Advice Needed on Hdrol cycle...gyno???? Crazy I know.... - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 2

Advice Needed on Hdrol cycle...gyno???? Crazy I know....

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    Xerxes i would keep dosing it at 20mg for a few more days dude. Remember your nips will still look funny or puffy and because in your mind you know it was there previously your going to constanly compare. Puffy nipples is a expected side effect of running a DS. But as you said your tenderness is gone and is it still sore? If it is bad it should really be uncomfortable and painful. It it isnt, then you know your Nolva is doing its job! If the lump or disc under the nipple is completley gone, then dont stress any more, drop it down to 10mg until your comfortable with it gone, then stop the Nolva, and finish your cycle.

    As Unreal as said and i have said, Gyno is extremley complicated and you can sit there for months and months trying to figure where it came from or why, but you have the symptons so just combat it with Nolva Novedex XT i took in the past so who knows it could cause a onset of gyno but it is impossible to tell. Gyno is not always estrogen!

    Good luck dude!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsbhaver View Post
    Clomid during cycle is a area i am not sure about. Clomid is definitley a reccommended PCT for Tren due to its different ant-estrogen properties that Nolva so you have picked the right one there!

    Did it just flare up OR have you had this issue previously?

    If it was there previously, i would have no idea on why you chose to do Tren?!
    This is a recent flare up...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enantato View Post
    This is a recent flare up...
    Can you source Nolva or an A.I? What is your cycle? If its getting really bad, I would just go straight to PCT and dose Clomid accordingly.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by bashman View Post
    Can you source Nolva or an A.I? What is your cycle? If its getting really bad, I would just go straight to PCT and dose Clomid accordingly.
    Are there any OTC A.I.'s? I bought Novedex xt when I had my first little panic attack about it but now I've read some pretty negative reviews about it. If I need a "real" A.I. it would probably take me a couple weeks to get.
    My cycle is 20 mg SD, 50 mg tren (the culprit).
    If taking the clomid on cycle is not recommended and the novedex xt doesn't work, then I'll probably have to stop cycle and start my PCT now right?
    I can, however, get my hands on an A-cup for the time being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enantato View Post
    Are there any OTC A.I.'s? I bought Novedex xt when I had my first little panic attack about it but now I've read some pretty negative reviews about it. If I need a "real" A.I. it would probably take me a couple weeks to get.
    My cycle is 20 mg SD, 50 mg tren (the culprit).
    If taking the clomid on cycle is not recommended and the novedex xt doesn't work, then I'll probably have to stop cycle and start my PCT now right?
    I can, however, get my hands on an A-cup for the time being.
    Are your nipples leaking fluid or do you have a lump coming on? It might be prolactin build up, in which case Clomid won't help.
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    No milk yet, just a lump
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    nolva shouldn't hurt your gains. people used to use nolva everyday on their test cycles
    Mostly answered PM's
    Don't post on my profile, I don't read that stuff, PM me instead
    <------ Hard to believe, but I wasn't on any anabolics in the avatar shot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enantato View Post
    No milk yet, just a lump
    I would dose 50 Clomid for the next couple days, but I'm no expert, and I don't know the exact similarities/differences between Nolva and Clomid.

    Not to be rude or sound like a d**k, but you should just start your own thread. Least this way you will get more direct answers from more experienced members.
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    Gynoish Update: Decide not to use the P.P. Dermacrine, not enough solid info. to back up the few claims I've seen. However I did purchase some for future use:-)Simple Nolva is working fine. In about 4 days I've seen a complete reversal, I am still dosing 20mg and I plan to do this until Saturday, assuming the progress keeps on rolling, then lower it down to 10mg and I'm off of the Nolva until PCT. My right nipple is no longer irritated/inflamed at all, no soreness (never experienced any), no pain, the center pebble seems to have completely dissipated, I still have a small "disc" growth on the right side of the right nipple (lol), but its decreased in mass every day that I've run the Nolva. I've noticed that the disc is worse in the morning time, more swollen that is, any reason behind this? Right now I can barely feel it. And yes I have stopped fondling my nipples, geez....LMAO

    I figured I keep updating my progress so that maybe someone searching the form archives (like I've down for a while) can be helped out by it in the future....Maybe I am too idealistic thinking that people will actually use the search button?

