- 05-18-2004, 06:59 PM
Ok guys, ive been a lurker here for quite some time, and finaly decided to jump in and try my first cycle
6'3 272 (unknown BF% but its on the higher side)
I work out pretty regularly 3-4 times a week.
here is my idea
3-4 weeks of
M-1test 10 mg
4-AD (oral) 600 mg
Pick up the workouts, medium weight, lots of reps (looking more to build lean muscle mass/cut)
around 2500 cal pr day
mostly protien, moderate carb, moderate fat. 4-5 meals pr day
looking to use Clen and Nolva for PCT
Also should i consider more of each due to my large size?
- 05-18-2004, 08:04 PM
Dude, you need way more than 600mg 4AD if you're going oral. It has very low bioavailability in that form. Transdermal is the way to go.
Also, for a first cycle, many recommend against M1T. At 272, though, 10mg is a safe starter dosage.
2500 cals seems too low for someone weighing 272 and taking an androgen.
Lastly, you should add liver protection and other ancillaries b/c M1T is some stong shiznit.
- 05-18-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Brodus
Im also using a Flaxoil soft gel and Taurine, with a solid multivitamin
Calories, well this is where i get lost, i was looking between 2500-3000 as a target, how high should my caloric intake be?
also i agree transdermal is the way to go, but due to convinience issues i decided to go with the oral. If 600 is too low how high should i go? 900 or 1200?
PS any other suppliments you guys can offer advice on adding to this cycle would be greatly appreciated
05-18-2004, 08:40 PM
I would also suggest going with a transdermal, much more bang for your buck. If you must take the 4-ad orally I believe I have heard that you need at least 1 gram a day, but dont quote me on that.
05-19-2004, 12:03 PM
any one else have an idea how much 4-ad i need to take orally?
Also any other suppliments i should add to my diet to help with sides or to help increase gains?
05-19-2004, 12:28 PM
Yes, 1 gram orally per day. Your body just destroys the stuff in the digestive tract.
The worst side I got from M1T was back cramps; when running, they got really bad. A good supplement to add to alleviate some of the cramping possibilities is Taurine. I took about 3-5 grams per day in gatorade (got bulk powder cheaply from 1fast400). Looks like you're taking this already. That and eat a lot of bananas and drink orange juice to boost potassium levels naturally.
Only other advice is keep your calories up-->I really don't think 2500 or even 3000 is nearly enough for someone who weighs 272. I weigh 200 and my maintenance cals are around 2500. I can't give you a number-->you have to figure it out for yourself, based on trial and error, metabolic factors, etc. I would spend some time on this forum or one of the many others and get this down. This is the deciding factor as to how much you will gain on cycle, so it's essential to have it together. Just to give you an idea, guys your size routinely go 4000+ on cycle.
05-19-2004, 01:14 PM
IMO this is a bad first cycle.
1. You should not be using M 1-T for a first cycle.
2. You should not use 4-AD as an oral.
I am surprised that "a lurker here for quite some time" would make such choices. Please do yourself a favor and try something like a 1-T/4-AD transdermal.
05-19-2004, 01:19 PM
If you were to use a transdermal 1t/4ad for your first cycle you should see great gains...you can save the m1t for another cycle.
05-19-2004, 01:35 PM
the decision to use 4-AD oral is very simple, convinence, i dont find the transdermals to be convienet what so ever, the oral meathod will work much better for me. (atleast for this cycle)Originally Posted by Cogar
Agreed the M 1-t 4-ad oral would not normally be a good choice however i have researched my other options and have made the decision on what i feel is best for me.
now again i appreciate the feed back, and i understand the reasons for the comments that have been made, but the question im asking is for the cycle stated above what else should i add? and are my doses inline if i were to go with a M 1-t @ 10mg, and the 4-AD @ 900-1200 pr day?
thanks again guys
05-19-2004, 01:47 PM
I would definitely keep the m1t at 10mg ato start and adjust as needed..and the 4ad at least a gram oral...I would also add r-ala and supps for your liver and make sure your diet is in check and training also. And you pct of nolva and clen sounds good.
05-19-2004, 01:56 PM
Yes, but I agree with Cogar.Originally Posted by 94SupraTT
05-19-2004, 03:14 PM
ok so here is a stupid question,
Due to my higher bf% if i ate too few calories would my body begin to rely on stored fat to build the muscle? just curious, (if this were the case i would be real happy haha, i dont think ive ever seen this asked directly )
let me clarify, what i would love to see happen with this cycle is more of a body composition change, lowering my BF% while inceasing lean muscle mass, not quite a cutting routine more of a conversion type deal, hard to explain
BTW if not possible to do both, ill take the muscle haha
05-19-2004, 04:37 PM
It would be nice if it worked that way, but it does not. Fat is typically used by your body for low energy activities such as sleeping (if your stomach, etc. is empty), sitting at a desk, walking, etc. To build muscle, your body needs protein, which is not stored anywhere (unless you count muscle).Originally Posted by 94SupraTT
You have two options:Originally Posted by 94SupraTT
1. Build muscle while adding as little fat as possible (bulking).
2. Reduce fat while losing as little muscle as possible (cutting).
Each requires a different type of diet and exercise regimen. For example, the program written in Body-for-LIFE by Bill Phillips does claim to be able to do both, although it is more of a cutting program.
05-19-2004, 04:41 PM
that was pretty much what i figured haha just wanted to be sure i was correct, thanksOriginally Posted by Cogar
05-19-2004, 04:49 PM
Cogar is right. I thought this whole bulking/cutting dichotomy was false when I started, but I've learned it is correct through personal experience. It's very difficult to convince your body to build big muscles while you're simultaneously starving it of the building blocks it needs to do so.
I think you essentially are wanting to cut, and I personally think there are much better supplements for cutting than M1T.
For instance, you could go the M-Dien route-->many people report "Composition Change" as the biggest effect, and it's low sides would be perfect for a first-timer.
Anything really strong requires 4AD, and that means bloating and gaining weight, and you don't want that.
It's a waste of M1T (and why risk possible bad sides) to go way under maintenance with your calories, IMO.
05-19-2004, 04:58 PM
acctually the idea was more along the lines of 1 bluking cycle to build extrea lean muscle mass, followed closely by 2 or 3 cutting cycles to help reduce the body fat.Originally Posted by Brodus
I had a strange idea to reduce calories and attempt to do both at the same time, i figured this would not work, but thought i would ask just in case
does my plan make a lil more sence now?
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