anti progesterone?

beamen28

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hey i know that progesterone can led to gyno and other estrogen side effects, however ive heard people say before that nolva doen't work when it comes to blocking it. i was woundering what does?
 
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Well for one that progesterone can led to gyno is a debatable matter in its self. Progesterone is supposed to act on different parts of the breast then parts affected by gyno. The argument is made that fina/deca gyno is a result of the hormone imbalance. I myself got lost in a lot of that debate so here is what I do know:

Nolvadex is the only thing that is known to reduce and reverse gyno in the early stages. Even with fina induced gyno you may be better running high dosage of Nolvadex and worrying about the progesterone second.

There are only a couple of things known to reduce progesterone. Bromocriptine is one. I haven't seen anything yet that proves that it is effective against gyno (There may be, I just haven't seen it yet) Bromocriptine is also famous for its side effects, it has lots of them. B12 is supposed to as well but this is new to me and I don't have anything to say about this except b12 would be a hell of a lot safer then Bromo.
 

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B12 is supposed to as well but this is new to me and I don't have anything to say about this except b12 would be a hell of a lot safer then Bromo.

i think it is B6, but I have not really researched it much. Just take a B-complex to cover it :)


Estrogen is the real gyno culprit.
 
beamen28

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i was thinking about running a cycle with fina in it, and know that progesterone is a common problem with fina. so it would probably be best just to keep nolva on hand. i read somewhere that vitix works to control progesterone, but that stuff is pretty week. i have also heard that winstrol may block the progesterone reseptor and i was thinking about sacking that with fina anyway. what do u guys think?
 

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Vitamin E is one of the best anti-progesterone agents out when mega-dosed.
 
Skye

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i was thinking about running a cycle with fina in it, and know that progesterone is a common problem with fina. so it would probably be best just to keep nolva on hand. i read somewhere that vitix works to control progesterone, but that stuff is pretty week. i have also heard that winstrol may block the progesterone reseptor and i was thinking about sacking that with fina anyway. what do u guys think?
nope that one doesn't work (though winny and fina go great togather). winny does bind to the progesterone sites but only weakly, far too weakly to give the progesterone any real problems
 
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i've had problems w/ prog before from fina, but vitex got rid of it.

Now i stack winny w/ fina usually and take vitex, seems to work rather well for me as i have not had a problem since.
 
beamen28

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i've had problems w/ prog before from fina, but vitex got rid of it.

Now i stack winny w/ fina usually and take vitex, seems to work rather well for me as i have not had a problem since.
how much vitex did you take a day
 
beamen28

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yeah i guess ill just take nolva, vitix, and a **** load of B6. thanks guys
 
JBlaze

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have you had a problem with prog gyno before? or just trying to be cautious?

just watch your dosage on the fina, dont do anything too high espcially your first time around you should get good results off something like 75mg EOD, i cant be sure because i dont know what the rest of your cycle looks like. Also just be careful what it's stacked with and i wouldn't worry too much.

if problems arise, cut back the dosage or stop the fina altogether and hit up the vitex, you'll be fine.

now if you have had previous problems or are prone to it, then disregard everything i've said above and look into getting some bromo or ru-486.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Nolva is best bet for gyno whether its prolactin/progesterone/estrogen. It has positive effects on all of them. Progesterone does not directly cause gyno, it antagonizes the situation when estrogen is present (basically always). I've posted and cited references on this a number of times. A search will reveal this.
 
beamen28

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have you had a problem with prog gyno before? or just trying to be cautious?

just watch your dosage on the fina, dont do anything too high espcially your first time around you should get good results off something like 75mg EOD, i cant be sure because i dont know what the rest of your cycle looks like. Also just be careful what it's stacked with and i wouldn't worry too much.

if problems arise, cut back the dosage or stop the fina altogether and hit up the vitex, you'll be fine.

now if you have had previous problems or are prone to it, then disregard everything i've said above and look into getting some bromo or ru-486.
yeah man im just trying to be cautious, thanks for your advice
 

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vitex is definately the cheapest and safest bet...the bromo can make you sorta spacy. i'm trying the biotest M now to see if it is any diff than standard vitex....don't think it is, but i'll give it another week.

also anyone else notice that prog gyno symptoms seems to get much more pronounced when spending alot of quality time with GF? i think it is the prolactine spikes every climax....dunno ;)
 
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Vitex is NOT the safest bet. Vitex doesn't even effect progesteron levels. It lowers Estrogen levels which in turn lowers progesterone levels but that doesn not remedy the situation. You have to block the receptors responsible for gyno and that is with Nolvadex. It also has a more favorable effect on progesterone and prolactin than Vitex. DO the myths ever end?!?!?!
 
