swany
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http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?threadid=263889&perpage=30&pagenumber=5
Big Cat:
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]"Under methyl-hydroxy nandrolone, it says a reduction of side effects. If the 4-Oh is not metabolized and reduces aromatisation, then it also reduces 5-alpha-reduction. in the case of nandrolone, such a reduction reduces androgenic side-effects by 10 times. By using the 4OH you are actually increasing the androgenic side-effect profile by 10 times, putting it in the range of DHT.
looking forward to seeing more data on these products. i'm not one for hype, I'm more a of a data kind of guy."[/font]
Seth Roberts:
"Big Cat: By adding the hydroxy you are eliminating the possibilty of aromatization of the nandrolone molecule (which is especially problematic with nandrolone due to its progestational activity). With regard to 5-alpha reduction, yes, you are increasing the net androgenicity becuase the molecule will not convert to dihydronandrolone, but you are also reducing the AR binding affinity through the addition of the 4-oh. I personally refer hydroxytest over hydroxynandrolone (same for the methylated versions)."
Big Cat:
"First of all I think you are overestimating the estrogen problems. The aromatization is only 10% that of testosterone, and as a result even combined with the progestagenic enhancement of estrogenic action it is still less dramatic than for say testosterone, a drug that rarely gives problems with gyno in doses of 750 mg a week or up, unless the subjects are very prone.
It also allows for very little stacking option if you figure it is a major problem, because the progestagenic activity remains and any combination with an aromatizing steroid would immediately result in an enhancement of that action from the hydroxynandrolone.
I have yet to see any evidence on OH steroids and if the OH is actually a significant enough group to stop enzymatic action to a large degree. But i'm assuming it is and that its stable (or you probably wouldn't risk selling it).
Then that brings us back to the inhibition of 5-alpha-reduction. I doubt the lesser binding to the AR is significant enough to make up for a 10-fold increase in potential to androgenic sides. Plus, a reduction in AR affinity would result in equally diminished returns in muscle gain, perfectly negating the one major plus nandrolone has. Either way, your anabolic: androgenic ratio would be 1:1 whereas for nandrolone, theoretically, it was 10:1, with 10 times the affinity for the AR in muscle compared to other tissues.
I was never a big fan of nandrolone to begin with, but by inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase, you have effectively removed its one major benefit."
Tomas101:
"ok i'm confused...m4ohn may raise dht?? i thought didnt convert to dht?"
Big Cat:
"It doesn't raise DHT. DHT also doesn't matter. Androgenic problems arise as a result of androgenic action in those tissues. In a human being not using anything the problem arises because in those tissues it is not testosterone that is the dominant androgen, but DHT. testosterone converts to DHT through the 5AR enzyme and DHT is three times as potent in those tissues. If you inhibit DHT conversion then you get unconverted testosterone in those tissues as the dominant androgen, and three times less chance of androgenic side-effects, while maintaining equal direct anabolic effects in muscle since testosterone is the dominant androgen there. (I do say direct anabolic effects, DHT does contribute to health and gains in many other ways).
Nandrolone is actually of the same potency as DHT. If you have nandrolone in problem tissues it is just as bad as DHT. However the benefit of nandrolone is that it uses the same 5AR enzyme that converts test to DHT, and uses it to convert to DHN, which is 10 times less potent. As such, it is less androgenic than even even testosterone by a factor 3.3 and less androgenic than DHT by a factor 10 (theoretical numbers only)
By using 4OH, you are not only reducing aromatase conversion, but also 5AR conversion, meaning you get pure nandrolone in those tissues like scalp and prostate, which would be same as DHT, thereby negating the one major plus nandrolone has over other steroids. If it doesn't have that, its actually a very crude and rather useless steroid."
Patrick Arnold:
"huh?
there is an OH at the 4 position big cat. therefore, the properties are not gonna be the same as with nandrolone, even if the delta 4 double bond survives metabolism
vida says it has 2.8 androgen and 13 times anabolic action compared to m-test.
you made a deduction based on the influence of the 4-OH on the metabolism of the rest of the steroid, but completely forgot that the 4-OH also will influence the pharmacological action (receptor binding whatever)
not thinking at all there BC"
Legal Gear (EDog):
"Agreed.
