- 05-17-2010, 04:08 PM
Hey Everyone. Found this article and looking for opinions. It's a bit of a read, but might be worth it. Dr D if you have time would be appreciated. I'm always a little skeptical when adds and plugs come up at the end, so I've deleted them from the original article.
Creatine+steroids: Wasting your money, or wasting your steroids? Find out now!
There is no doubt that creatine is one of the biggest supplement breakthroughs to hit the market since the invention of protein powder. The effects of creatine use can no longer even be questioned. In fact creatine works so well that some sports leagues have banned its use. Why creatine is so well known for promoting muscle mass, and is so effective at doing so. That many of us have a friend or two who have made the comment “dude you're taking creatine? That's the same thing as taking steroids, its cheating!!!” Of course you and I know better, and anyone who has spent enough time on a steroid/bodybuilding forum also knows better. OR DO THEY???
If you have spent time one any steroid/bodybuilding forum you may have seen this questioned asked more than a few times. Is creatine worth taking well on a steroid cycle?
Often no real good answer for either side of the argument is given. Half truths, guesses, and at best a semi explained reason for one side or the other. Today I am not only going to give the the answer but cover the topic in great detail. If you're not taking creatine with your steroid cycles now, you will be after today. If you are taking creatine during your steroid cycles you will double or triple your intake after today. Today you will not only learn why creatine is worth taking during a steroid cycle but that is detrimental to your gains. Today you will learn that creatine can be the difference in good gains and Massive gains!!!!
Normally I would like to have put everything in my own words. However the following quote covers the fundamental foundations of the topic so thoroughly that it’s imposable not to use his work. So I will simple build on the foundation in which Mr. Michael Gunddill has set in place for us.
“Michael Gundill (a.k.a. Dharkam)....Although creatine does have testosterone-like effects, it doesn't act as a steroid hormone. Instead, it's a mediator of some of the androgens' anabolic effects. In fact, steroid users get far more out of their cycles if they take in massive amounts of creatine along with the drugs. Androgens are among the hormones that can force the entry of creatine into muscle cells. While there's a clear relationship between muscle strength gains and increases in muscle creatine stores, unfortunately, the relationship is not as obvious when it comes to increases in muscle mass. Animal-based studies have shown that the muscles of untrained rats take up as much creatine as the muscles of trained rats, but the ANABOLIC effects of creatine are only obvious in trained rats. Therefore, training increases the muscles sensitivity to the anabolic actions of creatine. (Although it's not related to this article,the study also demonstrated that the anabolic effects of creatine are DIRECT, and not mediated by water retention. In fact, in the 1970s American and Russian studies pointed out a DIRECT anabolic effect of creatine on muscle cells). Testosterone increases the muscles' sensitivity to the anabolic properties of creatine in addition to enhancing the creatine buildup in muscle fibers. It's also obvious that part of the strength gains people experience while on steroids are mediated by an increase in muscle creatine stores. An interesting discovery A/S users have made is that they should dramatically increase their creatine intake during a cycle to boost the potency of the steroids. Thanks to creatine, people can build more muscle mass with fewer drugs. Anecdotal evidence from A/S users points out that it takes at least 10-15 grams(maintenance)of creatine a day to visibly enhance the the anabolic potency of a steroid stack. There are probably good reasons for the increased creatine requirement when androgen levels are high. As mentioned above, steroids increase the muscle uptake of creatine, and if the muscles are ready to accept more creatine, why not give it to them? I also think that even though steroids enhance creatine synthesis, they may increase creatine degradation as well-so more creatine is used up every day. That could be due to an increase in muscle creatine turnover and also the fact that an elevated muscle Protein synthesis rate will likely consume creatine at a faster rate. Other reasons for a higher creatine requirement may be indirect. Because the muscles of drug users are stronger and receive more training, they may waste greater amounts of creatine during training. Once inside the muscle, creatine provides not only an anabolic effect, but also a rapidly mobilized source of fuel. Muscle Protein synthesis is a process that wastes great amounts of energy. Anabolism is an ATP-dependent process, which means that it's essential for Protein synthesis. If the cellular level of ATP is reduced even a little, IT STOPS ANABOLISM. So even if you can increase the testosterone content of your muscles, nothing will happen if your ATP level is low. Creatine supports anabolism by providing energy to the muscle"
Now I will expand on this subject and shed light as to why this guy was pretty much spot on with what he said. People always promote creatine off cycle, but I like our good friend "Michael Gundill" Feel the steroid world must know the truth, and we must change the way people think!!