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i think it is B6, but I have not really researched it much. Just take a B-complex to cover it :)


Estrogen is the real gyno culprit.
Right on both counts Bro. I'm not sure that I would put any fath into it though.

DO the myths ever end?!?!?!
Afread not. A lot of people still think winny is a good anti-progesterone. Even after its been debunked a hundred times.
 
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Afread not. A lot of people still think winny is a good anti-progesterone. Even after its been debunked a hundred times.
I was just waiting for some one to post the old winny solution.
 
Skye

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They did, fourth post down. I don't know how this keeps alive. More people then you would believe (well, you prob will :D) keep believing it even after someone proves that it will not work.
 

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Ru486

The drug Ru 486 (mifepristone) is the anti-progesterone used for abortion.

According to my knowledge, it's the only anti-progesterone available right now...but costs a lot.
 

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Gyno caused by progestins usually is complemented by elevated estrogen (so nolva can help), but it can also cause gyno in the absence of elevated estrogen too. Vitex B6, bromo, cabergoline, etc all lower prolactin, not prog. The progestins, fina, deca, anadrol, all act via the prog receptor AND via the prol receptor. It's the elevated prolactin that's the real problem, so accepting a little elevated prog activity but controlling the resulting prol increase is key.
Do NOT use B6 or vitex as a treatment but rather as a preventative.....far more effective. 200mg/day of B6 with a very low dose of nolva should be sufficient in most cases (10mg/day of nolva).

Mifepristone is an antiprogestin, but that's not going to blunt all the effects of the progestins, and it's also expensive and hard to obtain.....not a good choice. using proviron is a nice addition to cycles with progestins just because DHT-like compounds (proviron is 1-methyl DHT) are prog receptor antagonists....again this will just help one angle....B6 is really a good, safe choice, as the dopamine receptor agonists like bromo and cabergoline have sides that are unwanted....moreso w/bromo though.
 

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Ofcourse...

Ofcourse....i forgot about the prolactin receptor..but aren't there just 3 major receptors..as far as aas are concerned?

We have the androgen receptor's...the estrogen receptors..and the progesterone receptors...

Seldom have i heard of the prolactin receptor. Using an anti-progestin would be expensive if u take a branded product...but not if u buy bulk from a chinese source. I checked the price from one of the suppliers..and though they don't supply below 1 kg often....they listed the price of 10grams as $120. Which in my opinion is quite acceptable.

Also with aas there is more activation of progesterone receptor than prolactin. So blocking the prog. receptor would be wiser. If u can get a mix of 6 grams proviron.....5 grams of ru486...and 8 grams tamoxifen citrate..all for around $100.....it's a pretty good pct for ur money.
 

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But it's the elevation in serum prolactin levels that are really the problems.......which are caused by progestins. Elevated prolactin has its own role in development of breast tissue, and it's also the main player in the libido problems with the progestins, as well as the potential psychological problems,,,,,inhibiting dopamine activity.







Ofcourse....i forgot about the prolactin receptor..but aren't there just 3 major receptors..as far as aas are concerned?

We have the androgen receptor's...the estrogen receptors..and the progesterone receptors...

Seldom have i heard of the prolactin receptor. Using an anti-progestin would be expensive if u take a branded product...but not if u buy bulk from a chinese source. I checked the price from one of the suppliers..and though they don't supply below 1 kg often....they listed the price of 10grams as $120. Which in my opinion is quite acceptable.

Also with aas there is more activation of progesterone receptor than prolactin. So blocking the prog. receptor would be wiser. If u can get a mix of 6 grams proviron.....5 grams of ru486...and 8 grams tamoxifen citrate..all for around $100.....it's a pretty good pct for ur money.
 