The issue is that it is not Nandrolone, so although you may think it to be higher than Nandrolone/DHN complex in total androgenic activity we can most likely conclude through the RBA's of OH-Testestosterone and the data in Vida that the OH group lowers both the anabolic and androgenic affinity of a steroid, thus making it inherently less androgenic than Nandrolone which should offset the 5aR issue."
Patrick Arnold:
(Originally posted by Big Cat
By using 4OH, you are not only reducing aromatase conversion, but also 5AR conversion, meaning you get pure nandrolone in those tissues like scalp and prostate, . )
"you are getting 4-OH nandrolone in these tissues, not nandrolone
and they are NOT the same thing at all
duh...."
Patrick Arnold:
"vida book shows that this compound is not very androgenic, at least from a ratio standpoint
now whether or not what is in the bottle is what is supposed to be, god knows. there are no analytical standards available to judge against
i do have a GC/MS though, and if i am sent a small sample i can at least see if the molecular weight is correct"
Big Cat:
"Nope, not at all, just mentioning some things off the top of my head. Which is why I took care to state it was merely theoretical."
Jedi Master:
"Patrick didnt Bruce say that this will be very androgenic??"
Patrick Arnold:
"i dunno what bruce says, but who do you think knows more about steroid pharmacology, bruce or myself?"
SldgeHmr:
"so far everyone that is using M4OHN, there are very low androgenic sides, small amounts of acne is all I have heard so far."
No Mercy:
"Patrick, I appreciate your input. So overall do you feel that MOHN looks like a solid effective compound on paper? Thank you"
Patrick Arnold:
"yeah
i just want someone to ask all these folks how they plan to have the identity and the purity of this compound determined?
by what analytical methods, and will they share the analytical results with us.
Given the recent debacle with m-dien I would expect the consumer would demand this"
Big Cat:
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]"Under methyl-hydroxy nandrolone, it says a reduction of side effects. If the 4-Oh is not metabolized and reduces aromatisation, then it also reduces 5-alpha-reduction. in the case of nandrolone, such a reduction reduces androgenic side-effects by 10 times. By using the 4OH you are actually increasing the androgenic side-effect profile by 10 times, putting it in the range of DHT.
looking forward to seeing more data on these products. i'm not one for hype, I'm more a of a data kind of guy."[/font]
Seth Roberts:
"Big Cat: By adding the hydroxy you are eliminating the possibilty of aromatization of the nandrolone molecule (which is especially problematic with nandrolone due to its progestational activity). With regard to 5-alpha reduction, yes, you are increasing the net androgenicity becuase the molecule will not convert to dihydronandrolone, but you are also reducing the AR binding affinity through the addition of the 4-oh. I personally refer hydroxytest over hydroxynandrolone (same for the methylated versions)."
Big Cat:
"First of all I think you are overestimating the estrogen problems. The aromatization is only 10% that of testosterone, and as a result even combined with the progestagenic enhancement of estrogenic action it is still less dramatic than for say testosterone, a drug that rarely gives problems with gyno in doses of 750 mg a week or up, unless the subjects are very prone.
It also allows for very little stacking option if you figure it is a major problem, because the progestagenic activity remains and any combination with an aromatizing steroid would immediately result in an enhancement of that action from the hydroxynandrolone.
I have yet to see any evidence on OH steroids and if the OH is actually a significant enough group to stop enzymatic action to a large degree. But i'm assuming it is and that its stable (or you probably wouldn't risk selling it).
Then that brings us back to the inhibition of 5-alpha-reduction. I doubt the lesser binding to the AR is significant enough to make up for a 10-fold increase in potential to androgenic sides. Plus, a reduction in AR affinity would result in equally diminished returns in muscle gain, perfectly negating the one major plus nandrolone has. Either way, your anabolic: androgenic ratio would be 1:1 whereas for nandrolone, theoretically, it was 10:1, with 10 times the affinity for the AR in muscle compared to other tissues.
I was never a big fan of nandrolone to begin with, but by inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase, you have effectively removed its one major benefit."
Tomas101:
"ok i'm confused...m4ohn may raise dht?? i thought didnt convert to dht?"
