Help a lady out? 19Nor? M40HN? MDien?

nikegurl

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I started reading up on prohormones for women months ago. Seemed at the time everyone said the 19Nor was the best option for a woman due to fewest sides. I never decided if I was going to use it or not. I was leaning toward the transdermal 19Nor but new products have come out since then.

With the ban coming soon...I figured I should buy now before it's too late.

I'm looking for increase in lean muscle with low risk of sides. (how unoriginal of me). I'd like to drop bodyfat but I'm pretty sure the diet alone will handle that.

I have a few questions

1) I'm about to cut. Should I hold off on using anything until AFTER the cut or use while cutting to preserve the muscle I have? Not sure which is wisest. I'd love to cut and gain muscle at the same time...but I've always been told it's better to focus on one over the other

2) How to decide between 19Nor, M4OHN and MDien? Would I want to stack products or just go with one?

3) Suggestions on length of cycle and doseage for each? I've heard longer cycles at lower doseages for women AND I've heard shorter cycles at higher so it's hard to know what's right.
 

MarcusG

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I can't remember the name of the board, but the women's forum over there have many experienced women who can give good advice.

19-nor is not methylated(can't compare with the others). m4ohn is a nandrolone derivative which is milder on paper and the new and limited feedback suggested the same. If you believe BK's initial testing results, there was 1 woman which used 0.5-0.25mg m-dien(?) daily and had good results which means its damn potent enough to grow balls if you go overboard on dosages.
 

nikegurl

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thanks Marcus. when you say the 19nor can't compare with the others....do you mean b/c it's such a different compound chemically or b/c i'd see less increase in lean muscle with it?
 
Manu20

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I think hes talking about the fact that its not methylated like the other 2.
 

nikegurl

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ok....since they are very different, how would i go about making a wise choice between 19nor and m4ohn?
 

MarcusG

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Methylated orals have new risks/side effects to consider. Cannot compare with 19-nor. Its like asking someone to compare oral steroids with injectable testosterone.

And you might want to do some reading on the stickies/faqs/articles on phs. They will give you a much much better background on these things - seriously.
 
jminis

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m4oht I would think would be a good option for a woman.
 

nikegurl

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i've read the stickies etc. (honestly) it's just very hard to find much info on women using the ones i mentioned.

sounds like the 19nor would yield less in terms of results but also less risk or sides?

i guess i was hoping for an idea of which would yield most muscle gain - which would be best while cutting - which has highest risk of androgenic sides etc.

and as i mentioned... everywhere i find doseage info i find wildly different suggestions (for women) so that part gets confusing. one "expert" says low dose for longer time. another says shorter cycles at a higher dose.

the start low theory sounds best - but how do you know if you should increase? do you up it until you see sides and then drop down to where you were before you observed a problem?
 
DR.D

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i've read the stickies etc. (honestly) it's just very hard to find much info on women using the ones i mentioned.

sounds like the 19nor would yield less in terms of results but also less risk or sides?

i guess i was hoping for an idea of which would yield most muscle gain - which would be best while cutting - which has highest risk of androgenic sides etc.

and as i mentioned... everywhere i find doseage info i find wildly different suggestions (for women) so that part gets confusing. one "expert" says low dose for longer time. another says shorter cycles at a higher dose.

the start low theory sounds best - but how do you know if you should increase? do you up it until you see sides and then drop down to where you were before you observed a problem?
Do you have any other info about youself? For example, are you on BC? For women w/ too much estogen, I'd suggest the the m4ohn. If you are looking to balance androgenic sides, go w/ the 19dione. You can use the 19diol, but at the right dose, it can be andogenic. Def go w/ low doses over a longer time. The high dose short period of time way can disrupt a woman's cycle, but could be done w/ very short times (NMT 2wk) if diet help is needed.
 

nikegurl

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yes - i'm on bc (yasmine). lower doses sounds logical.

since i'm on bc would you think the m40hn is better than transdermal 19nor? what length cycle and doseage would you suggest?

when people say to start low and increase...how do they know if they should increase and when to stop upping the dose?

any opinion as to which would result in more muscle gain and which has a higher risk of androgenic sides?

i THINK i'm leaning toward the m40hn (just when i thought i had decided on the 19nor)

i know women don't need pct for test levels - but what (if anything) should be taken to protect my liver during/after use?
 