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Learned something new today...:thumbsup:

I did check up on progesterone/prolactin issue..and yes u r right....prolactin does play a role. And the compounds u mentioned..like vit b6 are all effective in lowering prolactin levels.

Now i wanted to know something.

As you know...most of the 19nor compounds are progestins as well as tren and similar compounds.

Now according to you is Mibolerone a progestin?.......I know tht methyltrienolone is very potent..sinc eit binds as strongly to the pr receptor as the ar. But i don't know about mibolerone.

Thx by the way.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I've posted this in several other threads but thought it relevant here:

A cursory medline search will turn up a number of papers where the relationship between gynecomastia and progesterone is mentioned.

"What is being said is basically that progesterone can only cause or aggravate gyno in the presence of circulating estrogen."

Just a couple of quotes from studies I pulled up on medline:

"Plasma progesterone was raised in 36 of 50 (72%) men with liver disease compared with 20 healthy male control subjects. Plasma progesterone was significantly higher in men with non-alcoholic cirrhosis with gynaecomastia than those without, but no similar relationship was found in men with alcoholic fatty change and alcoholic cirrhosis. Hyperprolactinaemia was found in 14% of men with liver disease but levels were unrelated to the presence of gynaecomastia.. Increased circulating levels of progesterone and prolactin alone do not explain the development of gynaecomastia in patients with liver disease, but progesterone may be an additional factor acting in association with the known disturbances of other sex steroids. (1)

Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism. (2)

This is all we are saying: progesterone/progestins themselves are not capable of causing gyno (study 1), but enhance the action of estrogen, which is typically elevated in hyperthyroidism (study 2).

"True gynecomastia is a condition in which there is an enlargement of the male breast due to an increase in ductal tissue and periductal stroma.[13]"

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...LN3SJ1SStuTa53D|-3360746919023192434/184161393/6/7001/7001/7002/7002/7001/-1

Estrogen receptor knockout mice manifest significantly impaired ductal development, implying that estrogen is key to ductal development, and by definition (see phrase in quotes above) gynecomastia.



(1) Gut. 1982 Apr;23(4):276-9.

Progesterone, prolactin, and gynaecomastia in men with liver disease.

Farthing MJ, Green JR, Edwards CR, Dawson AM.


(2) J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2.

High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.

Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K.
 
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Lack of estrogenic potential of progesterone- or 19-nor-progesterone-derived progestins as opposed to testosterone or 19-nor-testosterone derivatives on endometrial Ishikawa cells.

Botella J, Duranti E, Viader V, Duc I, Delansorne R, Paris J.

Laboratoire Theramex, Preclinical Research and Development Department, Monaco, Monaco.

Estrogen receptors of human endometrial cancer Ishikawa cells were found to be present in moderate amounts (160-200 fmol/mg protein), and to specifically bind moxestrol (R2858) with a very high affinity characterized by a Kd around 60 pM, when measured under equilibrium conditions. The binding specificity respected a decreasing order as follows: estradiol (E2: 100%) > 4-hydroxy-tamoxifen (4OHTAM: 52.7%) > estriol (E3: 5.7%) > estrone (E1: 2.1%) > TAM (0.2%). The induction of alkaline phosphatase activity (APase) used as an estrogen-specific response, confirmed the intrinsic estrogenicity of progestins derived from 19-nor-testosterone (19NT): norethindrone (NOR), norethynodrel and levonorgestrel, at concentrations ranging from 10(-8) to 10(-6) M. The effect of NOR was partially blocked by the antiestrogen 4OHTAM, which was also partially agonistic in this model, but neither by the antiprogestin mifepristone (RU486) nor by the aromatase inhibitor aminoglutethimide. A simulatory effect was also detected at 10(-7) or 10(-6) M with ethindrone, the testosterone- (T) derived progestin homologous to NOR, and with both androgenic parent-compounds, i.e. T and 19NT themselves. In contrast, progesterone (P) derivatives like medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) and chlormadinone acetate (CMA) remained totally inactive, as well as 19-nor-progesterone (19NP) itself or its progestagenic derivatives: ORG 2058 and nomegestrol acetate (NOM). Structure-activity relationships deduced from these studies suggest that it is not the absence of the 19-methyl group which can account for the estrogenic potential of the so-called "19-norprogestins", but rather their steroid structure derived from T in a broad sense (including the 19NT derivatives), as opposed to the non-estrogenic therapeutic progestins derived from P like MPA or CMA, or from 19NP like NOM.
 
