M1T/Tren bulk critiques please :D
- 09-27-2010, 09:55 PM
M1T/Tren bulk critiques please :D
So guys the plan goes like this:
wk 1: M1T @ 15mg ED
Clen @ 40/60/80/100/120/120/120
wk 2: M1T @ 15mg ED
Clen @ 120/120/120/120/120/60/40
wk 3-4: M1T @ 10mg ED
Tren @ 90mg ED
wk 5: Tren @ 90mg ED
Clen @ 40/60/80/100/120/120/120
wk 6: Tren @ 120mg ED
Clen @ 120/120/120/120/120/60/40
I want to use the clen to try and minimize the bloat on the M1T, and keep my gains as lean as possible. The Vitex and P5P are both going to be used to keep possible prolactin related gyno from occuring.
2 wks prior and wks 1-4 Milk thistle
wk 1-6: CEL cycle support
NOW Red Yeast Rice with CoQ10 @ 600mg ED
wk 2-4: vitex @ 400mg ED
wk 2-6: p5p @ 300mg ED
I also have nolva and clomid on hand just in case.
Plan on bumping up my calories about 500 or so at the start of this cycle as welll.
PCT is still up in the air for now, not planning on running this for another month or so, but any thoughts for a possible PCT are more than welcome. Any feedback would be great, I want to make this as fun and productive as possible. cheers!
- 09-27-2010, 10:12 PM
get ready to get shut down completely with this.
everything looks good except the clen IMO.
if you want to control bloat just get an AI, or if your really serious about getting rid of it then get letro
just sayin.Eat Clean. Train Dirty.
- 09-27-2010, 10:17 PM
The thought of M1T and Clen stacked gives me a stroke just thinking about it. But if that doesn't git'r dun the Tren at 120mg and Clen ought to.The fool says in his heart “There is no God."
I vehemently support your right to take offense to anything I post.
09-27-2010, 10:19 PM
Thanks for the feedback, I should have been more clear on why I was using the clen. I want to use it so I can shred a good amount of bf while on this cycle. I am prepared for the shutdown but I am hoping that it will be a temporary sacrifice for a great turnout. Thanks again for the quick response hard iron.
09-27-2010, 10:21 PM
haha thank you Dunn for the sarcasm! should I up the dose on my RYR with coQ10 to try and combat this?
09-28-2010, 12:10 AM
Wow sounds extremely hard on your body. I would not personal run all that. Remember to not really consider tren a mild compound it is just as harsh most methyls.
I would possible run the two steroids stacked but wouldn't do it with clen.
Either way log it for us bro!!
09-28-2010, 12:26 AM
Thank you for the input Zama, I have run tren before at 90mg for 6 weeks a couple of times before and had no bad sides. My libido even stayed perfectly fine! I am second guessing the clen however. Should I just run the clen 2 weeks prior to this cycle, and then finish off the last 2 weeks of the cycle with it? so I would only be running the clen with the Tren rather than with the M1T and Tren at the same time. any thoughts on this guys?
09-28-2010, 12:28 AM
09-28-2010, 01:13 AM
09-28-2010, 03:42 AM
09-28-2010, 08:05 AM
09-28-2010, 11:59 AM
This is just plan dumb cycle. Reason why M1T is for bulking... Not cutting down. It's a all out mass and strength anabolic with a host of nasty sides. Then u want to through in the "tren" PH after 4 wks and still cont with Clen. If you dont stroke out or have massive headaches have fun.
Cutting is more about diet not slamming your body with a bunch if anabolics. The anabolics are used to help preserve muscle in a cal deficient state.
Why not try hdrol and Clen? Or maybe epi and Clen for 6 wks. That makes way more sense.
09-28-2010, 01:49 PM
Thank you for the advice Liftingstud. I know a bit about the M1T and I am not so concerned with the strength gain as I am gaining as much lean muscle as possible while keeping the water/fat gain off. I know that the M1T is great for gaining overall mass including muscle as well as water etc, and its great ability for strength gain. I want to keep this cycle as lean as it can be.
What do you think about the new plan of running clen 2 weeks prior to this cycle and then just keep my diet and cardio in check while on the M1T. I would really like to throw in the clen again with maybe the last 2 weeks on "tren" alone, or the last week of tren and the first week of pct. what are your thoughts?
09-28-2010, 01:50 PM
Oh and thank you Dunn for your help. Clen + M1T... don't know what I was thinking. I guess this weekends trip to vegas for the Olympia distorted my thinking!!!
