novel gyno treatment

[jjjd]

Here it is.

Friend presented himself with a rather obvious case of glandular gyno. It was easily felt by palpation, and visually quite noticeable, especially from a side view. ( I know the "friend" thing is a cliche, but deal with it).

Having heard of Andractim (topical DHT used for gyno in europe, not available in the USA), decision was made to do a homebrew, legal, OTC type of andractim.

One gram of Methyl-5aa, one gram of 5aa cyp (5aa base would have been preferred, but I have no idea where to get this) were dissolved in Benzyl Alcohol (refer to several articles touting BA to help in local delivery. Note also that glandular tissue is NOT muscle, and thus while old school transdermals have no effect on localized muscle growth, gyno is not muscle).

DMSO (an inelegant albeit extremely effective penetration enhancer) was applied to the areola and surrounding chest area, approximately 1 1/2" in radius from center of areola.

After DMSO was applied, the m-5aa/5aa cyp/ba mixture was applied.

This was done once daily, with every third day taken off, to give the skin a break.

After 2 weeks there has been SIGNIFICANT shrinkage of the gyno. VERY significant. IT is no longer visible at all from the side and is much smaller by palpation.

I realize N=1, but at least for this "N", this WORKS.

side effects: dry chapped areolas, some redness. I am confident a more elegant transdermal might reduce these effects, but I went for simplicity and brute strength vs. the T-gel type stuff.

Also, NO change in diet, supplementation (ALL sorts of supplements - you do the math) were used. I repeat: no nolva, no change in anything else. The only different factor in the equation was the homemade DHT-derivative formula.

For your perusal...

 

[Neuromancer]

Was the gyno pre-existing or from a recent cycle, or a combination of both?

 

[jjjd]

recent (within last 3months) from a continuing cycle he was still on at time of treatment.

 

[Neuromancer]

why did he choose to use 1 gram of methly-5aa and 1 grams of 5aa cyp? Just for more reassurance?

 

[Sldge]

5aa base has terrible solubility, so he was better off with the cyp anyway.

 

[jjjd]

I "designed" the compound for this reason.

both 5-aa cyp and m5aa are DHT related, and andractim is a topical dht. frankly, i don't know how the methylation of 5aa would effect it in regards to treatment of gyno, so i basically hedged and included BOTH DHT related compounds. I certainly can't say which compound was the effective one, or if both were, or if there was a synergistic effect or what? further experimentation would need to be done with 5-aa only, m5aa only and a combo etc. Sledge, are you saying that 5-aa has terrible solubility in BA? I dissolved both the 5aacyp and m5aa in BA with nothing else. regardless, this stuff did (and does) work, or at least seems to.

i realize this is not a controlled experiment, etc. however the gyno was VERY signficant. EASILY visible. now it is simply much much smaller. pretty profound results.

i should also note that i do not sell any of these compounds, nor do i have monetary interest in any way, shape or form with PH's. if somebody does market this, though, i hope they would at least give me props.

i think it sux that andractim is not available in the USA, but maybe this is an alternative.

for those who have access to actual DHT (by prescription of course), i am assuming it would be equally easy to compound a topical from it.

i also don't know to what extent the ba helped with local delivery (vs. say isopropanol) but i chose it based on some reports of its efficacy in this regard.

 

[Neuromancer]

Do you think he would have been just as well off using 2 grams of the cyp?

 

[jjjd]

also should note ( i just reread my post) that my question to sledge was in regards to 5-aa base. i didn't make that clear. i would at leat like to try this with 5-aa base, but i can't find anyone who sells it.

 

[Tahq]

Intresting...what type of dosage would you say was being used per application? The 2g was obviously enough for the two weeks, but was it all used within that period ?

 

[jjjd]

I don't know. It was applied manually, not via spray. basically, enough to cover the area being treated. After 2 weeks, there was about 1/3 of the solution left, so maybe a little more than a gram was applied over 14 days or about average of .085 grams per day or 85 milligrams per day.

interestingly, the DMSO/solution combo causes a little edema for an hour or two after application, which makes it look VERY puffy, however that is a transient effect, and happens pretty much wherever one applies DMSO methinks.

