Prohomone?

[kkevin56]

I started a thread a couple days ago on a different section and I need some help deciding what to start for a cycle. Im deciding whether to start injecting or stick to prohormones. I havent gained a lot using prohormones and I either need a prohormone thats strong or a good inject cycle. Im 22 y/o 180lbs 15% bf, looking to get up to 215 as an overall goal. but i mostly want to gain lean muscle though. thanks guys!

 

[Rosie Chee]

I started a thread a couple days ago on a different section and I need some help deciding what to start for a cycle. Im deciding whether to start injecting or stick to prohormones. I havent gained a lot using prohormones and I either need a prohormone thats strong or a good inject cycle. Im 22 y/o 180lbs 15% bf, looking to get up to 215 as an overall goal. but i mostly want to gain lean muscle though. thanks guys!

Even though you've used hormonals before, this is the best reponse in your other thread, whether you want to hear it or not:

I would recommend not touching phs for a dew more years. Your young still and your body is at its prime. There is no need to go that route. Eat healthy food, do cardio and take creatine. This should get you some mass and lower your bodyfat.

You're 22 years old. You want to gain muscle. If you want gains, then you need to eat enough for them, and no supplement is going to help you gain muscle if you're not eating for it, period! At your age NUTRITION and TRAINING are the two factors that you need to focus on. FOOD, FOOD, and MORE FOOD is going to be IMPORTANT - if you want muscle gains, you needs to EAT for it!

Next to nutrition for mass is training. You have to be training correctly for mass - check out the article How To Maximize Mass Through Weights And Adaptation for an idea of how to train correctly for mass. And although The Essential 8 is in the fat loss section, the same exercises that are best for fat loss are also the best for gaining muscle! You also need to NOT lift almost daily - your body NEEDS recovery, since it's in your RECOVERY that you GROW (if you are eating enough).

Supplements are the LAST thing to look at. Make sure you're also using your Basic Staples (creatine, multivitamin/antioxidant, good fats, protein, and BCAAs). Then, instead of turning to hormonals, look at using a NATURAL Testosterone boosting stack, as R1balla recommended in your other thread, FREE TEST/IGF-2 would make an awesome stack. The Testosterone Recovery Stack is another good one.

There is no reason for you NOT to make gains using natural stacks!

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

Thanks so much Rosie your right! thanks for helping. The reason why I posted another one I just wanted to see a couple different options but I definitely know now I'm going with what R1balla and you said. I'm going to save prohormones and injecting till I'm older if anything. thanks again!

 

[Rosie Chee]

Thanks so much Rosie your right! thanks for helping. The reason why I posted another one I just wanted to see a couple different options but I definitely know now I'm going with what R1balla and you said. I'm going to save prohormones and injecting till I'm older if anything. thanks again!

No worries - you know I'll give it to you straight, harsh or not

Waiting is definitely the smartest decision right now - you have so much more natural potential to explore and maximize!

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

No worries - you know I'll give it to you straight, harsh or not

Waiting is definitely the smartest decision right now - you have so much more natural potential to explore and maximize!

~Rosie~

Yes I know I just have one Question for HGHup with Prime or IGF2 and free test. How long of a cycle should I do of that because for the HGHup and IGF2 I heard that it takes a while for it to start working. I dont know if its true though.

 

[Rosie Chee]

Yes I know I just have one Question for HGHup with Prime or IGF2 and free test. How long of a cycle should I do of that because for the HGHup and IGF2 I heard that it takes a while for it to start working. I dont know if its true though.

8-12 weeks is the general recommended period of time for natural stacks.

As far as HGHup and IGF-2 - from personal experience, I definitely noticed effects after a few DAYS (I can tell when I am NOT using IGF-2 and when I am), and they should kick in within a week, depending on whether or not you start out at half or full dosage (I recommend for many to start at half the recommended dosage - dosages are on the product label - for the firs few days, to combat any lethargy that might be experienced from the extra release of Growth Hormone).

At the end of the day, everyone is different, and so I cannot say when YOU will notice the products kick in, even if most people notice the effects within a week.

I also would personally choose IGF-2/FREE TEST over HGHup/Prime.

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

8-12 weeks is the general recommended period of time for natural stacks.