Recent research has shown that both creatine and AAS work through the same mechanisms within the body. The most notable mechanism in which they work through to create their anabolic effects is GLUT-4. Glucose transporter 4 (GLUT4) belongs to the assisted glucose transporter family and is mainly expressed in insulin-sensitive tissues, muscle and fat. In response to insulin, and other stimuli such as exercise, GLUT4 undergoes a rapid redistribution within the cell that results in a gain in surface of GLUT4 levels, and this mechanism predominantly accounts for changes in glucose transport in muscle and adipocytes (liver cells). This mechanism involves a complex interplay between signal transduction and vesicular transport pathways. As we all know insulin plays a huge role in controlling blood glucose. This also explains why bodybuilders are willing to gamble and inject insulin even though they know there is a chance of dying after each injection. After this research was released doctors told their diabetic patients to sway from creatine usage due to its similarity to insulin in which it works within the body! While creatine may not be as potent as Slin it still holds its own benefits not only through Glut-4 but through other prime examples you will read.
What is Creatine:
Creatine is an nitrogen based organic amino acid that supplies ATP to the muscles. In humans, about half of the daily creatine is biosynthesized from three different amino acidsarginine, glycine, and methionine. The rest is taken in by alimentary sources. Ninety-five percent of creatine is later stored in the skeletal muscles. About 50% of our creatine is obtained from our diet (mainly meats) and the balance is created/manufactured by our own liver, pancreas and kidneys through endogenous synthesis aka our own protein synthesis without the help of Gear. Vegetarians have creatine in their muscles, but at a lower level than meat eaters. The respectable average external daily dietary requirement is about 2 grams obtained from meat and meat products. Demanded muscle energy comes from the ATP-PC (adenosine triphosphate-phosphacreatine) system. ATP is basically a source of readily available muscular energy source. ATP is the compound muscles use to do work. It's the "PC" part of the the ATP-PC system that regenerates ATP levels. The body only makes about 1 to 3 grams of creatine per day. Creatine uptake is augmented by combining creatine supplementation with exercise and with carbohydrate ingestion. There is one way creatine works. One way is through anaerobic glycolysis also known as anaerobic exercise. When we're exercising hard; ATP is released to the muscular system in order to give us continuing muscular energy. And, of course, we know what happens. Waste products like lactic acid build up in the muscles as a result of anaerobic activity and we get tired! Creatine of course delays the lactic acid build factor by providing the much needed ATP to the muscle. This is where creatine steps in. While no one fully understands the way creatine supplements work, a 1994 study demonstrated that creatine phosphate stored in muscles lead to a lesser dependence on the anaerobic process for the replenishing of muscular ATP! This means less muscular waste products like lactic acid and enables a longer cycle of muscular activity before fatigue and muscular exhaustion.
French scientist Michel Eugene Chevreul discovered creatine in 1835. Chevreul isolated a component of skeletal muscle - the voluntary muscle we use in exercise - and named it after the Greek work for flesh -Kreas. He found the presence of muscular creatine was ten times more concentrated in wild animal muscle than in zoo animal muscles. This observation linked creatine with effective muscular activity - the thought being that a wild tiger, for instance, could be expected to run and jump better than a captive tiger.
Creatine is primarily found in skeletal muscle and early 1900's research indicated that the presence of creatine in skeletal muscle could be increased by eating more meat. This leads us to the early historical use of creatine and creatine sources. Creatine benefits have been recognized for a long time. A Wrestler by the name of Milo of Croton is one of the first documented competing strong men. He lived in the late 6th century B.C. and was a five time wrestling champion at the 62nd through 66th Olympiads. Milo's daily diet included 20 pounds of meat daily! Milo incongruously died while attempting to split a tree trunk by hand without using wedges. Milo became stuck in the tree and was subsequently eaten by wolves. This shows why meat is clearly a great source of creatine, reason why I ALWAYS suggest meat to be eaten instead of an only whey diet. A 1928 study showed that creatine increased muscular body mass and weight and opened the door to creatine as a possible source of athletic performance improvement. Eastern Bloc countries in fact have used creatine benefits as athletic performance enhancer since the 1922 Olympics. Some sports historians feel that it was creatine that gave cold war era athletes their Olympic edge over other competitors. In the 1990's researchers brought creatine to the public as an ergogenic aid, and muscular strength enhancer. The rumors of creatine benefits entered the sports performance markets, which allowed this dietary supplement sales to soar. In, 1997 sales of creatine in the United States alone topped $100 million US dollars and have continued to grow well past 400 million in the US alone as of 2001. Today creatine makes up a whopping 10% of the sports supplement market!!
More interestingly, a 1998 survey conducted by a British newspaper on 360 elite athletes showed 44% were using creatine regularly (daily basis), including 100% of rugby league players and 100% of weightlifters. To no surprises it was these types of athletes, since the creatine benefits are primarily associated with explosive athletic movements or explosive output.