Jimmy, I don't know the answer to your question. Simply put, I hedged. The effect may have been solely due to the cyp, solely due to the m5aa, due to both (with additive effect), due to both (with symbiotic effect), etc. who knows? i do know it work(s)/ed or at least strongly appears to. Maybe it is a huge coincidence, but I think not, especially considering aromatizing compounds were still being used DURING treatment.

Certainly, somebody could experiment with a 5aacyp only version, or a m5aa only version if they want.

of course, you gotta find somebody with gyno first.

 

[DobermanXXL]

About a year ago before my gyno surgery, I bought some andractim online (overpriced too) and used it. I noticed no significant results..but maybe it's a different story with newly formed gyne

 

[Longdog]

jjjd- Would you happen to have before & after pics? This sounds interesting.

 

[phatbody]

Damn, surgery huh? Just out of curiosity how much did that cost you and where did you go to do it? Your local hospital?

 

[jjjd]

No pics, sorry. Frankly, my subject was so disturbed about the gyno, the last thing he wanted to do was pose for pictures!

 

[Sldge]

I have only tried making 5aa base into a suspension (preworkout super boost) and all it did was crash. i also fooled around with 5aa prop for awhile as well, it was a little better but i like a min of 100mg/ml and i couldnt keep it stable at that amount.

it may not be a proble dissolving pure base in DMSO or adding BA to it. since you cant find 5aa base, check 1 fast for 3AA powder, should work as well.

 

[jjjd]

remember, i did not dissolve the 5aa in dmso. i dissolved it in pure BA.

that will dissolve a lot of stuff. would make a painful shot, though!

 

[Sldge]

yeah it sure would. in pure ba you could probably get the base of either one to go. but it should work in dmso also. that is what is used when NMR testing is done.

 

[jjjd]

well, DMSO is sold AS a solvent, so i would think so.

i'd love to see somebody else try this, because i am well aware that a single example is just that.

 

[Sldge]

Yeah, but eventhough it dosent work that well for all compounds. M4OHN didnt do well in it, for ex.

 

[dickwootton]

i have a touch of residing gyno from my last post cycle...I may try a 5aa base in ba and see how it goes it would be nice to see what happens with older gyno and new.
Dick

 

[jjjd]

where did you get 5aa base?

i don't have much confidence this would work with old gyno. i don't have much confidence that anything besides surgery will (but i remain open to the possibility).

otoh, it worked for my friend for new gyno.

keep us updated.

 

[RockMam]

I think this is a great idea! To actually share I have been preparing my own gyno treatment too, but I have thought of using methyl 5aa only bc of the converison to methyl DHT which would be very potent. But now I am really going to add the cyp, it makes more sense to add both. The only thing which is different about mine is it will be injectable and not transdermal. I fell that if u inject into the nips, the gyno would dissapate more easily and faster, but thats just my idea. Nice post bro

 

[ps24eva]

I would like to hear the results on true GLANDULAR (i.e. hard lump) old gyno


Although, its possible that your friend's gyno would have went away on its own...

 

[jjjd]

my friend DEFINITELY had (fwiw) true glandular gyno. HARD lumps easily detected by palpation, and clearly visible. however, it was also new. and the 5-aacyp/m-5aa transdermal clearly worked.

fwiw, i detest transdermals. with both methyls and injectable PH's offering cheap, easy, and legal alternatives to transdermals, i see transdermal as inferior method of PH administration. however... in the case of this gyno experiment, i was interested in seeing the localized results. and transdermal was (imo) the way to go.

that is pretty ballsy ps2, to inject INTO the nipple, there are a lot of structures in that area vs. plain IM injections which just go deep into a muscle belly.

it is also one of the most sensitive areas on the body. iow OUCH!!!