As far as HGHup and IGF-2 - from personal experience, I definitely noticed effects after a few DAYS (I can tell when I am NOT using IGF-2 and when I am), and they should kick in within a week, depending on whether or not you start out at half or full dosage (I recommend for many to start at half the recommended dosage - dosages are on the product label - for the firs few days, to combat any lethargy that might be experienced from the extra release of Growth Hormone).

At the end of the day, everyone is different, and so I cannot say when YOU will notice the products kick in, even if most people notice the effects within a week.

I also would personally choose IGF-2/FREE TEST over HGHup/Prime.

~Rosie~

What Free test do you recommend. Which Brand worked best for you? and thanks again Rosie!

 

[CrazyChemist]

I also would personally choose IGF-2/FREE TEST over HGHup/Prime.

~Rosie~

IGF-2 is a neutriceuticals product, yes? not an inject?

 

[Rosie Chee]

What Free test do you recommend. Which Brand worked best for you? and thanks again Rosie!

There are many products out there can increase Free Testosterone, but both R1balla and I are referring to the actual product FREE TEST from Applied Nutriceuticals. Read about it: Applied Nutriceuticals :: FREE TEST. Check out my experience with it: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/154790-female-terminator-trains.html.

~Rosie~

 

[Rosie Chee]

IGF-2 is a neutriceuticals product, yes? not an inject?

Yes, IGF-2 is a natural Growth Hormone/Testosterone booster from Applied Nutriceuticals (having been here as long as you have, would have thought you would already know that).

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

There are many products out there can increase Free Testosterone, but both R1balla and I are referring to the actual product FREE TEST from Applied Nutriceuticals. Read about it: Applied Nutriceuticals :: FREE TEST. Check out my experience with it: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/154790-female-terminator-trains.html.

~Rosie~

WOW you did a great job! I definitely cant wait to try some Im ordering some either tonight or tomorrow morning! I cant wait to get in the gym! thanks Rosie! your the best!

 

[Rosie Chee]

WOW you did a great job! I definitely cant wait to try some Im ordering some either tonight or tomorrow morning! I cant wait to get in the gym! thanks Rosie! your the best!

It wasn't ALL me, LOL. You're welcome

 

[kkevin56]

It wasn't ALL me, LOL. You're welcome

haha, So just to reassure a 12 week cycle of Free Test and IGF-2
IGF2- 6pills ED week 1-12
Free test- 4pills ED week 3-12
Would that be a good cycle?

 

[CrazyChemist]

Yes, IGF-2 is a natural Growth Hormone/Testosterone booster from Applied Nutriceuticals (having been here as long as you have, would have thought you would already know that).

~Rosie~

Yeah you wouldve thought. Note somatomedin C and somatomedin A are proteins, neither of which is actually in IGF-2 from what ive read.

 

[Rosie Chee]

haha, So just to reassure a 12 week cycle of Free Test and IGF-2
IGF2- 6pills ED week 1-12
Free test- 4pills ED week 3-12
Would that be a good cycle?

Well, you could start IGF-2 first, but you're better off using FREE TEST right from the start.

And read the labels (recommended dosing is on them!) - you need to dose 8 caps of IGF-2 daily (except the first week if you go with 4 caps for a few days).

Dosing/Timing

IGF-2
Resistance Training Days
Dose 1 - 3 caps first thing
Dose 2 - 3 caps ~40 min pre-training
Dose 3 - 2 caps pre-bed
Non-Resistance Training Days
Dose 1 - 4 caps first thing
Dose 2 - 4 caps pre-bed

FREE TEST
Dose - 4 caps first thing

~Rosie~

 

[Rosie Chee]

Yeah you wouldve thought. Note somatomedin C and somatomedin A are proteins, neither of which is actually in IGF-2 from what ive read.

Relevance? The ingredient profile does not list them as being in the product - therefore they are not in the product. Not sure why you would think they were.

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

Well, you could start IGF-2 first, but you're better off using FREE TEST right from the start.

And read the labels (recommended dosing is on them!) - you need to dose 8 caps of IGF-2 daily (except the first week if you go with 4 caps for a few days).

