My dilemma and why I am looking for alternatives

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    My dilemma and why I am looking for alternatives


    Hey, a lot of you guys know me as a Natural guy. I may stay that way the decision to escalate will be a lengthy one. I have been doing some research and starting to develop some alternatives...

    First lets talk about why... Natural shows are getting to be a joke. It was nice to believe that we could all play on a equal field but we all know that's bullshyte. I'd say half the the competitors in these shows are using and that the organizations don't really care. They pretend to but there is no way they can afford to police the situation and even if they could afford it, it would still be a monutmental task. It also seems that less and less people are competing in these shows.

    So what's the alternative, untested shows... there is no way I am getting on stage with these monsters using just herbs!! These seem to be much bigger shows and better run though.

    The other reason for my thinking is that I am getting old and most of my natural potential has been reached. I would like to go a little further. Now I'm don't want to get huge, a little bigger, much leaner and harder.. tighter.

    I am not a total virgin, I have done 2 cycles of 1-test/4ad transdermal about 8 years ago and a couple of Halodrol around 5 year ago.

    I am currently about 215-218 12% or so.. I have some good size already and as you guys know, in most respects really have my shyte together...

    I have considered things like Epistane but many say that I'd be better off just using test e... as a matter of fact for my age and goals equi-test was recommended...

    Anywho I have done a lot of my own homework (nobody has to hold my fuggin hand) and this is what I've come up with so far. This is going to be about discussion and analysis, I am a long way from a decsion.

    EquiTest 250 Test E and 200 EQ = 450/ml
    Arimidex 1 grams pills
    dbol 20 mg pills
    Nolva

    So I am thinking 500 Test E + 400 EQ = 2ml Equitest per week 1-15
    20 mg dbol for weeks 1-4
    Arimidex .5 2 times a week
    Nolva 40-40-20-20

    It's all up for discussion the cycle, whether to just use things like Epistane and Turinbol, whether to even break from being Natural.

    I trust you guys for good feedback, AM is my home.
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    I would go with the Test, EQ and dbol cycle. You could hit up some HCG to help with recovering from the cycle. I would use some clomid in pct as well as the nolva.

    If you have access to these things I wouldn't bother with epi or tbol. You could use these otc orals to complement the test you may be taking.

    As far as staying natty, that is 100% up to you. Personally, if I were your age I would get on hrt and just blast and cruise
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    Clomid and nolva- clomid helps more so with the hpta shutdown and nolva works more for estro sides

    Yes they are both SERMS but act in different yet similar ways strangly

    Im on day 14 of my pct at 50 mgs clomid and everything with the boys is goin good
    Test e/dbol/epi/winnie
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/164764-schwellington-has-been.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim1985 View Post
    I would go with the Test, EQ and dbol cycle. You could hit up some HCG to help with recovering from the cycle. I would use some clomid in pct as well as the nolva.

    If you have access to these things I wouldn't bother with epi or tbol. You could use these otc orals to complement the test you may be taking.

    As far as staying natty, that is 100% up to you. Personally, if I were your age I would get on hrt and just blast and cruise
    blast and cruise ? yah I still have a strong HPTA so I am reconsider till HRT is inevitable....

    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    Clomid and nolva- clomid helps more so with the hpta shutdown and nolva works more for estro sides

    Yes they are both SERMS but act in different yet similar ways strangly

    Im on day 14 of my pct at 50 mgs clomid and everything with the boys is goin good
    Point taken....
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    Are you really 52? If so, nice damn work bro.

    I guess it all depends on what the goal is. If you're feeling like the deck is stacked against you in natty shows, and your placement is suffering b/c of it, leveling the playing field is certainly a viable option. Impossible to give advice on whether to cycle or not, it all depends on what YOU want.

    As for the cycle - 500 mg test, 400 Eq and 20 dbol will get you more than "a little bigger" in you put the kcals down. That cycle is only 20 mgs of dbol short of what an aspiring bodybuilder I know uses for his mass cycles, and he freakin' blew up on his first run (although he may have run the dbol for longer than 4 weeks). So yeah - the cycle looks great.

    As for PCT, I would add clomid to help with recovery, 15 weeks is a very suppressive cycle. I'd prob run PCT for 5 weeks too. Gotta be real careful at your age with recovering from a run like this, so keep that in mind. You may be better off with shorter, more frequent cycles, which are easier to recover from.

    Anyways, good luck in whatever you choose to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon13 View Post
    Are you really 52? If so, nice damn work bro.