 

[ps24eva]

I didn't say anything about injecting into the nipple. it was Rockmam


I wouldn't inject into the nipple. I've taken histology and I know there is a LOT of stuff up in there

 

[phatbody]

This is interesting stuff. But what is the difference between "New" and "Old" gyno?

Edited: I mean why is "New" gyno easier to treat than "Old" gyno? I mean gyno tissue is gyno tissue right?

 

[Tbird006]

How much BA should I use?

 

[jjjd]

enough to dissolve the powders.

seriously.

 

[beamen28]

i just have puffy nips which are really a kinda ugly, ive tryed lipoderm ultra and no luck. this stuff sounds like it could work though. ill try customs powdered M5aa in a dsmo.

 

[Ghostmaster]

jjjd bump for update...

 

[jjjd]

seemed to work. protocol was followed for about 3 weeks. it did not completely go away, but it is now completely unnoticeable to the eye (was VERY noticeable before), and only a small lump by palpation.

i think the balls to the wall method would be the above mentioned dermal combined with nolva, vitex, and 5-aa cyp.

 

[Forum User X]

This is an old thread but one that I think should be bumped up.

I have pubertal gyno. I was fat and it apparently caught that way. I've been dropping the pounds and while my left pec has been going down at the same rate as the rest of my bodyfat, my right one remains in size. I could feel a mass of what appears to be tissue. Damn. It was one of the reasons why I wanted to cut in the first place.

So, if you see by my age, it has been there a while. Shopping around for surgery has come up anywhere from $3500 to $5000. That is a lot and I'm not even going to mess around with trying to have it covered by insurance.

So there is my backstory. Anyway, I just purchased 100 grams of 3-Alpha powder. I'm going to revive this thread and probably start another one on my "Gyno-B-Gone" experiment. I propose to use 15 grams and mix it with Custom's Transdermal Gel. I haven't bought the gel yet. So that is enough for 7 full fledged 15 gram cycles and one 5 gram. It seems like a lot of DHT. However I don't want to pay thousands for surgery, especially if it is unnecessary.

So my questions are these:

1) Would Custom's T-Gel work? I imagine it would but before I bust out the dough, I want to know.
2) Is 15 grams excessive? If I do the math, 240 ml would be made at 2 ml a pump. With 15 grams of 3-Alpha, that is about 50% availability. Then with 43% conversion to DHT, it comes out to be 26.875 mg of DHT per pump. Is that a lot? Should I reduce it to 12 grams a bottle? 10? That would be 21.5 mg and 17.92 mg of DHT respectively.
3) I was definitely going to run some Nolvadex along side with this. I was thinking about something like Letrozole or Arimidex as well. However after reading about the estrogen bounceback, I am a little hesitant. Would it be fine if I say run 20 mg of Nolva alone with the transdermal or what should I do with Nolvadex + Arimidex/Letrozole? Would adding Vitex even matter? Its cheap enough but it may be useless.
4) My plan is I would use a bottle and apply one pump applied over my chest a day and then take that rest every third day. I would do this until the bottle ran out. Then I'd wait the same amount of time I ran the cycle before starting another one. Is this a decent strategy?

I want to get everything right and then I'll log the results here on this board of course.

 

[Enigma76]

The only thing I would say was maybe add the 3alpha to some absolved instead of the transport matrix. The matrices are designed to transport hormones systemically, and from this board and avant's, it seems that the absolved carrier would work best for 3alpha. This will (hopefully) provide a more localized effect with the 3alpha, especially if you concentrate the application to your nipple area, as well as incorporating the fat-fighting agents of absolved to aid you (7oxo derivative and sesathin).

These fat loss agents coupled with the 3alpha and a nolvadex regimen will hopefully kill whatever tissue has grown.

 

[Forum User X]

Absolved? I heard you could only get about 7 grams of powder in there. I found out the Transport Matrix with Custom's Gel should only have 10 grams so looks like there's plenty of cycles. I will order a bottle of Absolved. I'll read about how much powder of 3-Alpha can get put in there. The extra fat loss aid agents will definitely help as there's still that gyno created fat.