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Tamoxifen inhibits prolactin signal transduction in ER - NOG-8 mammary epithelial cells.

Das R, Vonderhaar BK.

Laboratory of Tumor Immunology and Biology, National Cancer Institute, Bethesda, MD 20892-1402, [email protected]

Tamoxifen (TAM), an antiestrogen, also acts as an antilactogen in mammary cells. In the present study we analyze the effect of TAM on the signal transduction pathway for prolactin (Prl). TAM bound specifically to NOG-8, an estrogen receptor-negative mammary cell line. Within 5 min of Prl treatment, raf-1, MEK and MAP kinase were induced 2-3-fold over the control level. TAM completely inhibited this Prl-induced activation of kinases as well as Prl binding and cell growth. These results indicate the potential role of TAM as an antilactogen in Prl responsive systems.

(3)Fertil Steril 1995 Oct;64(4):818-24 Related Articles, Links



Testosterone-induced hyperprolactinaemia in a patient with a disturbance of hypothalamo-pituitary regulation.

Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F.

A case of a patient with hypopituitarism due to a disturbance of hypothalamo-pituitary regulation is presented, who developed high-grade hyperprolactinaemia after the initiation of substitutive therapy with testosterone esthers.The increase in serum Prl was strictly related to testosterone aromatization to oestradiol, since anti-oestrogen compounds were effective in reducing (clomiphene) or abolishing (tamoxifen) the enhanced Prl secretion. The oestrogen effect in raising Prl release was not attributable to a reduction in the dopamine inhibition of Prl-secreting cells, as the dopamine-antagonist domperidone failed to increase Prl serum levels in the same patient. This suggests that, in man, the oestrogen effect in enhancing Prl release is mainly enacted directly on the pituitary lactotrophs rather than exerted through a reduction in the hypothalamic dopamine ..
 

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Tamoxifen inhibits prolactin signal transduction in ER - NOG-8 mammary epithelial cells.

Das R, Vonderhaar BK.

Laboratory of Tumor Immunology and Biology, National Cancer Institute, Bethesda, MD 20892-1402, [email protected]

Tamoxifen (TAM), an antiestrogen, also acts as an antilactogen in mammary cells. In the present study we analyze the effect of TAM on the signal transduction pathway for prolactin (Prl). TAM bound specifically to NOG-8, an estrogen receptor-negative mammary cell line. Within 5 min of Prl treatment, raf-1, MEK and MAP kinase were induced 2-3-fold over the control level. TAM completely inhibited this Prl-induced activation of kinases as well as Prl binding and cell growth. These results indicate the potential role of TAM as an antilactogen in Prl responsive systems.

(3)Fertil Steril 1995 Oct;64(4):818-24 Related Articles, Links
This is excellent, and I had no idea.

I will contest the idea that estrogenic activity must be present (or elevated) to induce gyno. I also say that even if it's just lobualveolar breast growth, it's gyno in my book. Estrogen controls ductal epithelial growth, which causes traditional gyno. However, I don't think writing on your C cup bra "my tits are only caused by overgrowth of alveolar breast tissue" it'll make the gawkers look away just because it's not estrogen induced ductal growth.

You can get gyno using deca only (never recommended). using deca only will lower systemic estrogen levels to below normal physiologic levels because of suppression of endo test production and nandrolone itself doesn't aromatize to any real appreciable degree. So, in these cases, it is just progestin and prolactin being the main players.


Excellent studies though.....I can't believe I've never seen the tamoxifen inhibiting prolactin signaling.....good stuff.

