Advice Needed on Hdrol cycle...gyno???? Crazy I know....
- 08-04-2010, 03:39 AM
Thats all good to hear. I'd say keep dosing the Nolva at 10mg for the next 4 days or possibly until the "disc" in your pec has subsided. It should not interfere your gains. Keep us posted throughout the cycle. If you still have puffy nips by the end of the H-Drol, I would maybe suggest bumping the 1st couple of days of PCT to 40 Nolva, so 40 for 3-4 days then 20 thereafter and taper down throughout week.
Its kinda of strange how recently 2 people have got Gyno from H-Drol run. Dodgy batch going around??? But then given the location of yourself and dsbhaver, that kind of rules possibility out.
- 08-04-2010, 03:42 AM
08-04-2010, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the PCT advice, pretty much what I was shooting to do anyway. Its weird @ Day 3 (today) I have no tenderness at all, but disc is still there, but slightly smaller and less inflamed? I keep getting a mixed bag about Nolva's effect on my gains, some say it will severely hinder them and others say it will be negligible. I guess time will tell
These Hdrol gyno threads have been popping up for the past few years, albeit sporadically, especially when compared to the other PH compounds that can produce gyno. I actually purchased my Hdrol from overseas, family is from UK and I got a super discount because I know the fella peddling the stuff. I am sure there no correlation though, just out of curiosity whats your batch number DSBHAVER? Mine are 53039 and 53392. I believe I've read a few threads where people have ran 53039 and had no issues...not sure about 53392. I am not knocking CEL, they make a great line of products, I use there Cycle Assist even when I am not on cycle and there Hdrol is the only one that I would touch.
08-04-2010, 01:33 PM
I've been thinking about adding some Primordial Performance Dermacrine to the cycle. I've heard from several sources, as well as someone from DSBHAVER's similar gyno thread I believe, that it could help to balance out the hormonal imbalance that is perhaps causing my gyno onset, what do you guys think about this? Plus Primordial Performance stuff is on blowout sale @ NP, so I better snatch some up quick!
Anyone have experience? Or any hearsay/speculation about this?
08-04-2010, 05:34 PM
I duno about the Dermacrine, sounds a bit off to try and cure a problem by adding another substance to the mix. Suppose its debatable, bit like people who run epistane to try and cure existing gyno.
I would just keep dosing the Nolva at 10mg ED for the next few days till your sides disappear. I suppose then if you really wanted to you could add the Dermacrine, sounds like you know more than me on this subject.
08-04-2010, 06:10 PM
No worries about the Nolva. I am going to keep on dosing that, that's a given my friend. Since I posted earlier in the afternoon my disc is already feeling smaller and less noticeable, this is great. I am going to have to do some more research on the Dermacrine and see what I come up with.
I was going through some of my previous notes (I keep personal logs of work out routines, diet macros, supplements, etc. ) and I realized that at the beginning of the year I ran some old formula bottles of Gaspari's Novodex XT and 2 weeks after I finished both bottles of Novodex I wrote down the following: "noticed slight nipple itch, burning sensation on right nipple", but I never really put much thought in to it. I wonder if this could have any effect on my current situation? I've read about ATD compounds, especially Novodex causing a gyno-rebound effect, anyone have reputable information on this concept?
Sorry bout all the questions, its driving me nuts trying to figure out what triggered the gyno onset. I need to figure out what supplements to avoid...
08-04-2010, 06:26 PM
What would you say about adding Clomid to break down my new-found-tit instead of nolva? I have clomid, don't have nolva, but am looking for a reputable source if anyone has one. I am on a SD/tren cycle currently, btw.
08-04-2010, 07:02 PM
How do i find my batch number? I highly doubt that is a bad batch of hormones that just cause people gyno. Everyone is different, and just because hdrol doesnt convert to estrogen OR has no one complaining about gyno doesnt mean it wont happen to you. Some people have lots of estrogen build up, or lack of, lack of test, too much test, so much imbalance before you take something sythentic in your boyd ofcourse your body may react negatively.