    Bashman: He did start a thread, wasn't detailed and didn't get any responses last time I checked.

    Enantato: Add more detail to your threads so the more experienced users can help you out. The more detail, the easier it will be for people to help you out.

    Unreal: I did know that users dose the Nolva and an AI with test; I wasn't sure how it effected Ph's specifically. Since taking dosing the Nolva I do feel more bloated, I am obviously retaining more water, but I like it. It makes me look more buff, who gives a s*** if it's only temporary? I sure as hell don't.
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    Great news! Very happy that your seeing great results

    Enantato:

    Being on Tren, it makes it complicated to know what to do during cycle that will work. Below is info from a site ages ago, BUT it is only someones opinion, not facts

    Nolvadex vs. Clomid for PCT

    It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.

    While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

    But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

    Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

    This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

    So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

    Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

    Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

    Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

    NOW all this i found on this webisite silownia.net/steroids/clomid
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    A OTC AI will NOT be good enough to eliminate gyno or anything for that matter. I dont even think OTC AI like novedex even decrease estrogen. Go with something proven and scientifically backed
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    ok so for now I'll throw in some clomid and see how that works? at least until i'm able to source some novla... thanks for all the feedback, as Xerxes said I tried to start a new thread but no one responded. This thread had a similar subject so I tried it as well. Anyways thanks again, and if anyone has reason why i shouldn't throw in the clomid please let me know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enantato View Post
    ok so for now I'll throw in some clomid and see how that works? at least until i'm able to source some novla... thanks for all the feedback, as Xerxes said I tried to start a new thread but no one responded. This thread had a similar subject so I tried it as well. Anyways thanks again, and if anyone has reason why i shouldn't throw in the clomid please let me know.
    Okay bro, if things don't get any better in the next few days, I would suggest dropping the tren if you still want to carry on with the cycle, or to be real safe, go straight to PCT. Once that gyno reaches later stages and the breast tissue forms, there will be a good chance it will stay there.

    Xerxes: Cool man, appreciate you keeping us posted as your right, this information will help others.
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    Day 5 Update: Disc is still present on right side of nipple. No real change, perhaps slightly smaller then yesterday? Still no sensitivity, pain, etc. Starting to question if I had this disc prior to start of cycle? Didn't think to check. Really should have.

    Has anyone here experienced gyno, but had no pain associated with it? I just think it's bizarre that I have yet to have any type of pain. Perhaps because I caught it early enough? Or Perhaps because this isn't gyno/ or gyno onset symptoms...?

    I plan to continue my dosing of 20mg until tomorrow, then taper it down to 10mg for the next week.
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    dude i bet you always had it.. it doesn't sound like gyno. it would be painful, trust me.
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    gyno using HDrol alone and this is'nt the only thread reporting gyno .... Now I am really scared to start my First Ph cycle with HDrol .. is it same with P-mag too
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xerxes View Post
    Day 5 Update: Disc is still present on right side of nipple. No real change, perhaps slightly smaller then yesterday? Still no sensitivity, pain, etc. Starting to question if I had this disc prior to start of cycle? Didn't think to check. Really should have.

    Has anyone here experienced gyno, but had no pain associated with it? I just think it's bizarre that I have yet to have any type of pain. Perhaps because I caught it early enough? Or Perhaps because this isn't gyno/ or gyno onset symptoms...?

    I plan to continue my dosing of 20mg until tomorrow, then taper it down to 10mg for the next week.
    I've been reading a few other logs, and came across H-Drol log on bodybuilding.com forums. The guys history is almost identical to yours and he ran tren before H-Drol and experienced gyno on H-Drol cycle.

    He had "disc" like tissue (not visually noticeable) he felt behind his nips that he went onto saying was probably already there before cycle.

    I think unless you thoroughly checked before, the tissue might have already been there, but obviously everyone becomes a lot more cautious/conscientious after they start a cycle.

    I know its easier said than done to not worry about it, but there is still a good possibility it will disappear in the next few days if not during PCT.

    Besides, how are your gains coming along? Put on much mass?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bashman View Post
    I've been reading a few other logs, and came across H-Drol log on bodybuilding.com forums. The guys history is almost identical to yours and he ran tren before H-Drol and experienced gyno on H-Drol cycle.