Should I run Tamoxifen at 20 mg? What about the use of Arimidex or Letrozole? I want to get everything set up here so I can start this off right.

I figure that the total expense for this experiment will be $600. Kind of a lot but compared to $5000, it doesn't seem like a lot. Hopefully I can get rid of the gyno or reduce it significantly. I don't care if its all the way gone, at least 3/4 of the way gone is fine enough. Hopefully I won't need all 100 grams of 3-Alpha to get this done.

Thanks for the help.

 

[SJA]

What kind of Tamoxifen are you using (script, powder, research chem)? Dosing is VERY light.
Enigma s correct. You do not want to use a systemic delivery carrier for the 3-alpha.

 

[ersatz]

I'd run tamox at 40mg/day, 30mg if it's a script/nolvadex pills. 100 grams of 3-alpha should be more than sufficient and should probably provide 10+ cycles. I'd run the 3alpha for a month and see what happens. Some of it will probably become systematic so PCT will probably be necessary. I'd continue to run the nolva for at least two weeks after the 3alpha at 30-40mgs. I'm not sure how long you can run nolva so maybe others can answer that. Provided that 8 weeks is safe I'd run at least 40 mg for 6 weeks and then 20mg for the last two. Good luck with the cycle and let us know of the results.

 

[Forum User X]

I'm just using Research Chemical Tamoxifen, in liquid form.

I will do a month's worth of this and then run PCT using Letrozole. I know it reduces Libido but its powerful and can still address the gyno. I'll probably do one month 3-Alpha/Absolved with 40 mg of Tamoxifen along with it daily. Then I'll do one month Letrozole and Vitex PCT. I'm not sure if Vitex will do much but its cheap and anything helps. During the PCT, I'll decrease the Nolva and start up Letrozole. I'll flesh it out more for you as it will be about two weeks until it starts. I just want to order everything and have it in my posession before I start this up.

I'm also going to search how much 3-Alpha can be put in the Absolved solution. I said 7 but I read that somewhere without paying much attention to it. I want to get as much in there as possible. If its at 7 grams, there's 14 cycles right there with 2 grams left over. Thats a lot of cycles. I hope after 14 stabs at it along with Nolvadex, Vitex, and Letrozole, there would be serious progress made.

Thanks for all your help. I will definitely keep this board updated. If I had a digital camera, I'd definitely take progress pictures.

 

[SJA]

Remember that 40 mg of Tamoxifen Citrate only equals 26 mg of Tamoxifen. You need to dose 60mg TC in order to get 40mg. Personally, I would up the dosage to 100mg TC (66mg tamoxifen) and ramp down from there...JMO

Keep us apprised as to how much 3-alpha you can get into the Ab-solved

 

[Forum User X]

I will let everyone know how much 3-Alpha can be put in there. I may email some people at Avant (if they reply) and see how much extra powder I could get in there. I know a few of them post at Bodybuilding.com so I may e-mail them.

I thought the 40 mg Tamoxifen was the solution, not the outcome. So here is my 8 week plan, done daily except for the Absolved, which I'll take a rest day after three days of application:

Week 1-2:
One Pump of Absolved/3-Alpha mix
100 mg Tamoxifen Citrate

Week 3-4:
One pump of Absolved/3-Alpha mix
80 mg Tamoxifen Citrate
2.5 mg Letrozole

Week 5-6:
2400 mg Vitex
60 mg Tamoxifen Citrate
5 mg Letrozole

Week 7-8:
2400 mg Vitex
40 mg Tamoxifen Citrate
7.5 mg Letrozole

Week 9-10:
One pump of Absolved/3-Alpha Mix
1600 mg Vitex
5 mg Letrozole

Week 11-12:
One pump of Absolved/3-Alpha Mix
800 mg Vitex
2.5 mg Letrozole

Week 13-14:
40 mg Tamoxifen

Week 15-16:
26 mg Tamoxifen

That is a four month plan I want to use. The last month is simply PCT for the 3-Alpha that I'm going to use. Anything wrong with this? I understand that my libido goes down with Letrozole. Then I'll probably take a break with this cycle for maybe six weeks (give my body a rest from these chemicals) and start up again.