08-04-2010, 07:06 PM
I agree with bashman. Dermacrine is another hormonal thing your going to add to your body? I dont really agree with battling a side effect from a DS with another DS or PH or whatever it is....each to their own though, i have seen alot of people love espitane for reducing their gyno
08-04-2010, 07:09 PM
Did it just flare up OR have you had this issue previously?
If it was there previously, i would have no idea on why you chose to do Tren?!
08-04-2010, 07:18 PM
Xerxes i would keep dosing it at 20mg for a few more days dude. Remember your nips will still look funny or puffy and because in your mind you know it was there previously your going to constanly compare. Puffy nipples is a expected side effect of running a DS. But as you said your tenderness is gone and is it still sore? If it is bad it should really be uncomfortable and painful. It it isnt, then you know your Nolva is doing its job! If the lump or disc under the nipple is completley gone, then dont stress any more, drop it down to 10mg until your comfortable with it gone, then stop the Nolva, and finish your cycle.
As Unreal as said and i have said, Gyno is extremley complicated and you can sit there for months and months trying to figure where it came from or why, but you have the symptons so just combat it with Nolva Novedex XT i took in the past so who knows it could cause a onset of gyno but it is impossible to tell. Gyno is not always estrogen!
Good luck dude!
08-05-2010, 12:18 AM
08-05-2010, 03:11 AM
08-05-2010, 04:24 AM
My cycle is 20 mg SD, 50 mg tren (the culprit).
If taking the clomid on cycle is not recommended and the novedex xt doesn't work, then I'll probably have to stop cycle and start my PCT now right?
I can, however, get my hands on an A-cup for the time being.
08-05-2010, 05:59 AM
08-05-2010, 02:50 PM
08-05-2010, 03:09 PM
nolva shouldn't hurt your gains. people used to use nolva everyday on their test cycles
Mostly answered PM's
Don't post on my profile, I don't read that stuff, PM me instead
<------ Hard to believe, but I wasn't on any anabolics in the avatar shot
08-05-2010, 03:21 PM
Not to be rude or sound like a d**k, but you should just start your own thread. Least this way you will get more direct answers from more experienced members.
08-05-2010, 06:17 PM
Gynoish Update: Decide not to use the P.P. Dermacrine, not enough solid info. to back up the few claims I've seen. However I did purchase some for future use:-)Simple Nolva is working fine. In about 4 days I've seen a complete reversal, I am still dosing 20mg and I plan to do this until Saturday, assuming the progress keeps on rolling, then lower it down to 10mg and I'm off of the Nolva until PCT. My right nipple is no longer irritated/inflamed at all, no soreness (never experienced any), no pain, the center pebble seems to have completely dissipated, I still have a small "disc" growth on the right side of the right nipple (lol), but its decreased in mass every day that I've run the Nolva. I've noticed that the disc is worse in the morning time, more swollen that is, any reason behind this? Right now I can barely feel it. And yes I have stopped fondling my nipples, geez....LMAO
I figured I keep updating my progress so that maybe someone searching the form archives (like I've down for a while) can be helped out by it in the future....Maybe I am too idealistic thinking that people will actually use the search button?
Bashman: He did start a thread, wasn't detailed and didn't get any responses last time I checked.
Enantato: Add more detail to your threads so the more experienced users can help you out. The more detail, the easier it will be for people to help you out.
Unreal: I did know that users dose the Nolva and an AI with test; I wasn't sure how it effected Ph's specifically. Since taking dosing the Nolva I do feel more bloated, I am obviously retaining more water, but I like it. It makes me look more buff, who gives a s*** if it's only temporary? I sure as hell don't.
08-05-2010, 06:30 PM
Great news! Very happy that your seeing great results
Being on Tren, it makes it complicated to know what to do during cycle that will work. Below is info from a site ages ago, BUT it is only someones opinion, not facts
Nolvadex vs. Clomid for PCT
It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.
But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.
Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.
This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.
So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.
Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.
Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.
Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.
NOW all this i found on this webisite silownia.net/steroids/clomid
08-05-2010, 06:33 PM
A OTC AI will NOT be good enough to eliminate gyno or anything for that matter. I dont even think OTC AI like novedex even decrease estrogen. Go with something proven and scientifically backed
08-05-2010, 07:18 PM
ok so for now I'll throw in some clomid and see how that works? at least until i'm able to source some novla... thanks for all the feedback, as Xerxes said I tried to start a new thread but no one responded. This thread had a similar subject so I tried it as well. Anyways thanks again, and if anyone has reason why i shouldn't throw in the clomid please let me know.
08-06-2010, 07:58 AM
Xerxes: Cool man, appreciate you keeping us posted as your right, this information will help others.
08-06-2010, 09:41 PM
Day 5 Update: Disc is still present on right side of nipple. No real change, perhaps slightly smaller then yesterday? Still no sensitivity, pain, etc. Starting to question if I had this disc prior to start of cycle? Didn't think to check. Really should have.
Has anyone here experienced gyno, but had no pain associated with it? I just think it's bizarre that I have yet to have any type of pain. Perhaps because I caught it early enough? Or Perhaps because this isn't gyno/ or gyno onset symptoms...?
I plan to continue my dosing of 20mg until tomorrow, then taper it down to 10mg for the next week.
08-06-2010, 09:54 PM
08-06-2010, 10:11 PM
gyno using HDrol alone and this is'nt the only thread reporting gyno .... Now I am really scared to start my First Ph cycle with HDrol .. is it same with P-mag too
08-07-2010, 10:40 AM
He had "disc" like tissue (not visually noticeable) he felt behind his nips that he went onto saying was probably already there before cycle.
I think unless you thoroughly checked before, the tissue might have already been there, but obviously everyone becomes a lot more cautious/conscientious after they start a cycle.
I know its easier said than done to not worry about it, but there is still a good possibility it will disappear in the next few days if not during PCT.
Besides, how are your gains coming along? Put on much mass?
08-07-2010, 12:43 PM
So far my gains have been good. The cycle is just starting to really kick into high gear, I feel tight and my muscles are in a state of being "pumped" all the time. I have been eating a little over 500 calories maintenance, mostly clean, but some not so clean. I haven't put on any noticeable fat, my pant size is still 28. I am gaining more noticeable size and definition on my shoulders and back. My triceps were kinda of stuck at a plateau, I couldn't seem to get them to grow for anything, and there are increasing slightly in size. All in all so far I've probably put on about 2-3 lbs of LBM, which makes me very happy. I've done this in a very short period of time, and with no noticeable fat gain! I still have a few weeks and plan to keep my training and diet consistent. I have been training like a dog, usually about 5-6 days a weeks, of lifting, with a 1-2 days of slow paced cardio thrown in for general health and to promote fat loss.
I'll update the thread with the details of my cycle as well, if anyone's interested. Gyno thread turns into pseudo-hdrol log lol.
08-07-2010, 12:47 PM
08-08-2010, 02:28 AM
Yes, you are correct dude. IMO (I may be wrong) there is a small difference between actual gyno and gyno symptoms. Because you got gyno during or ON cycle then i would assume it would be "symptoms".
What you told us is just symptoms of gyno and yeah it is a good thing that you caught it straight away while it flared up because the earlier the better.
The small disc should disapear, just be patient how is it looking anyways compared to when you first seen it or felt it? i guarantee it is MUCH better its just that your mind has attached to the knowing of it being there previously so your always going to doubt your judgement in seeing improvement. The mind is a funny thing lol
Keep it at 20 for a few more days, then drop it to 10mg when you feel comfortable in the reduction in size and man if your feeling no pain that cld be a clear indication that is just a flare up!
Good to hear it is pretty much gone!
The only other side effect i have had in my last week is hair thinning out! I am not even suspectible to MPB but hey i suppose that comes with any DS lol
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