09-28-2010, 02:20 PM
Honestly I would ditch the m1t til ur ready to bulk. IMO it's worthless when trying to lean out. You will retain water when using it. But after you come off and the water sheds you prob will be leaner. Just seems odd to trying to run clen before or during.
Like I said run "tren" 90-12mg for 6 wks with hdrol 75-100mg or epi 40-50mg. With a good clean diet you should pack on some serious lean muscle and shed some fat. Esp if coupled with some HIT cardio. But can't stress it enough... It's all diet.
I just would cation tren and clen unless u r really watching your bp. I remember running tren and def noticed bp issues even running support supps. Could only imagine what clen would add to it.
09-28-2010, 02:34 PM
09-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Okay thank you for the advice. Right now I am about 14% bf currently cutting. I wanted to run this cycle in about a month so hopefully I can put a good dent into the bf before hitting the M1T. I think I am going to take your advice and save the clen for later, maybe pct? So in light of this advice, I guess I am going to try and gain insane on the M1T with some mild cardio weeks 1-4 and just increase the cardio the last two weeks on tren.
09-28-2010, 02:37 PM
09-28-2010, 08:09 PM
09-28-2010, 09:59 PM
I see what you are saying, but I dont necessarily think you have to run a bulk with the mentality of "gain as much strength and weight as possible". If my goal is to gain a lot but keep the water weight to a minimum, wouldn't that still be consider a bulk? I am basically stacking something I know has been proven to yield a large amount of lean muscle gain accompanied with significant water (what I do not want) with something known to combat this water weight. I have ran epi and tren before, neither of which yielded as significant results in the lean muscle department as M1T is supposed to.
I understand M1T is good for an all out gainer, but so is SD right? people have chosen to use SD on cutting cycles as well, actually I think Unreal said something about that in his SD thread a while back.
I do not think that just because M1T is normally thought of as an extreme mass builder, that that means I must be willing to run it with that mentality and take the bloat that comes with it. Just looking at it from a different perspective I think Liftingstud. I want the large lean muscle gains of M1T and I want the least amount of bloat possible, thats why I have chosen the clen to throw in there. Clen is significantly anabolic to my understanding and a lot less likely to target muscle tissue to breakdown than opposed to say t3, (I may be wrong here) so if I were to run clen in the pct, which I have also seen people on this forum do with good results, wouldn't it still want to burn fat/ get rid of the water that I had gained on the cycle rather than the real "gains" in muscle?
I dont know I guess thats what I have been thinking in my head ^_^ let me know where I am wrong because I probably am somewhere.. always learning.
09-28-2010, 10:10 PM
also I think this little thing is really messing with me:
this past weekend I attended the Mr. O. and at the expo I met flex lewis, talked to him for a bit etc. he told me he was in the process of bulking (looked pretty damn big for a 202er) since he just won a show pretty recently and that was why he was not competing in the 202 this year. I noticed when I shook his hand and took a picture with him that his hand was extremely shaky, which I am assuming is a side effect of running something like clen. and if he was "bulking" im sure he was on some kind of potent mass gainer at the same time which is why I had the idea for this cycle =/
09-28-2010, 10:16 PM
09-28-2010, 10:39 PM
Trying to put out the bloat and other sides with clen particularly on M1T...is going to be like trying to put out a forest fire with a super soaker IMO.
Eat Clean. Train Dirty.
09-28-2010, 10:48 PM
thank you again dunn for that insight but I think I meant "fat gain" not bloat? In william llewellyn's book he says that "it is believed that the body does not appreciably aromatize methyl-1-testosterone. It is of note, however, that this steroid likely has inherent prgestational activity. The side effects associated with progesterone are similar to those of estrogen including negative feedback inhibition of testosterone production and enahnced rate of fat storage". I know that "tren" also has progestational side effects as well just not as bad in the fat gain area due to its thermogenic effect, but the possibility is still there. I guess when I said bloat, I meant "fat gain", my bad. and in this case, wouldn't clen be effective in helping me reduce the bf gained on this cycle?
maybe I am confused somewhere..
09-28-2010, 10:55 PM
So, you concur with the progestin.
If it indeed does promote the propensity to store fat it would be fat from a caloric surplus. If you are in a caloric surplus and use clen all the clen will be doing is increasing your metabolic rate and burning up those calories if anything. Why not eat in a controlled incremental surplus and not get fat as opposed to risking your health by using the clen with a notoriously heart health risky substance.
For the most part people have discouraged you to use it. You asked and that is what you are getting. if you want to use then just use it
The fool says in his heart “There is no God."
I vehemently support your right to take offense to anything I post.