    He had "disc" like tissue (not visually noticeable) he felt behind his nips that he went onto saying was probably already there before cycle.

    I think unless you thoroughly checked before, the tissue might have already been there, but obviously everyone becomes a lot more cautious/conscientious after they start a cycle.

    I know its easier said than done to not worry about it, but there is still a good possibility it will disappear in the next few days if not during PCT.

    Besides, how are your gains coming along? Put on much mass?
    That's what I am assuming, its been getting better as the days go on. The only thing that could be remotely considered "gyno" is the small disc, which is not even the size of a split pea. The lack of pain and irritation that others seem to experience with gyno or the onset of gyno makes me believe that I've overreacted. I should have checked my chest out pre cycle, and know to do this next time, you learn from experience. Everyone I've talked to has said the same thing, gyno typically hurts and is usually "noticeable" to some degree (even in the initial stages), mine has been any of these things. Someone even suggested that it might just be an inflamed gland, which is different then gyno and can occur during any type of cycle. Nevertheless I am keeping an eye on it, and continuing my Nolva dosing.

    So far my gains have been good. The cycle is just starting to really kick into high gear, I feel tight and my muscles are in a state of being "pumped" all the time. I have been eating a little over 500 calories maintenance, mostly clean, but some not so clean. I haven't put on any noticeable fat, my pant size is still 28. I am gaining more noticeable size and definition on my shoulders and back. My triceps were kinda of stuck at a plateau, I couldn't seem to get them to grow for anything, and there are increasing slightly in size. All in all so far I've probably put on about 2-3 lbs of LBM, which makes me very happy. I've done this in a very short period of time, and with no noticeable fat gain! I still have a few weeks and plan to keep my training and diet consistent. I have been training like a dog, usually about 5-6 days a weeks, of lifting, with a 1-2 days of slow paced cardio thrown in for general health and to promote fat loss.

    I'll update the thread with the details of my cycle as well, if anyone's interested. Gyno thread turns into pseudo-hdrol log lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie09 View Post
    gyno using HDrol alone and this is'nt the only thread reporting gyno .... Now I am really scared to start my First Ph cycle with HDrol .. is it same with P-mag too
    Anything hormonal, regardless of aromatization or lack of, can cause gyno or gyno symptoms. Some PH's are less prone to give one gyno but its all about predisposition and genetics. The saying that everyone reacts differently is very literal in the world of PH's and AAS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xerxes View Post
    Day 5 Update: Disc is still present on right side of nipple. No real change, perhaps slightly smaller then yesterday? Still no sensitivity, pain, etc. Starting to question if I had this disc prior to start of cycle? Didn't think to check. Really should have.

    Has anyone here experienced gyno, but had no pain associated with it? I just think it's bizarre that I have yet to have any type of pain. Perhaps because I caught it early enough? Or Perhaps because this isn't gyno/ or gyno onset symptoms...?

    I plan to continue my dosing of 20mg until tomorrow, then taper it down to 10mg for the next week.
    It might have formed when you were young (puberty) or from your tren cycle. I experienced alot of discomfort and pain from my nipple man....even woke me up a few times when sleeping! they should be very sore, sensitive and your nip should look inflammed and out of place in comparision to your other nipple.

    Yes, you are correct dude. IMO (I may be wrong) there is a small difference between actual gyno and gyno symptoms. Because you got gyno during or ON cycle then i would assume it would be "symptoms".

    What you told us is just symptoms of gyno and yeah it is a good thing that you caught it straight away while it flared up because the earlier the better.

    The small disc should disapear, just be patient how is it looking anyways compared to when you first seen it or felt it? i guarantee it is MUCH better its just that your mind has attached to the knowing of it being there previously so your always going to doubt your judgement in seeing improvement. The mind is a funny thing lol

    Keep it at 20 for a few more days, then drop it to 10mg when you feel comfortable in the reduction in size and man if your feeling no pain that cld be a clear indication that is just a flare up!

    Good to hear it is pretty much gone!