Dosing/Timing

IGF-2
Resistance Training Days
Dose 1 - 3 caps first thing
Dose 2 - 3 caps first thing
Dose 3 - 3 caps pre-bed
Non-Resistance Training Days
Dose 1 - 4 caps first thing
Dose 2 - 4 caps pre-bed

FREE TEST
Dose - 4 caps first thing

~Rosie~

so 9 caps of IGF2 on training days, and when you say first thing twice do you mean when i wake up then dose 2 before the gym?

 

[Rosie Chee]

so 9 caps of IGF2 on training days, and when you say first thing twice do you mean when i wake up then dose 2 before the gym?

No, EIGHT caps (corrected my typo) - 3/3/2 or 3/2/3, whichever you prefer. Yes, sorry (corrected that typo as well) - dose ~40 min pre-training. If you train close to first thing, then you can just dose twice at 4/4 at first thing and pre-bed.

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

No, EIGHT caps (corrected my typo) - 3/3/2 or 3/2/3, whichever you prefer. Yes, sorry (corrected that typo as well) - dose ~40 min pre-training. If you train close to first thing, then you can just dose twice at 4/4 at first thing and pre-bed.

~Rosie~

oh okay I understood dont worry haha. Im definately going to that stack! thanks so so much Rosie! this sounds so good I cant wait!

 

[Rosie Chee]

oh okay I understood dont worry haha. Im definately going to that stack! thanks so so much Rosie! this sounds so good I cant wait!

Yeah, that's my apologies to you.

No worries - let us know how it goes for you

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

I definitely will! I'm going to order it tomorrow and probably in a week ill have it. But for the week waiting I'm just going to use protein shakes and glutamine.

 

[Rosie Chee]

I definitely will! I'm going to order it tomorrow and probably in a week ill have it. But for the week waiting I'm just going to use protein shakes and glutamine.

I'd drop the Glutamine and add in creatine and a multivitamin. Make sure you're getting your good fats in as well, either through supplementation, but preferably through your nutrition.

~Rosie~

 

[kkevin56]

So this is what my cycle is going to look like
IGF2-morning,before workout, before bed
Free test-Morning
Concrete Creatine- Before and after workout
AST multi-vitamin- Morning, Before bed
Fish Oil- Morning, Lunch, Dinner

 

[Rosie Chee]

So this is what my cycle is going to look like
IGF2-morning,before workout, before bed
Free test-Morning
Concrete Creatine- Before and after workout
AST multi-vitamin- Morning, Before bed
Fish Oil- Morning, Lunch, Dinner

Looks good. Only thing I would change is make sure you have all your multivitamin dose post-dinner (unless of course, if contains red meat - your meal). And make sure you dose your fish oil post-meals.

~Rosie~

 

[schwellington]

know what i do to get my test levels up? Pin 1.5ml's of testosterone 2 x a week


but there are natty ways- of course my test is in the thousands right now- which you can never do naturally


lift heavy- increases test/gh output

sunlight- yes sunlight helps in test production

fats- these also aid in test production

Dietary cholesterol- is one step away from converting to testosterone, dietary cholesterol doesnt bind, so it isnt harmful- eat the sh!t out of eggs,

rosie i think he was trying to say the oral IGF product is not the same as the peptide IGF-2

 

[kkevin56]

know what i do to get my test levels up? Pin 1.5ml's of testosterone 2 x a week


but there are natty ways- of course my test is in the thousands right now- which you can never do naturally


lift heavy- increases test/gh output

sunlight- yes sunlight helps in test production

fats- these also aid in test production

Dietary cholesterol- is one step away from converting to testosterone, dietary cholesterol doesnt bind, so it isnt harmful- eat the sh!t out of eggs,

rosie i think he was trying to say the oral IGF product is not the same as the peptide IGF-2

I wanted to Inject some test but I think I might stick to that stack for right now because it looks pretty solid and if it isnt what Im looking for I might take your advice.

 

[GLHF]

wat is this nonsence in this thread... OP is looking for a prohormone. first- WRONG SECTION KID. second- wtf is all this IGF-2, FREE test, HGHup, sounds like a bunch of supplements copying hormone names in hopes to sell product. sounds retarted to me.