09-28-2010, 11:00 PM
Thank you Dunn, I have realized the increasing trend from the members here to recommend against this idea haha, I am not going to go against the majority but I did want to make sure that I had all bases covered here, plus I learned a good amount along the way. Would it still be as bad of an idea to run the clen in post cycle though like Liftingstud had mentioned earlier? I would like to hear your opinion on running the clen in pct too Dun, if possible.
09-28-2010, 11:11 PM
you should do a m1t/anadrol log instead, since you're going all out, or m1t/methyltrienolone, now that'll get you some rep points!
09-28-2010, 11:35 PM
Bloat is not always estrogen. Often they van have effects on aldosterone and you can retain more Na. By retaining more so it will naturally pull water with it. Hence a nonestrogen related bloat. I think dmt my have this effect. Because lots of people will report bloating (dosent aromatize) and other get lean and hard on it. Just my thoughts not sure if that's why it occurs.
It's just taking these 3 combo is asking for def BP issues. Could lead to dangerously high levels.
Screw it dude get some prop and tren ace. That will really do it!
So u ran epi and tren and you didn't fine it gave u lean mass while stripping some fat? That's def odd. Cause I am sure those two with a Keto type diet and proper cardio would get u shredded. Esp if u added clen to the mix. And the potential for problems is way less.
But it's your call bro.
09-28-2010, 11:43 PM
yeah thanks for the advice Liftingstud I am pretty content at not running the clen so close to the M1T or tren for that matter. I am not sure if I was unclear about my previous runs with epi and tren or not, but I did notice lean gains like you had said. I just know that the lean gains I received from these two would not be as much as the possible lean muscle gain from running the M1T and tren.
All in all I am definitely grateful for all of the advice everyone here has given me on this cycle, which is why I love reading up on AM. It looks like Im going to just run the M1T and tren at the dosages listed originally matched with good diet and cardio and tossin out the clen. possibly throw in some androhard to increase DHT while on cycle as well.
Now, thoughts on PCT? lol.
09-28-2010, 11:59 PM
getting your natty test levels back is going to be like getting Grandpa's old Truck to start thats been sitting in the backyard for years. lol
....and whatever else, creatine, cortisol blocker, etc,etc
Eat Clean. Train Dirty.
09-29-2010, 12:04 AM
09-29-2010, 05:52 PM
androhard isn't going to help any on this cycle.
m1t and pro dienoloen are both highly androgenic compounds that bind strongly to the androgen receptor. wont even be any room for it.
if you are worried about the progestin binding ability of these compounds, only thing i'd say you could stack with it would be pro stanozol, or stanozol itself. (winstrol has been shown to bind to the progestin receptor and cause no reaction with it, acting like a serm, and blocking it)
estrogen is produced through the body via other mean besides just aromatization of testosterone. this is just one. so being that a compound doesn't aromatize, just mean, less estrogen than a compound that does.
using an ai like formestane, or 6-bromo may help.
if you are worried about estrogenic side effects, best not to run a cycle like this, or switch out one of the compounds for something else.
09-29-2010, 06:43 PM
09-29-2010, 08:16 PM
jbryan thanks for the insight but on the primordial performance website it states "As a 19-nor this compound has decent progestational effects which may lead to gyno symptoms, libido loss, and aggressive mood swings. Part of the reason gyno may be a problem with this compound is also because it lacks androgenic potency and down-regulates DHT levels during cycle." So according to PP, tren is not very androgenic at all. Also Llewellyn's book states that M1T has an androgenic # of 100-200 coupled with an anabolic # of 910-1,600 and its estrogenic activity is none, while it's progestational activity is labeled as moderate.
I was under the impression androhard increases DHT levels? I could be wrong here..
Also from the readings I have done on both of these compounds, most of what I have read says that it is unlikely for estrogenic side effects to be experienced while on either of these compounds. The side effects of progestational activity including libido loss, fat gain, and negative feedback of testosterone production, are all possible side effects of estrogenic activity as well.
I will also be taking the vitex and p5p at higher doses as indicated in my original post, to try and limit prolactin. I also found this on PP's site as well:
"Trenbolone, TREN, Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required"
So again, I do believe that taking androhard while on this cycle will be very helpful.
09-29-2010, 08:19 PM
Chocolatemilk, I think if Jasen read my original post he would be all for it! ... which is probably why I shouldn't run it!!!
09-29-2010, 11:37 PM
I must of missed that on the pro dienolone profile when I was doing the editing for them when they created those. Allow me to point out a few errors in the idea.
first, progestin, and prolactin are not related. all anabolic steroids have some interaction with the progestin receptor. this interaction could lead to increase in estrogenic side effects.