This is my fleshed out plan. Should I get maybe some Spiro and Minoxidil for hair in case the DHT is a little too powerful and will make me bald? I just want to get everything before I start this.

I checked the prices. I'll get the Letrozole and Tamoxifen from IBE. I think I'll just get Vitex from a Nutrition Store.

Thanks. If it works, this will be quite interesting.

Edit: It appears that I would consume too much Letrozole, which would result in a bounceback. I will get Letrozole and go by one of the servings. Will it be every .5 mg? If so, I will pyramid it by that value every two weeks. I don't want the reoccurance of it.

I also read up on Bromocriptine but I'm not sure if I want to risk getting it from an overseas pharmacy. Is there a chance that its available in research chemical form? Since its also known to provide good fat loss.

 

[max silver]

If I'm correct in my recollection, you should be able to add about another 3 grams or so of powder into your absolved. It really helps to heat the bottle in a hot water bath for awhile, and then slowly add the powder a little bit at a time, being sure to shake vigorously throughout.

 

[max silver]

I have some Xtreme prevent that I'm using right now. Using the technique described above, I was able to easily add 1 gram of 3-alpha powder to the bottle. Once I use this bottle up, I'll try adding more than the previous 1 gram to the second bottle I have on hand. The prevent bottles are quite small, only 2 ounces worth, so I doubt I'd be able to get much more than 1.5-2 grams into solution. Given that the possibility of me getting more 3-alpha powder is practically nil, I'll have to be careful with what remaining supply I do have.

 

[Enigma76]

Max, I have done the same with 1g 3alpha in prevent.

Unfortunately, prevent really fucks my nips up bad. In 3 days of use they get all chapped and scabs start forming. I'm doing the same thing basically as the rest of you right now, but I'm gonna do 3 days on 1 off to help my nips recover.


Also, all the studies I've seen using tamox as a gyno treatment use a constant dose for 2-12 months time. I did alot of research on this and posted a ton of references on this board (I believe) if you want to see. Most dont go above 40mg tamoxifen per day.

 

[max silver]

I tried absolved with 3 alpha once myself as well, but found that absolved irritated my nipples in the same fashion that you mention prevent doing. Have you seen any results from the prevent in the time that you've been using it? I just started myself a few days ago, after a mostly unsuccessful run with adactrim. I used two tubes over the course of 20 days or so, and saw little to no reduction of the lumps under my left areola, and not much in the way of reduction of puffiness that I suffer from as well. At this point I'm more or less resigned to the fact that I'll be having surgery someday down the road, as none of the other treatments I've tried has been successful.

 

[Forum User X]

So I'll change my plan to never make sure that Tamoxifen Citrate goes under 60 mg then. I will search for your Tamoxifen research. I have seen a study where it showed Tamoxifen in 18 months reduced breast tissue size by 56 percent but I didn't catch the dosing used. Raloxifene in that time reduced it by 79%. If only 3 grams of 3-Alpha can be put in Absolved, then this stack (Letrozole, Nolvadex, 3-Alpha, 7-Keto, and Vitex) will last longer than 18 months.

I imagine that this stack will yield very positive results. It sucks Max that Andractim didn't work for you. Maybe you should have ran it longer? I highly doubt that gyno would be removed immediately. If this works (which I'm pretty certain it will), I don't expect it to be gone or almost gone until the third cycle of this plan or 6 months of doing this.

Anyway, I'm going to research a lot and post all of the progress here. I'll probably start a new thread when I start doing this, which will be about two weeks from now.

For now I'm going to use this thread as a way to set up this plan since its a novel treatment still. I just hope it works so people have the opportunity and hope that they don't have to pay out the ass for surgery. This process is expensive but I'd rather spend several hundred getting supplies for this than several thousand for surgery that I may not have even needed.