Theoretically then, with a test/progestin cycle (we'll say tren or deca), proviron plus tamoxifen should be all-encompassing
 
Dwight Schrute

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However, I don't think writing on your C cup bra "my tits are only caused by overgrowth of alveolar breast tissue" it'll make the gawkers look away just because it's not estrogen induced ductal growth.

:rofl:



Thats signature material.
 

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ok, i plan on a test/tren cycle in a few months. i have plenty of nolva and i even got the bromo after a recommendation. i was told to take a small, like quarter pill, amount of the bromo to keep the prolactin/prog problems down. i get sore nips on test alone so i have to run nolva anyway throughtout a cycle.

would it just be advisable to just run the nolva, b6 maybe, and hold off on the bromo, due to the sides you all state, and have it as a backup?
 

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test/tren

I think u would be o.k with nolvadex..proviron and some b6 if u like.
 

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I think u would be o.k wivh nolvadex..proviron and some b6 if u like.
has anyone any experience with "dostinex" or its generic form "Cabaser". I've heard that its the ****
for lowering prolactin levels and sorting that out. I understand both deca and especially tren can cause prolactin
induced gyne. I want to run deca and tren together so I'm trying to
gather some information in that area. At 40 - enough of the men I know have titties - I don't want to
join them!
 

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dostinex or bromocriptine are good anti-progsteron. its very intresting to read about the nolva as anti-progesrone, since its mainly used as estrogen receptor blocker. i know some one who ran tren+deca (bad idea) and got bad case of gyno even when using 20mg of nolva ED.!!!
 
Dwight Schrute

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ok, i plan on a test/tren cycle in a few months. i have plenty of nolva and i even got the bromo after a recommendation. i was told to take a small, like quarter pill, amount of the bromo to keep the prolactin/prog problems down. i get sore nips on test alone so i have to run nolva anyway throughtout a cycle.

would it just be advisable to just run the nolva, b6 maybe, and hold off on the bromo, due to the sides you all state, and have it as a backup?
Why B6? Last time I checked the only effect was on lactating women which if far from any hormonal profile a man will experience. Your best best is to run a low dose AI plus a SERM.


Prolactin secretion in the human male is increased by endogenous oestrogens and decreased by exogenous/endogenous androgens.

Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, van Kessel H, Harmsen-Louman W, Wiegel AR.

There is evidence that prolactin may be involved in testicular steroidogenesis, and we have therefore investigated whether there is feedback regulation of androgens/oestrogens on prolactin secretion in the human male. To assess this we have measured basal and TRH-stimulated prolactin levels in: Six eugonadal men before and after 2 weeks' administration of the aromatase inhibitor delta'-testolactone, which led to a fall in oestradiol levels with unchanged levels of testosterone. In these patients, prolactin levels decreased. Six eugonadal subjects before and after 6 weeks' administration of dihydrotestosterone undecanoate. In these subjects, prolactin levels decreased. Six agonadal subjects, tested after 12 weeks' treatment with dihydrotestosterone undecanoate and compared to: Six agonadal subjects who received no sex steroid treatment. Again, it was found that dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased prolactin levels in patients from Group C. Six eugonadal subjects were also studied before and after 6 weeks' administration of the androgen receptor antagonist, spironolactone, and this treatment increased Prl secretion. It is concluded that in the human male, endogenous oestrogens increase prolactin secretion whilst exogenous/endogenous androgens decrease prolactin secretion
 
Dwight Schrute

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has anyone any experience with "dostinex" or its generic form "Cabaser". I've heard that its the ****
for lowering prolactin levels and sorting that out. I understand both deca and especially tren can cause prolactin
induced gyne. I want to run deca and tren together so I'm trying to
gather some information in that area. At 40 - enough of the men I know have titties - I don't want to
join them!
Prolactin does not cause gyno, it only contributes to an existing condition in which estrogen is present.

"Prolactin is another anterior pituitary hormone integral to breast development. Prolactin is not only secreted by the pituitary gland but may be produced in normal mammary tissue epithelial cells and breast tumors. (39, 23). Prolactin stimulates epithelial cell proliferation only in the presence of estrogen and enhances lobulo-alveolar differentiation only with concomitant progesterone."