"Although methyl-l-testosterone is primarily anabolic in nature, strong androgenic side effects are possible with higher doses, and should be carefully considered. Note that the 5-alpha reductase enzyme does not metabolize methyl-l-testosterone, so its relative androgenicity is not affected by finasteride or dutasteride."
I should note on 10mg of methyl 1 test, I noticed the symptoms of an enlarged prostate, having to frequently urinate, with very little urine comming out. this is a side effect of highly androgenic steroids, and when I stopped using the m1t, the frequent urge to go pee, and light urination stopped.
methyl 1 testosterone is 5a reduced steroid. if you want to go by the numbers, the androgenic ratio for methyl 1 test is 100-200 times more androgenic than methyl testosterone.
trenbolone is a much more powerful steroid than dienolone, but the two are very similar, with dienolone being considered a weaker version of trenbolone.
trenbolone is considered to be one of the strongest ar binding steroids, and though is not capable of interaction with 5a reductase, is more closer to drostanolone (dht steroid) than nandrolone (19nor steroid) in androgenic potency.
you can use androhard. it is a two step pro hormone to dht. wich is also a steroid that is very rapidly deactivated in the muscle by the 3hsd enzyme.
I recomeneded pro stanozol because it is an active thp ether version of winstrol, which is also a dht derived steroid, and has been shown in human studies to have serm like properties on the progestin receptors.
as well from this data based knowledge, my personal experience from running pro dienolone with and without pstanz, were dramatically different.
Good luck with w/e you decide to do.
09-30-2010, 12:20 AM
They have also talked about adding winni to a deca cycle for the exact reason mentioned above.
I still dont understand why u are set in this cycle. There are obvious better choices that have less chance of problems. I still don't get why you would use m1t for anything other than an all out bulk. Why put your body through it if u are not using the compound to it's full potential. Just my 2 cents.
09-30-2010, 01:00 AM
I guess I wasn't considering my dose so high jbryan. I did read that part though, so I am assuming from what you are saying that while on the M1T I should run the pro stanozol due to it's high androgenic activity at mentioned doses, but would it be acceptable and sufficient enough to run androhard while on tren alone in weeks 5 and 6?
Also, I don't want you to think I am trying to battle with you guys here or be hard headed, I am sorry if I am frustrating you guys ^_^ I just have heard/read many things on these compounds and I want to make sure that everything is covered, I'm just being thorough!!!
Also you said that you did the editing for this writeup but you "missed that", did you mean that that shouldn't be in there or that you had just forgotten that tren was not very androgenic? if it shouldn't be in there then they should take it out soon so it doesn't confuse more noobs like me!!
and Liftingstud, the cycle has become just M1T and tren, no clen. like I mentioned above, I am more than willing to switch things up, I am not planning on running this for another month which is why I am asking these questions and getting clarifications now. I will be using the M1T for "bulking" purposes, while trying to solidify the gains with the tren and maybe cut up a bit.
Again sorry if I am getting you guys frustrated, but thank you for all of these posts they have definitely helped!
09-30-2010, 01:02 AM
09-30-2010, 07:52 PM
when I said I must of missed it, I was meaning it should be stated that dienolone is a very powerful androgen that binds strongly to the androgenic receptor.
not as powerful as it's big brother trenbolone, but strongly.
I think what it may be implying is that adding in a dht compound will help decrease estrgoenic related side effects.
because of the shape of androgens, they are able to bind to the progestin receptor. a stronger binding androgen will most likely have more progestin receptor activity,and this could cause an increase in estrogenic side effects.
I'm hoping bill will have a write up for pro dienolone in his book, since he added in methyl dienolone for 09's.
when I ran pro dienolone the first time, it was awsome, but the gyno symptoms for me started within the first week.
later, I added in pro stanozol at 300mg e/d for 4 weeks with the dienolone, and didn't experience any gyno symptoms at all.
I got the idea to run pstanz with dienolone after reading a study done on humans showing stanozol (winstrol) to be able to bind to progestin receptors, without causing any interaction, and act like a serm, blocking progestin from binding to its receptor & cause an increase in estrogenic side effects.
this would be how this steroid would prevent/decrease estrogen side effects.
So far, this is the only steroid I know of that will do this.
thats just my take on it.
I plan on running m1t/4ad in the future as an all out bulker, If I could tolerate m1t/pro dienolone gyno sides, I would def run it. good luck when you do.
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