 

[Enigma76]

Max unfortunately I'm only afew days in myself as well, and am currently coming down with something nasty, so I'll be discontinuing prevent until my immune system gets back on track.

Also, it seems that after application, I might be getting some systemic 3alpha with the prevent even though the carrier is supposed to be local. I used prevent before minus the 3alpha for the same cause (with no avail) but never had the side effect of causing a very weird type of congestion in the back of my throat/sinuses that would leave brownish phlegm in the morning. This never happened prior to the 3alpha w/prevent, and has happened about an hour or two after each application since adding the 3alpha.

 

[max silver]

Sorry to hear that Enigma, that indeed is a weird side effect. I've been fortunate in that Prevent has been side effect free for me thusfar, but I imagine if I continue to use it for awhile, irritation at the very least will crop up. Absolved and lipoderm ultra both cause my midsection to dry up/start "scaling" after prolonged use, and I wouldn't be surprised if Prevent does the same thing.

Could it be that you are allergic to something in Prevent? The congestion sounds like an allergic reaction more than anything else. Would systematic distribution of DHT cause the symptoms you're suffering from? The phlegm/congestion could be a coincidence, but that is odd if you do notice the congestion consistently an hour after Prevent application.

 

[Enigma76]

I hope its not that I'm allergic to DHT (or 3alpha) but its quite possible, as my body's immune system is too strong (allergic to a lot of stuff, always stuffed up, but on the flipside I rarely get really sick[like the flu, I've had it maybe twice in my life] and when I do its gone quick, ie I was done with mono in 2 weeks).

Even if I am allergic to 3alpha or excess DHT, then screw it if it works I dont care.

 

[max silver]

If it is indeed an allergic reaction, perhaps an anti-histamine may be of use in keeping symptoms at bay.

 

[Enigma76]

Updating this. The initial congestion problems have subsided significantly; my body is probably getting used to it by now.

Using 1g 3alpha in about 1.5-1.75oz prevent (used some of it alone before to try and kill the pre-existing gyno). Trying to go 3 days on, 1 day off, but the irritation kills me sometimes. Currently am doing 1 day on 1 off to spare my nipples.

I shoudl note that I did a 2 month nolva regimen back in sept/oct at 30mg a day (30mg liquid tamox cit). I had partial resolution in the right then. Btw, this is puberty induced gyno, never done any PH/AAS.


Currently, my right side is experiencing a great reduction in size. Before, my right vs left was barely noticable to any but me, but now the difference is quite noticable (after using 3alpha in prevent for a week). The 3alpha is helping rid my chest of alot of the fat surrounding the tissue as well, so this might be why its looking so much better. The left is still relatively unaffected unfortunately, while the right I can feel a reduction in lump/mass size drastically (my gyno isnt a lump under the nipple, its a mass under and around it...fairly bad case).


I'm gonna continue this until my prevent runs out, then I'll take some time off and try absolved with 3g of 3alpha.

 

[Forum User X]

That is good news though, any loss is good. I will make another thread of this when I start this stack, which will begin on Tuesday the 11th. That is when all of my stuff will be here.

Perhaps the Prevent is doing a good job of removing the fat created by the gyno? My right side is also bigger than my left side. I expect that for the first cycle, most of it will be fat loss as opposed to gland and tissue loss. I imagine this will happen until the 7-Keto and my cut cycle will reduce the fat to the point where most of the solution will take care of the gyno itself, not the fat it has created for itself.

I remain optimistic about this treatment. Any loss is good. I think its a way to give hope to people who can't afford to pay out thousands of dollars.

I doubt I'll need the 3-Alpha I ordered (I got 100g from NutraPlanet) but for the future, I'm going to use it as a gyno preventative since I'm obviously prone to getting it.

I'm also going to stick to what I posted for the cycle. Still not sure about the Vitex. If I can find it for cheap, I'll get it. If not, then forget it; Nolvadex, Letrozole, 7-Keto, and 3-Alpha should be enough.