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

You can take bromo if you feel it actually will help but you should be more concerned about estrogen levels and blocking receptors than prolactin. Androgens in general reduice prolactin (previous study shows).
 

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But again, you're neglecting the cases where gyno occurs in which people are using only deca. This situation will leave an abnormally low systemic estrogen level but eill dramatically elevate prolactin levels.....gyno ensues (of course not always). Prolactin is a big player in the picture. All studies aside, people that formerly saw gyno while using deca and test, who then used B6 at 200 mg/day on a subsequent cycle with the same compounds, had no issues with gyno symptoms.
it's common play to add B6 to all progestin-containing cycles now, and it's made a significant difference in the occurrences of gyno
 

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Also, the endotext section referenced is a bit dated in this subject (although I love ednotext in general). Prolactin contributes to both ductal and alveolar growth and not necessarily is estrogen-dependent. The paper I cited in your gyno post has some good info on prog and prol in breast growth
 
Dwight Schrute

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But again, you're neglecting the cases where gyno occurs in which people are using only deca. This situation will leave an abnormally low systemic estrogen level but eill dramatically elevate prolactin levels.....gyno ensues (of course not always). Prolactin is a big player in the picture. All studies aside, people that formerly saw gyno while using deca and test, who then used B6 at 200 mg/day on a subsequent cycle with the same compounds, had no issues with gyno symptoms.
it's common play to add B6 to all progestin-containing cycles now, and it's made a significant difference in the occurrences of gyno
But Deca (progestins in general) upregulate the ER (because of the drop in T(1) so the amount needed is very small and prolactin and/or progesterone will only make situation worse. Also IGF-1 might be more of a culprit as Tren and Deca show a much more profound effect on increasing hepatic IGF-1 than most other androgens (Tren being the highest). SO when you look at all the theoretical possibilities, prolactin and/or progesterone do not have much of a direct effect in th whole situation and your best best is still Nolva. Estrogen, GH and IGF-1 are more the culprti than anything. We also aren't even taking into account that hyperprolactinemia is often associated with secondary hypogonadism, so in essence those people that think its Deca (or any progestins action) on the PR are probalby mistaken.

As far as B6, I've seen many use it have zero effects and that is concurent with most published data. As for it being common place, I see it being more a myth than anything.


Testosterone inhibits estrogen-induced mammary epithelial proliferation and suppresses estrogen receptor expression
JIAN ZHOU, SIU NG, O. ADESANYA-FAMUIYA, KRISTIN ANDERSON and CAROLYN A. BONDY1
Developmental Endocrinology Branch, NICHD, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA
 

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I don't want to give the wrong impression here. Nolva is a staple of any cycle IMO. There is nothing but an advantage to blocking estrogenic activity at the breast...nolva has also been implicated in reducing localized IGF-1 synthesis, so can therefore be assumed to have yet another indirect effect locally.
As for the B6, most that have "used" it and said it didn't work, have done so in the fashion one would use bromo, as a treatment for developed symptoms. it's far less potent than bromo, so it's a rather poor treatment....as a preventative (ideally with nolva), it's very effective....certainly moreso than not using it.
ideally, proviron, nolva and B6 would be used with a cycle containing a progestin. Even if prolactin turns out to be a weak factor at the breast, it still has an inhibitory role on HPTA and is a dopamine receptor antagonist, which has more global problematic effects....there is no benefit to elevated prolactin, so using a rather benign means to control it is a good idea.



But Deca (progestins in general) upregulate the ER (because of the drop in T(1) so the amount needed is very small and prolactin and/or progesterone will only make situation worse. Also IGF-1 might be more of a culprit as Tren and Deca show a much more profound effect on increasing hepatic IGF-1 than most other androgens (Tren being the highest). SO when you look at all the theoretical possibilities, prolactin and/or progesterone do not have much of a direct effect in th whole situation and your best best is still Nolva. Estrogen, GH and IGF-1 are more the culprti than anything. We also aren't even taking into account that hyperprolactinemia is often associated with secondary hypogonadism, so in essence those people that think its Deca (or any progestins action) on the PR are probalby mistaken.