DR.D

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NG, sorry for the slow response. With the Yas, I would guess this is a very clean P/E combo even though I don't know anyone else using it, you should be fine w/ anything you choose. The m4ohn would be ultaclean, but your lipids will suffer. I'm assuming you were on BC before for awhile w/ an older, higher estrogen combo. That means your pituitary feedback is suppressed, so PCT is exactly not what you want unless you want to try and get preg. later. As for liver help, you don't need it for low doses. Even over a long time your liver will be fine at low doses, over 10mg of a methyl and I would take a little MTE. If your lipids suffer, switch to the 19nor. You can build up, you'll know when the dose is too high. The first signs of androgeny might first be apparent in your "mood" or your skin complextion.
 

nikegurl

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thanks so much. i understand what you've said here....but i'm still debating between the two. my cholesterol is really low but not sure how the ratios look.

would either be more likely to cause water weight gain then the other?
would either really help while on a cut or better to cut first and then pick one?

i think i'm leaning toward the mo4hn but still unsure
 
DR.D

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thanks so much. i understand what you've said here....but i'm still debating between the two. my cholesterol is really low but not sure how the ratios look.

would either be more likely to cause water weight gain then the other?
would either really help while on a cut or better to cut first and then pick one?

i think i'm leaning toward the mo4hn but still unsure
Go w/ the m4ohn. The 19nor is more about high protein intake and anabolism. While cutting, you want anti-catabolism most of all, due to caloric rest. I don't gain water on nor compounds, but my lipids get very bad. Are you a runner?
 

nikegurl

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i'm definitely not a runner. :) i competed once in bodybuilding years ago but i definitely looked like a fitness/figure competitor. i'm tall (5' 9") so i tend to look kind of stringy when i'm very lean. (i need more muscle)

at the moment my bodyfat is way too high for comfort. i'm all the way up to 20%.

i'm thinking i should buy now b/c of the ban coming. what i'm still not sure of is whether i should diet to drop my bodyfat and save the ph cycle for after the cut or if i should use it while cutting.

will either the 19nor or the m4ohn help harden me? i want to be much leaner and i have lagging bodyparts i'm trying to add size to (legs and shoulders)

do you still think the m4ohn is the better match for me and my goals?
think i should wait 'til i reduce my bodyfat before using?
finally - what doseage and length of use do you suggest?

i know pct isn't neede for a woman. but do i need anything to protect my liver?

thank you so much for you help
 

nikegurl

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uh oh....more options. i've been asking around and 2 more phs were brought to my attention. M4OHT and 1,4 Andro. Here's the info that was passed on to me. Any thoughts? (I haven't looked into these at all)
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M4OHT:

You should consider getting some M4OHT, which is very mild. It is available, for a limited time I presume, from DesignerSupps.com, as a powder, which makes it much much cheaper than tablets ($40/1000mg vs [guess] $35/350mg if it were in tabs. The same place was selling M4OHN powder, earlier today, but they sold out very quickly. 19-nor is nowhere near as cost effective as the above, which would require very low dosing for you. Anyhow, go to the prohormones discussion at AnabolicMinds.com, since there is a thread or two on this topic right now, here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1,4 Andro

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]You might want to look at 1,4 andro at 1-f-a-s-t-4-0-0 (without the spaces)

From Ergopharms site.


Norandrodiol® (19-nor-4-androstenediol) offers the highest nortestosterone conversion of all the norandros, without the downside associated with norandrostenedione.*
We use specially processed Norandrodiol, resulting in an ultra-fine powder for maximum oral absorption and bioavailability. Compare against all other plain milled nor-andro products on the market.


Studies show that 300mg servings provide substantially increased benefits over 100mg servings.
Oral delivery provides maximum nortestosterone response in about 90 minutes, with benefits lasting many hours (See graph below).
For men, 300mg (2 capsules) taken three times a day will maximize your benefits. Women should only take 150mg (1 capsule) twice a day.



Men and women looking for increased lean muscle growth, fat loss, strength increases and other anabolic benefits, with minimal androgenic characteristics (aggressiveness, mood, libido, etc.).
Men looking for the best norandro oral capsule product on the market.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Norandrodiol® is the most potent and effective "nor-andro" testosterone precursor on the market today. Norandrodiol is recognized as the "nor-andro leader" because:
Norandrodiol offers the greatest nontestosterone conversion, estimated at over a 300% greater conversion than norandrostenedione.
Norandrodiol cannot directly aromatize to estrogen (a problem with norandrostenedione).
Norandrodiol doesn't convert to DHT or its derivatives. DHT is linked to undesirable effects such as male pattern baldness or prostatic hypertrophy (a problem with norandrostenedione).

[/font]
 

nikegurl

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is it possible to tell me key differences in what i'd likely notice if i were to use 19nor vs if i were to use m4ohn?
 
jminis

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m4oht I would think would be a good option for a woman.