About 50% of our creatine is obtained from our diet (meats) and the balance is created by our own liver, pancreas and kidneys through endogenous synthesis. This is why vegetarians have creatine in their muscles, although at a lower level than meat eaters. The recognized average external daily dietary requirement is about 2 grams obtained from meat and meat products. To understand the role of creatine in muscular activity we need a little background in muscular physiology 101. On-demand muscle energy comes from the ATP-PC (adenosine triphosphate-phosphacreatine) system. Think of ATP as a readily available muscular energy source. ATP is the compound muscles use to do work. It's the "PC" part of the ATP-PC system that refreshes ATP levels. The body only makes about 1 to 3 grams of creatine per day. Creatine uptake is augmented by combining creatine supplementation with exercise and with carbohydrate ingestion.
There's a couple of ways this works. One way is through "anaerobic glycolysis" - anaerobic exercise. When we're exercising hard this is the muscular system that is giving us continuing muscular energy. And, of course, we know what happens. Waste products like lactic acid build up in the muscles as a result of anaerobic activity and we get tired!
This is where creatine steps in. While no one fully understands the way creatine supplements work, a 1994 study demonstrated that creatine phosphate stored in muscles lead to a lesser dependence on the anaerobic process for the replenishing of muscular ATP! This means less muscular waste products like lactic acid and enables a longer cycle of muscular activity before fatigue and muscular exhaustion.
- 05-17-2010, 04:09 PM
Creatine good for the brain?
This study, along with a couple I came across explain that besides the ergogenic benefits creatine acts as a neuroprotective in possibly allowing one to avoid Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease. AAS is known to have neuro stimulative activities along with nuero damaging properties. Another reason why creatine should be reconsidered while on cycle to minimize any potential damage one may encounter during cycle. Am I saying that AAS is going to give you neurological issues NOT AT ALL! I am just suggesting that it is always good to have supporting supplements while on just in case if one is unaware of any genetic or medical issues and creatine definitely provides health to brain function.
Perks of Increased Protein Synthesis while on Cycle!
As you may know already, AAS increase both nitrogen retention and protein synthesis. One reason why many say eat, lift,sleep, then eat again and you will grow! The more protein the better, many say well only on cycle can you really reap the benefits of increased protein synthesis, yet I have two articles here that display that creatine ENHANCES PROTEIN SYNTHESIS!
What is Protein synthesis?
It’s a process by which ones DNA encodes the proteins and and aminos for specific instructions. The process of protein synthesis is undergone through two steps which are Transcription (first step) and Translation. These steps just take mRNA splice them to the cell and make the function or development of the DNA’s plan.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t.PPMCAppContr oller.PPMCArticlePage.PPMCPubm edRA&linkpos=3
Creatine is a myostatin inhibitor!
See, lots of people feel that creatine on cycle is a waste because it only ads “water weight”, but that is false as you can see since creatine a myostatin blocker. This makes gains on cycle even GREATER than when on gear alone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...426911/?page=4
What are Myostatin levels?
A team of scientists/researchers were led by McPherron and Lee at John Hopkins University was investigating a group of proteins that regulate cell growth and differentiation. During their investigations they discovered the gene that could be responsible for the improbability of increased muscle mass, also known as double-muscling (1, 2). Myostatin, is the protein that encodes the gene. It’s a member of a of related molecules called transforming growth factors beta (TGF-b ).Myostatin is also called or titled as growth and differentiation factor-8 (GDF-8). Higher living organisms are comprised of many different types of cells whose growth, function and development must be coordinated for the function of individual tissues, and the entire organism as a whole. This function is attainable by specific intercellular signals, which control tissue growth, function and development. These molecular signals display a surge of events in the target cells, referred to as cell signaling, leading to a maximum response within or by the cell. Typical hormones are long-range signaling molecules which are known as the endocrine hormones (which are responsible for TESTOSTERONE and other androgens). These substances are produced and secreted by cells or tissues (pituitary glands) and circulated through the blood supply and other bodily fluids to enhance the activity of cells or tissues elsewhere within the body. Growth factors (GF) are normally effective in EXTREMELY low concentrations and have high affinity for their corresponding receptors on target cells. For each type of GF there is a specific receptor in the cell membrane and/or nucleus. When GF is bound to their ligand, the receptor-ligand complex begins an intracellular signal inside of the cell or nucleus, and modifies the cell’s function. A GF may have different biological effects depending on which type of cell with which it interacts. The response of a target cell depends greatly on the receptors that cell expresses. Some GFs, such as insulin-like growth factor (IGF) have broad specificity and affect many classes of cells. Others act only on one cell type and display a specific response. Many growth factors promote or inhibit cellular function and could definitely be multifactoral. Two or more substances may be required to induce a specific cellular response. Creation, growth and development of most cells require a specific combination of GFs rather than a single GF. Growth promoting substances may be counterbalanced by growth inhibiting substances (and vice versa) much like a feedback system. The point where many of these substances correspond to produce a specific response depends on other regulatory factors, such as environmental or otherwise. Here is a fun fact; so far studies suggest that African Americans tend to have low serum concentrations of myostatin levels which explain why they develop such refined fast twitch muscle fibers. One of the reasons why scientists are trying to find a way to naturally inhibit myostatin levels, thus far they have been unsuccessful in doing so. So now think about it; creatine inhibits myostatin which allows for faster recovery, muscle growth, fast twitch muscle fiber development(enhanced athletic development), and bone/muscle regeneration. Sounds like combining it with a AAS would be OUTSTANDING. The magic doesn't stop there!!!!!