As far as B6, I've seen many use it have zero effects and that is concurent with most published data. As for it being common place, I see it being more a myth than anything.


Testosterone inhibits estrogen-induced mammary epithelial proliferation and suppresses estrogen receptor expression
JIAN ZHOU, SIU NG, O. ADESANYA-FAMUIYA, KRISTIN ANDERSON and CAROLYN A. BONDY1
Developmental Endocrinology Branch, NICHD, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA
 
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True, increased prolactin would never be good but generally androgens reduce prolactin anyway so it shouldn't be much of a case in most cycles (although there are always exceptions). I agree with your mindset in that preventing problems is always best but I thnk that most of the evidence points to levels not being that much higer than normal and the situation is worsened because of the upregulation of the ER and drop in total T. But I think at this point we're speculating anyway.....a cheap preventitive is alwyas wise in any case.
 

einstein1905

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You bring up a really good point in that androgens help decrease prolactin levels, hence deca only cycles being a horrendous idea, since they provide no significant androgenicity themselves and also suppress most all endogenous androgens at the same time.....the result= an androgen-deprived, hyperprolactinemic environment that's just asking for a number of problems





True, increased prolactin would never be good but generally androgens reduce prolactin anyway so it shouldn't be much of a case in most cycles (although there are always exceptions). I agree with your mindset in that preventing problems is always best but I thnk that most of the evidence points to levels not being that much higer than normal and the situation is worsened because of the upregulation of the ER and drop in total T. But I think at this point we're speculating anyway.....a cheap preventitive is alwyas wise in any case.
 

boomr

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alot of good information....i will run nolva regardless and maybe add the b6....doubt it would hurt anyway and if it helps, great. glad to see the good discussion. if a problem develops, i have the bromo for an emergency.
 

b-boy

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wow this is a damn good thread and its **** like this that keeps me coming back to this site like a crackhead...LOL

anyway bobo: the last couple of weeks before my contest i went against my better judgement and decided to run some fina: i developed gyno last time i ran fina, but when finished i ran a long bout of nolvadex and **** i was amazed, it reduced my gyno down to nothing you can't notice the slightest. anyway im running it right now and **** im so scared im going to puff up, im running letrozle, nolvadex and b6-600mgs a day, well so far so good no water retention or no nipple swelling none at all. so these three seem to work very well for me. this offseason when i run my fatboy cycle then i will attempt to run deca and see if i can get away with it using the above 3 things...
 
Sonicology

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Good thread, lots of valuable information here. Progesterone can only lead to gyno in the presence of estrogens, so as long as your estradiol is under control you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

Surprised no-one has mentioned letrozole yet - it has been shown in medical studies to control progestone receptor activity. It has also been shown to be more effective than tamoxifen for treating estrogen and/or progesterone receptor positive breast cancer (which in the absence of studies on gyno is the next best alternative):

RESULTS: For study biopsy-confirmed ER+ and/or PgR+ cases that received letrozole, 60% responded and 48% underwent successful breast-conserving surgery. The response to tamoxifen was inferior (41%, P =.004), and fewer patients underwent breast conservation (36%, P =.036). Differences in response rates between letrozole and tamoxifen were most marked for tumors that were positive for ErbB-1 and/or ErbB-2 and ER (88% v 21%, P =.0004). CONCLUSION: ER+, ErbB-1+, and/or ErbB-2+ primary breast cancer responded well to letrozole, but responses to tamoxifen were infrequent.
Entrez PubMed

here's another sudy showing letro reducing estradiol and progesterone...

METHODS: Twenty rats were divided into two groups: a control group (C) of ten rats that received vehicle only (0.9% NaCl solution) once daily p.o. and a treatment group (T) of ten animals administered letrozole at a concentration of 1 mg/kg p.o. dissolved in 0.9% NaCl solution once daily during 21 days. RESULTS: An increase in the LH, FSH and testosterone serum concentrations was observed in letrozole-treated rats. Estradiol and progesterone showed a considerable reduction.
Entrez PubMed

given this letro and raloxifene/tamoxifen would still be my first choice for progesterone induced gyno, as it would be with estradiol induced gyno. Prolactin induced gyno is a different beast however...
 

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