Didn't you read my above post? Do some research on this compound I think it would be better for you then m4ohn. Read Pogues review of this substance.
 

MarcusG

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Apart from m-1-t none of the new orals match the gains of the tried and true 1-t/4-ad transdermal and work better in a stack with transdermals. Just can't compare. I presume you've done your research and know methyalted orals come with its own issues.

Why don't you just try 19nor? Its not going to be worse than m4ohn in androgenic sides. And being a woman, you have the advantage of using much lower dosages to get an effect. Possibly oral 19nor/4ad/1,4ad/etc might work well enough without being too expensive instead of messy transdermal. I'd check out Avants website which has a womens forum with members who actually used transdermals etc before for first hand advise on dosage/sides. I'd definitely look for other boards with an active female forum for advise if I were you.
 

Lich

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Try Feminiemmuscle.com i believe it is, although I hope many of us could help u, u truly will get the best tried and true answers from other experienced women.


BTW: M4 is also still very new, we have an 80% less of a true idea what it will do for/to you compared to 19 nor. But plz dont just ask one board, thats my advice, ask multiple, and ull get ur best info from other women ;)

GL
 

Cogar

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I do not recommend using PH or PS for the first time on a cutting cycle. These substances do put your body under extra stress and a bulking cycle is a little safer IMO since you are then providing enough nutrients to make sure your body is being properly rebuilt. You can get fancy later and use PH or PS on a cutting cycle.

I believe it is a toss-up between M4OHN and M4OHT if you insist on running your first cycle as a cut. As MarcusG implied, it may make more sense to run a 1-Test/4-AD transdermal as a first cycle (low dose) if you want to do it while bulking. As a side comment to muddy the waters (sorry), I recall someone reporting that their wife used 1/5 the M4OHN dose he did and they were both getting good results.

Regarding protecting the liver, taking milk thistle and NAC (use the dosage recommended on the bottles) will help your liver recover, but they do not prevent stress on the liver or any damage that may occur. That is another reason to keep the doses low.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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does anyone know why women do not pct?
 

Strateg0s

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Not much point in bringing testosterone production up much is there?
 
DR.D

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Not much point in bringing testosterone production up much is there?
Nope. Especially one on birth control, because that's how it works. She is already shut down and needs to stay that way unless she is wanted to get preg. Clomid can cause multiple births in chicks doing PCT.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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so their test levels are so low not much suppression goes on? would it be different for someone not on birth control?
 

Sldge

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The problem with 19nor is you need to take a much higher dose because of loss through conversion. In women you want to use the smallest dose possible for an effect, they are very senstive to compounds like these and 1 test/4ad is too strong IMO.

I wouldnt use M4OHT just becuase of the possible anti e effects, I still think that either a small dose of Methyl-Dien (1-2mgs per day) or M4OHN(4mgs per day) will work best.

Becuase of your height, you would want to preserve any muscle you have while dieting, otherwise youll get "flabby" real quick. As you drop cals, while being on birth control muscle loss would be in high gear, Like Dr.D said you really want to prevent catabolism.
 

nikegurl

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thanks everyone. if i go with the m4ohn does 4mg/day sound like an appropriate starting point? would 4 weeks be reasonable? (assuming i don't observe any sides that cause me to bail sooner)
 

size

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thanks everyone. if i go with the m4ohn does 4mg/day sound like an appropriate starting point? would 4 weeks be reasonable? (assuming i don't observe any sides that cause me to bail sooner)

i would go with 4mg for 6 weeks as long as you are not experiencing any negative side effects.
 

nikegurl

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great. i usually buy from 1fast (bulk nutrition)

looks like they are out of the m4ohn. any suggestions WHICH specific product to buy and where to buy it online?

anything else i should or should not take along with the m4ohn or after? (i know not to drink and i don't mean things like a multi - anything specific to m4ohn i might not know about)

i really appreciate the great info.
 

rsray1975

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great. i usually buy from 1fast (bulk nutrition)

looks like they are out of the m4ohn. any suggestions WHICH specific product to buy and where to buy it online?

anything else i should or should not take along with the m4ohn or after? (i know not to drink and i don't mean things like a multi - anything specific to m4ohn i might not know about)

i really appreciate the great info.
You can buy the m4ohn directly from designersupps. Best place to buy it from.
www.DesignerSupps.com
He said he will have the tabs ready by the end of the week.
 
jmh80

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That would be Sledge.

I know there is a women's board over at www.anabolicreview.com. I've seen quite a few ladies ask about steriod cycles. They (AR) don't seem to delve into PH's as much, but it's worth a shot to ask some of the women over there.

Good luck.
 

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