OP, to answer ur question. start with something soft like hdrol for 4-6 weeks, if u want do epi....anything dry is nice, and theres so much good **** on the market today.. mdrol is really good too (best oral ive taken)

 

[kkevin56]

wat is this nonsence in this thread... OP is looking for a prohormone. first- WRONG SECTION KID. second- wtf is all this IGF-2, FREE test, HGHup, sounds like a bunch of supplements copying hormone names in hopes to sell product. sounds retarted to me.

OP, to answer ur question. start with something soft like hdrol for 4-6 weeks, if u want do epi....anything dry is nice, and theres so much good **** on the market today.. mdrol is really good too (best oral ive taken)

Sorry about that I'm new to this so I did not know where to put the question. I had tried Halotest-25 (hdrol) before and I didnt have that good of gains of mass on it but okay on strength. I didnt know any good epi clones because I dont any, and mdrol I heard is good but no1 is selling it anymore but I heard there is better clones out there. PM me with some other alternatives and products that you did and worked for you.

 

[GLHF]

Sorry about that I'm new to this so I did not know where to put the question. I had tried Halotest-25 (hdrol) before and I didnt have that good of gains of mass on it but okay on strength. I didnt know any good epi clones because I dont any, and mdrol I heard is good but no1 is selling it anymore but I heard there is better clones out there. PM me with some other alternatives and products that you did and worked for you.

fuk off.

u want me to tell u wat to run, how to do it, AND where to buy it? wtf is next...me running it for u???

 

[kkevin56]

actually no i just wanted to know which clone of them did you use, but ok my bad bro.

 

[schwellington]

fuk off.

u want me to tell u wat to run, how to do it, AND where to buy it? wtf is next...me running it for u???

no need for this kind of attitude dude- this guy just wants some help, grow up



OP, listen, HGHup IGF-2 etc the products rosie listed are good NATTY products, HOWEVER! they cannot and WILL NOT produce the type of effects actual hgh or real igf-2 would- free test- nothing like actual testosterone NOTHING


but the fact that you admitted to being new means you should stick to natty products while researching hormones further, and in a couple years then look into it


good luck

 

[kkevin56]

no need for this kind of attitude dude- this guy just wants some help, grow up



OP, listen, HGHup IGF-2 etc the products rosie listed are good NATTY products, HOWEVER! they cannot and WILL NOT produce the type of effects actual hgh or real igf-2 would- free test- nothing like actual testosterone NOTHING


but the fact that you admitted to being new means you should stick to natty products while researching hormones further, and in a couple years then look into it


good luck

Thanks man, I have been researching about this stuff for a couple years but I just wanted to try the IGF2 and free test first and if it doesn't work Im probably give hdrol another try or get something stronger.

 

[CrazyChemist]

OP, listen, HGHup IGF-2 etc the products rosie listed are good NATTY products, HOWEVER! they cannot and WILL NOT produce the type of effects actual hgh or real igf-2 would- free test- nothing like actual testosterone NOTHING

Natty stacks are great in between cycles too :biggthumpup:

Schwell, Ive run IGF-1 (actual vial of somatomedin C, IM 4x/wk), and loved it. I see I can order IGF-2 too - do you have more info on it? Maybe I should post a new thread. Peptides is where my knowledge is limited which is so ironic because ive got degrees in the sciences. I know their mode of action and chemical structure but not the theraputic dosage, injection protocol, etc.

 

[Rosie Chee]

Natty stacks are great in between cycles too :biggthumpup:

Schwell, Ive run IGF-1 (actual vial of somatomedin C, IM 4x/wk), and loved it. I see I can order IGF-2 too - do you have more info on it? Maybe I should post a new thread. Peptides is where my knowledge is limited which is so ironic because ive got degrees in the sciences. I know their mode of action and chemical structure but not the theraputic dosage, injection protocol, etc.

If you want to know more about IGF-2, then read the product technical write-up: Applied Nutriceuticals :: IGF-2 - it is NOT a peptide.

~Rosie~

 

[CrazyChemist]

If you want to know more about IGF-2, then read the product technical write-up: Applied Nutriceuticals :: IGF-2 - it is NOT a peptide.

~Rosie~

Lol - Rosie we seem to keep having the same exact miscommunication on this issue. You are talking about a natural booster of the IGF-2 peptide, sold by nutriceuticals and called IGF-2. I am talking about actual IGF-2. Similar to IGF-1 (somatomedin C), IGF-2 (somatomedin A) is available in a vial as a peptide. I was looking for information on this, not the natural supplement from nutriceuticals. Perhaps a new thread is warranted. I was just asking shwell because he brought it up here.