Big Cat:
"It doesn't raise DHT. DHT also doesn't matter. Androgenic problems arise as a result of androgenic action in those tissues. In a human being not using anything the problem arises because in those tissues it is not testosterone that is the dominant androgen, but DHT. testosterone converts to DHT through the 5AR enzyme and DHT is three times as potent in those tissues. If you inhibit DHT conversion then you get unconverted testosterone in those tissues as the dominant androgen, and three times less chance of androgenic side-effects, while maintaining equal direct anabolic effects in muscle since testosterone is the dominant androgen there. (I do say direct anabolic effects, DHT does contribute to health and gains in many other ways).
Nandrolone is actually of the same potency as DHT. If you have nandrolone in problem tissues it is just as bad as DHT. However the benefit of nandrolone is that it uses the same 5AR enzyme that converts test to DHT, and uses it to convert to DHN, which is 10 times less potent. As such, it is less androgenic than even even testosterone by a factor 3.3 and less androgenic than DHT by a factor 10 (theoretical numbers only)
By using 4OH, you are not only reducing aromatase conversion, but also 5AR conversion, meaning you get pure nandrolone in those tissues like scalp and prostate, which would be same as DHT, thereby negating the one major plus nandrolone has over other steroids. If it doesn't have that, its actually a very crude and rather useless steroid."
Patrick Arnold:
"huh?
there is an OH at the 4 position big cat. therefore, the properties are not gonna be the same as with nandrolone, even if the delta 4 double bond survives metabolism
vida says it has 2.8 androgen and 13 times anabolic action compared to m-test.
you made a deduction based on the influence of the 4-OH on the metabolism of the rest of the steroid, but completely forgot that the 4-OH also will influence the pharmacological action (receptor binding whatever)
not thinking at all there BC"
Legal Gear (EDog):
"Agreed.
The issue is that it is not Nandrolone, so although you may think it to be higher than Nandrolone/DHN complex in total androgenic activity we can most likely conclude through the RBA's of OH-Testestosterone and the data in Vida that the OH group lowers both the anabolic and androgenic affinity of a steroid, thus making it inherently less androgenic than Nandrolone which should offset the 5aR issue."
Patrick Arnold:
(Originally posted by Big Cat
By using 4OH, you are not only reducing aromatase conversion, but also 5AR conversion, meaning you get pure nandrolone in those tissues like scalp and prostate, . )
"you are getting 4-OH nandrolone in these tissues, not nandrolone
and they are NOT the same thing at all
duh...."
Patrick Arnold:
"vida book shows that this compound is not very androgenic, at least from a ratio standpoint
now whether or not what is in the bottle is what is supposed to be, god knows. there are no analytical standards available to judge against
i do have a GC/MS though, and if i am sent a small sample i can at least see if the molecular weight is correct"
Big Cat:
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]([/font]Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
huh?
there is an OH at the 4 position big cat. therefore, the properties are not gonna be the same as with nandrolone, even if the delta 4 double bond survives metabolism
vida says it has 2.8 androgen and 13 times anabolic action compared to m-test.
you made a deduction based on the influence of the 4-OH on the metabolism of the rest of the steroid, but completely forgot that the 4-OH also will influence the pharmacological action (receptor binding whatever)
not thinking at all there BC)
huh?
there is an OH at the 4 position big cat. therefore, the properties are not gonna be the same as with nandrolone, even if the delta 4 double bond survives metabolism
vida says it has 2.8 androgen and 13 times anabolic action compared to m-test.
you made a deduction based on the influence of the 4-OH on the metabolism of the rest of the steroid, but completely forgot that the 4-OH also will influence the pharmacological action (receptor binding whatever)
not thinking at all there BC)
"Nope, not at all, just mentioning some things off the top of my head. Which is why I took care to state it was merely theoretical."
Jedi Master:
"Patrick didnt Bruce say that this will be very androgenic??"
Patrick Arnold:
"i dunno what bruce says, but who do you think knows more about steroid pharmacology, bruce or myself?"
SldgeHmr:
"so far everyone that is using M4OHN, there are very low androgenic sides, small amounts of acne is all I have heard so far."
No Mercy:
"Patrick, I appreciate your input. So overall do you feel that MOHN looks like a solid effective compound on paper? Thank you"
Patrick Arnold:
"yeah
i just want someone to ask all these folks how they plan to have the identity and the purity of this compound determined?
by what analytical methods, and will they share the analytical results with us.
Given the recent debacle with m-dien I would expect the consumer would demand this"