    I guess it all depends on what the goal is. If you're feeling like the deck is stacked against you in natty shows, and your placement is suffering b/c of it, leveling the playing field is certainly a viable option. Impossible to give advice on whether to cycle or not, it all depends on what YOU want.

    As for the cycle - 500 mg test, 400 Eq and 20 dbol will get you more than "a little bigger" in you put the kcals down. That cycle is only 20 mgs of dbol short of what an aspiring bodybuilder I know uses for his mass cycles, and he freakin' blew up on his first run (although he may have run the dbol for longer than 4 weeks). So yeah - the cycle looks great.

    As for PCT, I would add clomid to help with recovery, 15 weeks is a very suppressive cycle. I'd prob run PCT for 5 weeks too. Gotta be real careful at your age with recovering from a run like this, so keep that in mind. You may be better off with shorter, more frequent cycles, which are easier to recover from.

    Anyways, good luck in whatever you choose to do.
    Yah I'm 52... and thanks

    Yah if I decide to go forward then I will definitely add Clomid... and probably HCG...

    I am interested in suggestions and examples of cycles that would be less suppressive lower risk... HPTA is a big issue. I don't know how long it will stay as high as it is but so far so good. One thing for sure is that I will not put up with low levels when it's time I will likely go HRT. Problem here in Canada is to get a co-operative Doctor, or so I assume.
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    One example shorter cycle was recommended by what I think is a very experienced user...

    8 weeks test prop 100 mgs eod, +50mgs proviron ed

    run pre-pct with hcg ..last few weeks of cycle

    5 weeks clomid Nolva...

    Recommended only once a year...

    With that low a dose of test is it feasible to use subq injection... as I have heard of people doing this for lower dosages... would make things a lot simpler...
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    i personally feel anadrol is one of the best orals out there ive used. lean, hard, i hardly gain any water because my water intake is sooo high, not much bloat at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    i personally feel anadrol is one of the best orals out there ive used. lean, hard, i hardly gain any water because my water intake is sooo high, not much bloat at all.
    You mean instead of the proviron...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    You mean instead of the proviron...?
    insteard of Dbol, or just as an oral kickstart

    proviron i never used because i always guess it was kind of "flawed" due to binding to the AR but having no muscle building ability.

    Anadrol can help lean you and put on size in beginning and end of the cycle.

    Test and Eq with it are great aswell, would be an excellent cycle.

    i would use an AI though like Adex.
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    I think that anything I do should address my issues due to my body type. The biggest issues are Leaning and hardening. A little more size would be good but the focus must be on these two. If I get leaner, harder and tighter I will look bigger and I already have some good size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    insteard of Dbol, or just as an oral kickstart

    proviron i never used because i always guess it was kind of "flawed" due to binding to the AR but having no muscle building ability.

    Anadrol can help lean you and put on size in beginning and end of the cycle.

    Test and Eq with it are great aswell, would be an excellent cycle.

    i would use an AI though like Adex.
    Yah I get it, that would make more sense than dbol.. thanks... that is the part of the cycle I was iffy on.

    I am leaning more towards the shorter Prop cycle now though...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah I get it, that would make more sense than dbol.. thanks... that is the part of the cycle I was iffy on.

    I am leaning more towards the shorter Prop cycle now though...
    shorter prop cycle would be fine,

    Less AI, shorter shutdown, easier recovery, less water retention, quicker gains,

    8-10 weeks on prop at 100-150mg EOD 5 weeks on Anadrol 50mg. adexd .5 mg 3x a week.

    no hCG unless you want to but deff not needed, clomid nolva PCT.
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    I'm putting together my second cycle and it looks like:

    Superdrol 20 mg week 1-4
    test e 500 mg week 1-12
    EQ 400 mg week 1-12
    hCG 250 iu 2x a week
    Adex (if needed)

    For an oral kickstart I'm thinking SD because it's the most powerful legal I can get my hands on and has very little water retention compared to dbol which will put on lots of water weight on you.

    Test and EQ by themselves I think would be a light cycle. It is your kickstart or "ending additions" that will determine what direction your cycle will go.

    What are your goals exactly weaver?
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    if lean and hard is what ur looking for ...

    Test Prop 100mg eod 1-8
    Winstrol 50mg ed 3-8
    HCG 250iu 2x per week 1-8

    Clomid 50/50/50/50 9-12 and/or Nolva 20/20/20/20 9-12

    and injections are IM, not SubQ
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I'm putting together my second cycle and it looks like:

    Superdrol 20 mg week 1-4
    test e 500 mg week 1-12
    EQ 400 mg week 1-12
    hCG 250 iu 2x a week
    Adex (if needed)

    For an oral kickstart I'm thinking SD because it's the most powerful legal I can get my hands on and has very little water retention compared to dbol which will put on lots of water weight on you.