Pay close attention, If you have ever been caught saying " I only use steroids, and supplements are all a waste of money" You are about to look like a fool my friend and everyone's going to be laughing at you once the word gets out.
Muscle cells or muscle fibers are multinucleated. In other words they have more than one nuclei that control the complex tasks they take on throughout the day.
An example if you will. If your muscle was a product manufacturing plant and the nuclei were the workers at this plant. It would be very easy to see that the number of workers in the plant sets the limit of product output from the plant, and also directly effects the size to which the manufacturing plant can grow to. Both the size of the plant and the product output form it cannot increase without more workers. In the same sense (or in a roundabout way) both the size of your muscles and there output are limited to the number of nuclei within the muscle fibers. Putting it as simple as one can. Without more nuclei to take care of extra muscle, growth and output can only increase so much. After which your muscle are stuck in the small business market until a company expansion takes place and new employees are brought in to take on the extra work load.
These muscle nuclei sprout from specialized cells around the muscle called satellite cells. So without a increase in satellite cells a increase in nuclei cannot take place. Think of your satellite cells as your human resources department. They do all the hiring of employees and thus help expand your number of workers. without a good functioning HR department you get no steady flow of workers coming in. Likewise a thriving satellite team means the possibility of a good steady flow of fresh new employees to work your muscle factory and keep it growing.
The use of steroids has shown to increase the number of satellite cells within the muscle fibers. This of course leads to a increase in nuclei (workers). Creatine through human study has shown to
ncrease the number of nuclei that sprout forth from the number of increased satellite cells!!!!! So let me do the math for all you “I only use steroids, and supplements are all a waste of money" keyboard commandos out on the forums.
Steroids+creatine= more satellite cells+more nuclei=THE ABILITY TO GROW LARGER MUSCLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry I had to be the one to break it to you guys. Supplements are not a waste of money and in fact if you are not taking creatine with your steroid cycles. You are the one wasting your money
not getting the gains from your steroid cycles that you could have been getting. Creatine continues to prove to the world why it should be a staple for any hardcore athlete and bodybuilder. Now it’s proved equally if not substantially more important to the steroid user as well.
I hope you guys obtained knowledge on why creatine is EXTREMELY beneficial while on cycle. When your IGF levels along with protein synthesis and nitrogen retention increase, it leads to MORE MUSCLE GAINS! Creatine has been around longer than any other supplement for a myriad of reasons, and not only is it my opinion that it’s worth taking on cycle. IT’S DOWN RIGHT FOOLISH NOT TO!!!
Other sources used.
McPherron, AC, AM Lawler, SJ Lee. Regulation of skeletal muscle mass in mice by a new TGF-b superfamily member. Nature 1997, 387:83.
McPherron, AC, SJ Lee. Double muscling in cattle due to mutations in the myostatin gene. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1997, 94:12457
John Hopkins Magazine, June 1997. URL: http://www.jhu.edu./~jhumag/0697/web/science.html
Gonzalez-Cadavid, NF, WE Taylor, K Yarasheski, et al. Organization of the human myostatin gene and expression in healthy and HIV-infected men with muscle wasting. Proc Natl Acad Sci 1998, 95:14938.
UCSD-Nature Molecule Pages
Published online: 30 Jul 2009 | doi:10.1038/mp.a001046.01
- 05-17-2010, 04:14 PM
05-17-2010, 04:19 PM
05-17-2010, 04:39 PM
05-18-2010, 03:02 PM
05-18-2010, 03:37 PM
well that makes sense... its not going to inhibit growth...
05-18-2010, 04:00 PM
05-18-2010, 09:45 PM
05-19-2010, 01:25 AM
Well I thought that orals were pretty harsh on our kidneys and adding creatine to the mix would be unnecessary stress on them. Am I right?
05-19-2010, 06:59 AM
05-19-2010, 12:15 PM
I think creatine is harsh on the kidneys if you dont drink enough water. That's the excuse they use for not letting kids have creatine. Just drink water and you'll be fine.
05-20-2010, 01:52 AM
05-20-2010, 09:43 AM
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