 

[Rosie Chee]

Lol - Rosie we seem to keep having the same exact miscommunication on this issue. You are talking about a natural booster of the IGF-2 peptide, sold by nutriceuticals and called IGF-2. I am talking about actual IGF-2. Similar to IGF-1 (somatomedin C), IGF-2 (somatomedin A) is available in a vial as a peptide. I was looking for information on this, not the natural supplement from nutriceuticals. Perhaps a new thread is warranted. I was just asking shwell because he brought it up here.

Oh, LOL - my bad. Guess I'll just shut-up, then :biggthumpup:

 

[DaBeast]

GLHF that's no reason to jump on somebody. Op beastdrol is a gd SD clone. But I would agree with all these guys and do some more research. And make sure you have your diet in check. That's the most important thing. You gotta eat to gain muscle.

 

[rulk22]

My suggestion is wait for the Androseries to be released. 100% dshea compliant means less headache legally.

 

[kkevin56]

GLHF that's no reason to jump on somebody. Op beastdrol is a gd SD clone. But I would agree with all these guys and do some more research. And make sure you have your diet in check. That's the most important thing. You gotta eat to gain muscle.

Maybe I should start a new thread but have any of you heard about Phreak by phantom labs. Thats some scary stuff, I heard a lot of people get great results thought if you do 1/1/2/2 dosing method.

 

[Hustlers]

To the OP,
I've been researching PH's/AAS since I was 18. I'm 26. I'm still not completely comfortable with my knowledge base. Things change, new products come out, studies make conclusions, BANs happen lol etc etc. Take your time and heed the advice of those in the know.

The concept of the gains from PHs and the likes of injects are exciting, and lure newbs in. It tends to make people look over the facts. You gotta walk before you run.

Get all the other factors in check and don't take it lightly. Hell, if you have the time get a good personal training cert or nutrition cert if you're serious. You'll find out how much you really didn't know. The info is out there you just need to want to see it. If your diet is sketchy, training is sketchy, then taking hormones is extremely sketchy for your health and well being. Why waste your money and the years you have ahead of you?

The natural products floating around, from what I've been reading, are great. So slow it down killer and earn what you want.

from a personal perspective, I really want to run Hdrol or Sdrol right now, physically I'm ready, but I think I'll try a natty test booster myself since I never have.

Crush the weights, shovel the food down your throat, and sleep like a bear in winter, you'll get what you want.
-Peace

 

[kkevin56]

To the OP,
I've been researching PH's/AAS since I was 18. I'm 26. I'm still not completely comfortable with my knowledge base. Things change, new products come out, studies make conclusions, BANs happen lol etc etc. Take your time and heed the advice of those in the know.

The concept of the gains from PHs and the likes of injects are exciting, and lure newbs in. It tends to make people look over the facts. You gotta walk before you run.

Get all the other factors in check and don't take it lightly. Hell, if you have the time get a good personal training cert or nutrition cert if you're serious. You'll find out how much you really didn't know. The info is out there you just need to want to see it. If your diet is sketchy, training is sketchy, then taking hormones is extremely sketchy for your health and well being. Why waste your money and the years you have ahead of you?

The natural products floating around, from what I've been reading, are great. So slow it down killer and earn what you want.

from a personal perspective, I really want to run Hdrol or Sdrol right now, physically I'm ready, but I think I'll try a natty test booster myself since I never have.

Crush the weights, shovel the food down your throat, and sleep like a bear in winter, you'll get what you want.
-Peace

Nicely said! I'm in the same boat I have been researching for a while I'm just not an expert on taking them I know most of the back rounds of compounds and everything I actually have a expert nutritionist who help me get a great diet for me. I'm in healthy shape and want to start either a hdrol or sdrol but then I dont know if I want to do that yet i might want to do the IGF-2 and free test like previously stated. I'm just on the fence right now.

 

[Hustlers]

Nicely said! I'm in the same boat I have been researching for a while I'm just not an expert on taking them I know most of the back rounds of compounds and everything I actually have a expert nutritionist who help me get a great diet for me. I'm in healthy shape and want to start either a hdrol or sdrol but then I dont know if I want to do that yet i might want to do the IGF-2 and free test like previously stated. I'm just on the fence right now.