    Test and EQ by themselves I think would be a light cycle. It is your kickstart or "ending additions" that will determine what direction your cycle will go.

    What are your goals exactly weaver?
    Lean and hard

    Quote Originally Posted by nosnmiveins View Post
    if lean and hard is what ur looking for ...

    Test Prop 100mg eod 1-8
    Winstrol 50mg ed 3-8
    HCG 250iu 2x per week 1-8

    Clomid 50/50/50/50 9-12 and/or Nolva 20/20/20/20 9-12

    and injections are IM, not SubQ
    Torn between this and the anabol cycle but this seems to be more on target for me... Yah I was hoping to get away with Subq as I heard of people doing this for low doses.... How fast does Prop kick in...
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    You can inject test sub Q if you want, I would opt for IM though. I injected 100mg prop sub q once and it was swolen and painful for a few days, I could feel the oil under my skin for a day or 2 as well. If I inject prop IM, I have very little to no pain so IM is the obvious winner here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Lean and hard



    Torn between this and the anabol cycle but this seems to be more on target for me... Yah I was hoping to get away with Subq as I heard of people doing this for low doses.... How fast does Prop kick in...

    do the winstrol over the anadrol, test prop should kick in within a week, I think clearance time for that ester is about 3 days or so (I could be wrong someone else chime in and correct me if I am). Dont do subq, im's are no big deal. Winny is a nice relacement for proviron, you will get more suppression, but more gains as well. Can also sub anavar at 40-60mgs for the winny, or masteron diprop for 100-150 mgs eod, or primo enanthate at 400 mgs per week though I would front load at 600 for the first two weeks and it would be more expensive (there is no scientific evidence for frontloading a longer ester, but some anecdotal feedback says it helps). Stay away from tren, it is a great physique enhancer, but shutdown is more severe and though again I have no scientific evidence, some users who have had troubles with heart, etc. one of the links between them was heavy tren use (there were many other factors, but suffice to say I would put tren as one of the more dangerous, although also effective, compounds around). Keep the outlined pct in the winny post, is about as good as it gets. Keep the cycle simple, the goal should be to use the least mgs, and the least amount of compounds to get the results you want, do not take ancillaries unless needed, and with the above they should not be needed, no AI's, no prolactin, no nothing, just the gear and pct, maybe liv protector if use var.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim1985 View Post
    You can inject test sub Q if you want, I would opt for IM though. I injected 100mg prop sub q once and it was swolen and painful for a few days, I could feel the oil under my skin for a day or 2 as well. If I inject prop IM, I have very little to no pain so IM is the obvious winner here.
    Ok so prop goes quite easily IM good to know, what do you use 23 guage ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Ok so prop goes quite easily IM good to know, what do you use 23 guage ?
    actually prop has been known to have a bite, can be somewhat sore the next day, but dont worry too much about it. Its not that thick, it is the ester I think that causes the soreness. Dont shoot this in odd places, stick with butt and shoulders in my opinion, no calves, bi's, tri's, etc.

    I remember my first shot was one of the old preload mexican sus250's, anyone remember those from a long time ago? The needle looked about as thick as lead in a pencil. I remember thinking to myself what I have gotten myslef into? No way I was going to back out though, spent too much money and had a few friends watching me and they all had theirs ready as well. Was sore for a couple days after those shots.
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    i think anadrol over any oral is great. amazing vascularity, size, strength, and lean factor.

    prop hurts but if you cant handle it get some steril cottenseed oil and cut it a bit.

    i like sust250, i can shoot 2mL in delt or quad and be ok. first 2-3 shots im sore then after that im good to go!
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    i wouldn't bother with the winstrol. After you come off winstrol, what has it added? Temporary strength, about 0 muscle, and the "hard" look will go away as fast as it came. Unless you're running it precontest, I don't see the point really.