    The only other side effect i have had in my last week is hair thinning out! I am not even suspectible to MPB but hey i suppose that comes with any DS lol
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    Thanks for the advice and help DSBHAVER. Compared to the other nip there is no difference, I can feel the disc under the skin if I press on it and feel around, but visually there is no difference; no swelling, no puffiness, or anything, they look exactly the same. I have never deliberately felt my nips before and I think that I had the swelled gland there previously. I am nonetheless continuing with the Nolva. The disc hasn't gotten any bigger, its decreased in size daily, but only slightly lately. The disc doesn't feel really really inflamed or whatever anymore, it kind of feels like an ultra tiny swollen gland or something, the disc feels "puffy" I guess, but doesn't look it.

    Because there was no visual cues when I first realized that it was present, there is no change in the way its looks, it looks normal. The only real difference is that there is no "hard fibrous tissue" behind the center of my nipple and the disc (on the right) is way smaller and not as hard/dense? I really believe that I had the inflamed gland/disc there before (from puberty, or when I was heavy set (lost 80 lbs several years ago when I started lifting), or from my last cycle and the PH just aggravated it. I am confident of that. I have a friend who just entered his residency, I've known him for a long time and hes a great guy who has messed around with "hormonals" before I am going to see him next week when I get off the road and have him take a look, his input will probably help out a lot!
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    Yeah, man, i would not stress at all then. I mean i FREAKED out, i have to admit but after speaking to alot of people/mates and discussing it on here with other experienced body builders you get more knowledged and have a better understanding of it

    Oh and you probably already seen this but this post is very, very good IMO

    Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
    by:
    William Llewellyn

    Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course

    Now, on to the article:

    Introduction

    I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

    Clomid and Nolvadex

    I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

    Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

    Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

    But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

    The Estrogen Clomid

    The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

    Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

    Conclusion

    To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

    Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

    In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

    References:

    1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

    2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

    3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bashman View Post
    I would dose 50 Clomid for the next couple days, but I'm no expert, and I don't know the exact similarities/differences between Nolva and Clomid.

    Not to be rude or sound like a d**k, but you should just start your own thread. Least this way you will get more direct answers from more experienced members.
    Is 50 mg Clomid the correct dose? It seems 20 mg nolva is the dose for gyno related symptoms, but in the latest article that dsbhaver posted it was comparing the effects of 150mg Clomid vs 20mg Nolva... I know that was research done for their affects on the HPTA, but would the same theory apply when trying to combat gyno on-cycle?
    Good reads, thanks guys.
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    bump
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsbhaver View Post
    Yeah, man, i would not stress at all then. I mean i FREAKED out, i have to admit but after speaking to alot of people/mates and discussing it on here with other experienced body builders you get more knowledged and have a better understanding of it

    Oh and you probably already seen this but this post is very, very good IMO

    Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
    by:
    William Llewellyn

    Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course

    Now, on to the article:

    Introduction

    I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

    Clomid and Nolvadex

    I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

    Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

    Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

    But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

    The Estrogen Clomid

    The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

    Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

    Conclusion

    To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

    Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

    In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

    References:

    1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

    2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

    3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

    Thanks for the post. I actually have read it before, but I am sure there's lots of people who haven't. Hopefully if someone finds themselves in the same boat that you and I were in, and they are frantically searching for answers via the AM search feature of archived posts, if they stumble on these posts they will get some answers.

    Tried to rep you but I have to spread it around some more lol!

    Update: The last remaining gyno disc is completely gone! Woke up today and had no inflammation at all! I am still running the gyno at 20mg. I was going to taper the dose down to 10mg on Saturday, but decided to continue running the 20mg for the next several days. Apparently it worked, because I have no more gyno/gyno onset symptoms whatsoever! I am thrilled needless to say and kicking even more ass in the gym! I am going to taper down the Nolva after Tuesday to 10mg and run it for the rest of the week then quit it completely!

    The Hdrol is definitely in full swing! My muscles are denser and tight. I can lift and recovery in less then a day which is awesome! I am experiencing some slight testicular atrophy, but that's to be expected, I experienced the some sides last cycle towards my late 3rd-4th week as well. I am up 1/2 lb from yesterday, putting my total gain at about 3.5 lbs (give or take!).

    Enantato: TRY STARTING ANOTHER THREAD...A lot of the more experienced guys aren't reading this because the main question in the thread has been answered.......I would assume anyway. BE DETAILED AND SPECIFIC IN YOUR NEW THREAD.....
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    great thread....im bumping.
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