Lol get off the fence and leave the ball in the yard, it'll still be there later

your 22 I would kill to have the pumps and strength gains and LBM I had at 22 with half the effort of what I do today.

Im eating 3100-3600 cals right now, lifting 2-3 times a day 6 days a week and weight gain and strength is still slower than it should be. (Im not over training) I'm doing a hybrid of the U of Miami's Summer camp strength and conditioning and Body building routine in the mornings. It feels great so far and my body is starting to function better. This week I start the conditioning part
along with the other 2 sections.

 

[kkevin56]

Lol get off the fence and leave the ball in the yard, it'll still be there later

your 22 I would kill to have the pumps and strength gains and LBM I had at 22 with half the effort of what I do today.

Im eating 3100-3600 cals right now, lifting 2-3 times a day 6 days a week and weight gain and strength is still slower than it should be. (Im not over training) I'm doing a hybrid of the U of Miami's Summer camp strength and conditioning and Body building routine in the mornings. It feels great so far and my body is starting to function better. This week I start the conditioning part
along with the other 2 sections.

haha thats good leave the ball in the yard haha, and your workout sounds intense, are you a bodybuilder? or are you just doing the routine?

 

[Hustlers]

haha thats good leave the ball in the yard haha, and your workout sounds intense, are you a bodybuilder? or are you just doing the routine?

That's a hard question to answer.
When I was younger I was a "bodybuilder" if anyone asked and they were my inspiration but i was just as much into the big three lifts for power so i trained them alot too.

I was injured badly in 06, and its been a long road since. Right now I'm just trying to see if i can get back to where i was or at least be 80% as functional. Right now titles are in limbo. What im really doing right now is rehabing some body parts, conditioing others, working on weak points, working towards power in some muscles but mainly
Switching it up and having fun so as not to lose interest. I love training but my injuries really stress me out sometimes. so its good to change it up. I just finished an 8 week bench focus and added somewhere from 30-50 on my bench. I don't know exactly because i refuse to do 1RM day. No less than 6 reps.
Now its time to get my back 'back' and rehab leg and back strength. Along with shoulder stability and mass.

I wanted to tell you there is a great diet plan and it'll run you $90-120 a week on M&F right now. Just go there and look at nutrition and pull up the 12 week plan. If you have trouble finding it PM me. Im starting it tonight. All the titals are great for me and the activity levels Im at. Im hoping this will help me hit 195-200 before I cycle anything. so 12 weeks from now 195+ or bust.
Check the diet out. If you can find the dedication to do it for the 12 weeks i can promise you will be satisfied. You dont even need o run any supps besides creatine protein bcaa's multi's and maybe something like a pre and post workout drink.

Do this diet before you try any of the natty's and see what your body is actually capable of. If you like it run the same diet again for another 12 weeks with the natty boosters and in 6 months you'll be sitting real pretty.
Later bro

 

[rulk22]

Nicely said! I'm in the same boat I have been researching for a while I'm just not an expert on taking them I know most of the back rounds of compounds and everything I actually have a expert nutritionist who help me get a great diet for me. I'm in healthy shape and want to start either a hdrol or sdrol but then I dont know if I want to do that yet i might want to do the IGF-2 and free test like previously stated. I'm just on the fence right now.

If I were you, id find a reputable company, one that you like the products and ask them how to best use their supplements. Do your research of course, but your bound to have questions so ask away. Any company worth their salt will be helpfull and honest. Good luck in your search.

 

[vidapreta]

fuk off.

u want me to tell u wat to run, how to do it, AND where to buy it? wtf is next...me running it for u???

actually no i just wanted to know which clone of them did you use, but ok my bad bro.

I don't think he likes you.:lmao:

 

[DaBeast]

Or maybe his estrogen has spiked so high.

 

[kkevin56]

Yeah I dont think he likes me ahah, and Im definitely going to do more research and find some products and probably start a log on my results or another thread with some questions. I really appreciate the help guys.

 

[CrazyChemist]

Oh, LOL - my bad. Guess I'll just shut-up, then :biggthumpup:

np :doh: