT IS THE ONLY STEROID THAT DOES NOT CLOSE GROWTH PLATES....SINCE MOHN IS SIMILAR AND AUTHOR REA RECOMMENDS IT IN PLACE OF ANAVAR ;DOES ANYONE KNOW IF TAKING MONH CLOSES THE GROWTH PLATES?
I WOULD THINK NO.
03-11-2005, 05:41 PM
Growth Plate closing
Whether or not a growth plate will prematurely close in a younger user is primarily related to whether to androgen taken will aromatize into an estrogen (or whether it possesses sufficient intrinsic estrogenic activity). It is believed to be estrogen action that closes the growth plates. Anavar doesn't close the growth plates because it, due to to the lactone structure of the a-ring, simply cannot aromatize to an estrogenic compound. If a growing individual were to take sufficient amounts of an estrogen (estradiol, estrone, etc), the same thing will happen as if they took large amonts of an aromatizing androgen (like testosterone, testosterone mesters, D-Bol, etc). It is purported that MOHN will not aromatize, and if it does, it is not clear if it does to any great extent, and furthermore, it might aromatize primarily into a 3,4-dihydroxy-17-methyl estradiol which should be a "fairly" weak estrogen. Of course, my information on MOHN is only what appears on the internet and previous advertisements, I am not sure what or whether it has been demonstrated to do in a peer reviewed journal (scientific literature).
03-12-2005, 01:51 AM
exactly. mohn hasnt been out long.theres not alot of reseached information on it.
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