PH/DS and testosterone base

[DYEGYE]

I've been doing a lot of research on the web regarding using Prohormones and Designers, and have seen a lot of suggestions about having a testosterone base for every cycle. What I want to know is why this suggestion is being made. Also, what types of products would one use for this purpose? I have seen Dermacrine (transdermal) and AMS 4-AD suggested when I was looking. My last question is how this would work into cycles of popular PHs/DSs.

I'm just trying to understand the science behind all of this better, please excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject.

 

[gymrat827]

Most AAS cycles, (injectables) have a test base. When using PH's (halo, SD, Epi, etc) most guys dont run them. The oral PH cycles are normally limited to 6wks so a T base isnt as important as it is with a 8-14wk bout.

 

[DYEGYE]

Most AAS cycles, (injectables) have a test base. When using PH's (halo, SD, Epi, etc) most guys dont run them. The oral PH cycles are normally limited to 6wks so a T base isnt as important as it is with a 8-14wk bout.

That makes perfect sense. However, the things I was reading were suggesting it for PH cycles as well. Obviously if you're running test (whether it be cyp, enth, etc) you probably aren't going to use a PH for much other than a frontload (assuming access to test would mean access to other injectable AAS). However, it does make sense that with certain PH's it could be beneficial to add a product geared towards testosterone.

 

[Rosie Chee]

I've been doing a lot of research on the web regarding using Prohormones and Designers, and have seen a lot of suggestions about having a testosterone base for every cycle. What I want to know is why this suggestion is being made. Also, what types of products would one use for this purpose? I have seen Dermacrine (transdermal) and AMS 4-AD suggested when I was looking. My last question is how this would work into cycles of popular PHs/DSs.

I'm just trying to understand the science behind all of this better, please excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject.

Dermacrine can be added to almost any cycle as a Testosterone base to help enhance results from the cycle, yes, and it is probably the most popular product used for this purpose. In saying that, Dermacrine can also be used standalone for a cycle.

Just run it as directed.

~Rosie~

 

[CrazyChemist]

Dermacrine can be added to almost any cycle as a Testosterone base to help enhance results from the cycle, yes, and it is probably the most popular product used for this purpose. In saying that, Dermacrine can also be used standalone for a cycle.

Just run it as directed.

~Rosie~

Also, sometimes "non-testosterone" based anabolics - like deca-durabolin or trenbolone - can produce more side effects whne run without a test base. The metabolic pathway of these compounds is complex so its difficult to say exactly why you wouldn't want to run deca solo compared to winstrol solo from a ab initio ansatz but from user's experience they require test p or test e.

 

[mmowry]

Also, sometimes "non-testosterone" based anabolics - like deca-durabolin or trenbolone - can produce more side effects whne run without a test base. The metabolic pathway of these compounds is complex so its difficult to say exactly why you wouldn't want to run deca solo compared to winstrol solo from a ab initio ansatz but from user's experience they require test p or test e.

Thats the most widely accepted reason besides the fact that without test theres a good chance that when you want to get your freak of you'll only get freaked out. ED is a b****!! :dead:

 

[CrazyChemist]

Thats the most widely accepted reason besides the fact that without test theres a good chance that when you want to get your freak of you'll only get freaked out. ED is a b****!! :dead:

lol - sometimes i think about adding some deca into my test e cycle JUST to check the ridiculous libido - im pitching a tent 3-5 times ED :wtf::lmao: circlejerk --> :grouphug:

 

[EasyEJL]

lol - sometimes i think about adding some deca into my test e cycle JUST to check the ridiculous libido - im pitching a tent 3-5 times ED :wtf::lmao: circlejerk --> :grouphug:

I do that when i'm not on cycle

 

[CrazyChemist]

I do that when i'm not on cycle

:fingersx: and youre 43 - damn!!!!! i hope im still that "active" in ~15 years :fingersx:

 

[SouthernCharm]

lol - sometimes i think about adding some deca into my test e cycle JUST to check the ridiculous libido - im pitching a tent 3-5 times ED :wtf::lmao: circlejerk --> :grouphug:

haha when i started tren i got so worked up about losin my ability to get it up I got on some cialis... unless its broke dont fix it... i would have been happy with 3-5, try 6-8 hahaha

 

[DaBeast]

Whenever you run a test base with other ds its easier to solidy your gains. And correct me if I'm wrong using certain ds running a test base you might not get shut down so hard. But I may be wrong.

 

[EasyEJL]

:fingersx: and youre 43 - damn!!!!! i hope im still that "active" in ~15 years :fingersx:

I just have a hard time making it past an hour anymore

 

[heebs10]

Whenever you run a test base with other ds its easier to solidy your gains. And correct me if I'm wrong using certain ds running a test base you might not get shut down so hard. But I may be wrong.

your on the right track but in general, the more hormones your using, the more your going to suppress your endogenous test production. obviously, some ds and ph's suppress you more then others but you get the idea. as mentioned, one of the benefits of a test base is it helps to keep 'things' working making it seem as if you weren't experiencing test-suppression at all, and i think thats where you were coming from.

 

[DaBeast]

Yea u just explained it a lot better. I'm just trying to learn all I can before I start a cycle in the near future.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Using HCG is more important than using a test base, because it has some of the benefits of a test base, as well as maintains testicular function. Keep in mind PCT drugs like clomid target the pituitary and hypothalamus, not the testes directly. By keeping the testes running on cycle with the swale protocol of 250iu hcg 2-3x a week, the testes produce testosterone while maintaining LH receptor density.

A test base of some form is important because designer steroids have no 5a reduction to DHT, and no conversion via aromatase to estrogen (in addition to generally being less androgenic than test is). This has a variety of implications. In particular, lowered estrogen craters lipids because estrogen affects the enzyme systems in the liver relevant to cholesterol. Low estrogen also destroys libido/sexual performance, and estrogen is needed to lubricate joints. Additionally, cases of gyno caused by designer steroids are almost exclusively of the "rebound gyno" variety, caused by extremely low E levels on cycle leading to a huge excess in PCT. Simply by taking hcg, you eliminate or reduce most side effects (lipid values, testicular shutdown (makes PCT easier), joint pain, libido.)

Dermacrine only does half of this and costs more than 3 cycles worth of hcg, and is generally for suckers. Personally, I don't think buying test is necessarily worth the risk, the main advantage is that there is less liver toxicity, and so bros run it for 12 weeks. But, with a PCT of clomid and frontloaded ostarine, you're liable to maintain most of the gains anyway. Less area under the LDL curve with oral only cycles with hcg.

Cycle of the gods:

SD: 20/20/20/0/0/0
epi:0/0/10/40/40/40
hcg 250iu 2-3x week
+LCLT, liver support, and hawthorn berry (I like AI's cycle support as an all-in-one), taurine/magnesium/potassium for back pumps.

PCT: clomid 100/50/50/50/ + low dose nolva at any sign of gyno, I like to have some nolva in there as part of the plan for normalizing lipids since it is estrogenic at the liver whereas clomid is not.

NOW fenugreek 2-3 whole seed before bed, weekdays only. the 4-hydroxy leucine will lower blood glucose and lead to higher GH spike during sleep, and the fenusides mimic LH at the testes and brain (increase in libido and sexual pleasure)

Ostarine 50mg tapered to 25mg first week/12.5-15mg cruising thereafter.

Cialis is decent towards the end of PCT, if you have a girlfriend - the increased sexual frequency will increase T and really cement the PCT. I believe highly in the psychosomatic nature of T production, as many studies bear this out.

As you are a beginner, I'd recommend all of the above, with the exception of switching the anabolics from SD/Epi to Epistane only. 30/30/40/40/40 or so (requires 2 bottles). I can pretty much guarantee a perfect cycle and PCT on this combination of drugs, barring some highly personal genetic incompatibility with a listed component.

say hi to ST:F for me

 

[Rosie Chee]

...I'm just trying to learn all I can before I start a cycle in the near future.

Definitely the way to go :thumbsup: (you want to know EVERYthing you possibly can before running a cycle).

~Rosie~

 

[DaBeast]

Well thanx rosie. I definetly want to know what I'm putting in my body. And know how to combat all sides and return normal as soon as possible and be able to keep my gains from the cycle.

 

[Rosie Chee]

Well thanx rosie. I definetly want to know what I'm putting in my body. And know how to combat all sides and return normal as soon as possible and be able to keep my gains from the cycle.

No worries

Just keep researching and reading - you can never know enough.

As far as keeping gains, keep your training intensity and volume high during PCT, and make sure you are eating enough as well - on top of having a good PCT, of course!

~Rosie~

 

[schwellington]

dermacrine is dhea if im not mistaken- correct me if i am- which converts to target hormone such as testosterone, however, take note that when running harsher compounds like sd it may not work as well- it damn sure didnt for me


im on test and using pheraplex and trenadrol and i still have some minor lethargy- oh and do not add deca dude- im using it too, and it sux in bed, i gotta get my hands on caber asap

 

[DYEGYE]

say hi to ST:F for me

:dance:

 

[rulk22]

Ive heard of folks running Superdrone alone and not enjoying their run. When they took Dermacrine as a test base it alleviated a lot of the negative sides seen and made the run much more enjoyable.

 

[Xpballer]

PbN in the hizzy???!

 

[DYEGYE]

PbN in the hizzy???!

Yup

 

[Rosie Chee]

Ive heard of folks running Superdrone alone and not enjoying their run. When they took Dermacrine as a test base it alleviated a lot of the negative sides seen and made the run much more enjoyable.

:biggthumpup:

 

[neverstop]

Using HCG is more important than using a test base, because it has some of the benefits of a test base, as well as maintains testicular function. Keep in mind PCT drugs like clomid target the pituitary and hypothalamus, not the testes directly. By keeping the testes running on cycle with the swale protocol of 250iu hcg 2-3x a week, the testes produce testosterone while maintaining LH receptor density.

A test base of some form is important because designer steroids have no 5a reduction to DHT, and no conversion via aromatase to estrogen (in addition to generally being less androgenic than test is). This has a variety of implications. In particular, lowered estrogen craters lipids because estrogen affects the enzyme systems in the liver relevant to cholesterol. Low estrogen also destroys libido/sexual performance, and estrogen is needed to lubricate joints. Additionally, cases of gyno caused by designer steroids are almost exclusively of the "rebound gyno" variety, caused by extremely low E levels on cycle leading to a huge excess in PCT. Simply by taking hcg, you eliminate or reduce most side effects (lipid values, testicular shutdown (makes PCT easier), joint pain, libido.)

Dermacrine only does half of this and costs more than 3 cycles worth of hcg, and is generally for suckers. Personally, I don't think buying test is necessarily worth the risk, the main advantage is that there is less liver toxicity, and so bros run it for 12 weeks. But, with a PCT of clomid and frontloaded ostarine, you're liable to maintain most of the gains anyway. Less area under the LDL curve with oral only cycles with hcg.

Cycle of the gods:

SD: 20/20/20/0/0/0
epi:0/0/10/40/40/40
hcg 250iu 2-3x week
+LCLT, liver support, and hawthorn berry (I like AI's cycle support as an all-in-one), taurine/magnesium/potassium for back pumps.

PCT: clomid 100/50/50/50/ + low dose nolva at any sign of gyno, I like to have some nolva in there as part of the plan for normalizing lipids since it is estrogenic at the liver whereas clomid is not.

NOW fenugreek 2-3 whole seed before bed, weekdays only. the 4-hydroxy leucine will lower blood glucose and lead to higher GH spike during sleep, and the fenusides mimic LH at the testes and brain (increase in libido and sexual pleasure)

Ostarine 50mg tapered to 25mg first week/12.5-15mg cruising thereafter.

Cialis is decent towards the end of PCT, if you have a girlfriend - the increased sexual frequency will increase T and really cement the PCT. I believe highly in the psychosomatic nature of T production, as many studies bear this out.

As you are a beginner, I'd recommend all of the above, with the exception of switching the anabolics from SD/Epi to Epistane only. 30/30/40/40/40 or so (requires 2 bottles). I can pretty much guarantee a perfect cycle and PCT on this combination of drugs, barring some highly personal genetic incompatibility with a listed component.

say hi to ST:F for me

it gets no better than this post. Awesome.

 

[kvothe]

I dont know about hcg being used in place of test as a base, I guess it would be better than nothing, but man, test is hard to beat. HCG does have its place, but if I had to pick between the two, test hands down.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

That's true, but Test should be used IN ADDITION to hcg - you can normalize estrogen levels just fine with hcg only.

and DHEA is much worse than either.

 

[kvothe]

yes, dhea and test, no real comparison, dont know about normalizing estrogen with test or hcg, in fact I think higher levels of test can lead to higher levels of estrogen, but I dont know the science behind things. the one thing I do know is that when I run a test base with a cycle it is test, and when anyone else has done the same it has been test. HCG has been used on cycle, to aid in recovery, but never by itself, by anyone I know, but to each their own

 

[BigBlackGuy]

That's true, but Test should be used IN ADDITION to hcg - you can normalize estrogen levels just fine with hcg only.

and DHEA is much worse than either.

HCG is definitely important. If the person can get their hands on it AND if they don't mind injecting subcutaneously (why would they?) they should be golden. Why use a test base for a 4-6 weeks cycle when you can simply keep your natty test levels up AND keep the boys ready to spring back from some suppression during PCT.

Most people won't recommend HCG because it's injectable and "illegal" to use without a script.

If you're dead set on a test-base, use dermacrine. It can be found at Nutraplanet, I believe.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Illegal but unscheduled*, HCG is exactly as easy to get as SERMs - legality shouldn't be an issue for anyone using SERMs already.

Except in FL I think. If you can't get hcg, then dermacrine is the best dhea option.

 

[jason1000]

So if you are using Hcg do you still have to use test?

 

[Rosie Chee]

So if you are using Hcg do you still have to use test?

You can, yes.

~Rosie~

 

[gymrat827]

So if you are using Hcg do you still have to use test?

No. No need. Esp on a short cycle.

The Tes base will help with making better gains, prevent shutdown, etc. But you dont need it on a 4-6wk with hCG

 

[Rosie Chee]

No. No need. Esp on a short cycle.

It's not necessary though - not sure if I made that clear.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

No. No need. Esp on a short cycle.

The Tes base will help with making better gains, prevent shutdown, etc. But you dont need it on a 4-6wk with hCG

A Test base doesn't prevent shutdown, but I know what you mean, you mean you'll be more alpha in the gym, which is true. Test is sort of like a Vanilla steroid, and the lack of liver toxicity is really nice, that's why you can run longer with it.

I will say this, though - I gain to fast on 20mg of superdrol and a bulking diet to begin with - literally busting out of my skin with stretch marks. I wouldn't want to gain faster.