    Cycle to get big, use a different cycle to look good precontest. I am more of a fan of the first Dbol/Test/EQ cycle mentioned here, that has the power to add some serious mass. 8 weeks of test prop at 350mg ew, MEH, totally weak compared to months of test stacked with EQ and kicked off with Dbol.
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    if your Worried about your HPTA take 250iu of HCG starting week 3 of your cycle every 4 days untill the 2nd to last week of the end of your cycle then drop the HCG. This will keep your body naturally producing test and recovery will be very quick. I would use clomid in my pct to get my LH going again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Ok so prop goes quite easily IM good to know, what do you use 23 guage ?
    Depends on the individual, I happen to respond well to it. I use a 23-25g(usually 25 these days)
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    Wow lots of new info here to fathom over, yah recovery is a big thing right now. The longer cycles are not that attractive in that department. I have quite a bit of size so I was hoping, some size with a leaner harder look.

    I will likely only run one cycle a year, as long as I make a full recovery then I'm good. The thing is I am told that the older you get the harder it is to recover.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeymutz View Post
    if your Worried about your HPTA take 250iu of HCG starting week 3 of your cycle every 4 days untill the 2nd to last week of the end of your cycle then drop the HCG. This will keep your body naturally producing test and recovery will be very quick. I would use clomid in my pct to get my LH going again.
    Yah HCG and Clomid would be a go...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Wow lots of new info here to fathom over, yah recovery is a big thing right now. The longer cycles are not that attractive in that department. I have quite a bit of size so I was hoping, some size with a leaner harder look.

    I will likely only run one cycle a year, as long as I make a full recovery then I'm good. The thing is I am told that the older you get the harder it is to recover.
    Even at your age, I can't imagine recovery being a big issue if you're using hCG on cycle and do a nice proper clomid pct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    Even at your age, I can't imagine recovery being a big issue if you're using hCG on cycle and do a nice proper clomid pct.
    Ok will consider it... if I can get away with a longer cycle then I will go for it. Kind of like the anadrol instead of dbol for the kick start though.
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    do you mean anabol or anadrol? I thought anabol = dbol
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    do you mean anabol or anadrol? I thought anabol = dbol
    Yah I already caught the spelling mistake lol bol drol it's all starting so sound alike...
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    I like the abombs instead of the dbol, the gains should be less wet. If you want to add lean mass have you considered masteron?
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    I've read about lean gains on anadrol and I've already read about absurd bloat caused by it. Apparently one of anadrol's metabolites has a strong affinity for SHBG and displaces test and estrogen, causing estrogenic sides like water retention and gyno. Which is why it isn't as "dry" as it should be when it can't aromatize.
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    50mg of proviron might just help.
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    DW, Wouldn't have predicted you making the switch. Will be interesting watching you make the cross.

    I'd offer advice, but most my knowledge is in prohormones, which you seem to be going more towards AAS.

    Good luck brother.
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    Tbol is a dry Dbol, lean mass gains, no bloat. No sides either except heartburn. There's ur oral kickstart
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    Tbol is my Favorite oral to use. lean mass, lower bf, higher libido. Sides are very low, never ran into any problems using tbol i just used it about a month ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    DW, Wouldn't have predicted you making the switch. Will be interesting watching you make the cross.

    I'd offer advice, but most my knowledge is in prohormones, which you seem to be going more towards AAS.

    Good luck brother.
    I am a long way from this kind of decision, I just want to be ready should I decide to flip the switch...

    Quote Originally Posted by GnastyMcNasty View Post
    Tbol is a dry Dbol, lean mass gains, no bloat. No sides either except heartburn. There's ur oral kickstart
    Quote Originally Posted by joeymutz View Post
    Tbol is my Favorite oral to use. lean mass, lower bf, higher libido. Sides are very low, never ran into any problems using tbol i just used it about a month ago.
    Good to know, it doesn't take a long time to kick in like Halodrol ?
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    no i feel it with 4-5 days. It kicks in very fast.
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    Thinking precontest here..

    8 weeks test prop 100 mgs eod weeks 1-8
    Masteron prop 350 week ... 100 eod weeks 1-10?
    hcg twice a week weeks 3-8 ?
    Winstrol 50 mg ed weeks 5-10

    Clomid 50 ed weeks 11-15

    Got some good advice just trying to fill in the gaps... still haven't decided have to look at cost etc.. Most seem to think that I will be able to bounce back just fine with HCG during cycle and a clomid PCT.

    I really don't need to get that much bigger, some size would be nice but hard and lean is more important in my case.

    Still need to do a bit of tweaking but got the basics.
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    DW what is your bodyfat? having used mast I really strongly recommend you only bother with it if you are 9% or under (or plan on getting there during this cycle). I think it is an aesthetic drug and has basically 0 value for adding muscle and contributes negligibly to fatloss itself (some extra DHT nothing more).
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