My Methyl Opinions

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    My Methyl Opinions


    The following are a few methyl products that I wished to address, this is soley "MY OPINION" and should not be taken as scientific fact, I am nto always right and I encourage constructive criticism. I am not talking about one companies prsucts in particular, but soley the chemical compound.

    Article 1- Methyldienolone


    The problem that I see with everyone who has tried Methyldienolone and gotten little or no results is that their dose is too low. Now I know some people are going to come on here and murder me for saying this but just remember this is my sole opinion and I am not always right, this is just how I see it on this particular issue.

    If we take a look at what substances people are trying to comare M-D to, we can see that these substances are substantially anabolic and very midly androgenic. So what we can infer from those comparisons is that the gains will be "Moderate" and I repeat Moderate as opposed to the quick and often Noticable gains associated with methyl-1test and substances of similar nature.

    When one looks at the fact that methyldienonlone is very midly androgenic and significantly more anabolic than methyl-1test in the assays, we must fighure a way to balance that ratio.
    With a compund such as methyl-1test, we have a highly anabolic but also highly androgenic compound. Now when most people think of an androgenic compound, they think of it as being automatically bad (hairloss, oily skin, etc.). Now this is true in some circumstances as far as side effects go, but remember along with those sides we also have positve effects from the androgenic compounds. DHT which is the main focus of androgenic compunds, has been found, (correct me if I am wrong) to be 3 times as anabolic as testosterone. Along with the anabolic values, androgenic compounds also increase aggressivness, and are very dry compounds, some working as mild anti-estrogens. When most people take a compound that is moderatly to highly androgenic, they usually state that they can "Feel" it working very quickly, usually within a few days. This is due to the DHT related effects.
    
    Now, with compounds that are more anabolic and less androgenic, users often state that the gains are less pronounced and usually they feel the compund isnt working until a week or two into the cycle. When talking about a supplement such as methyldienolone we have to realize that people are expecting the same or similar gains to methyl-1test which is hard to achieve with a low androgenic compound.

    Well, how does this all relate to dosing? If we look at the fact that most users of methyl-1test use around 20mgs a day, with some users going up to 30mgs a day, we need to try and find a dose that will achieve those same results and still be within a "safe" range. Most people who are selling methyldienolone are reccomending 1mg-3mg daily. Now, I personally think that 1mg daily of this substance, from looking at the data and from user feedback, is going to do absolutely nothing. Even, in my opinion 3mgs is still too low for most users, maybe even too low for everyone. I would reccomend a dosing of starting out at 5mg and increasing to somewhere around 10mg. I feel 10mg of methyldienolone would be alot closer to the results people should expect from this compund and should be around what people would expect from 20mg of methyl-1test. In extreme cases some users who have more experience with androgens and may have a higher body weight, could go over 10mgs. My reccomendation is to start out at 5mgs and steadily increase until the user feels the dose is right. I think most will find that 7-10mg is going to be a suffiecient dose.

    I honestly believe that the dosing that I am reccomending is going to achieve the greatest results, while still minimizing the side effects. I do think the issue of progestin realted side effects may increase with the increase in dosage, although I wouldn't be too concerned about it. In my opinion this compound does have some side effect issues, contrary to what some marketers would want you to believe, but I think the benefits outweigh the side effects with this substance. At the doses some manufacturers are suggesting (1-3mg) you probably wont see many side effects, but you probably wont see results either,so what good does that do? In my opinion some manufacturers (and im not reffering to anyone in particular) are marketing this product in the wrong way. Some are exploting the fact that methyldienolone shares a similar structure to the potent steroid trenbolone or methyltrenbolone which is correct in that the molecules look similar in a diagram but the fact that methyldienolone is missing the double bond which methyltren has, creates a very different substance. Remember jsut because a substance "looks similar" does not mean that it will act the same within the body. The only difference between Dianabol and Boldenone is a 17aa-methyl added to the d-bol structure, but these two chemicals act entirely different. I think when more data starts to come in, people will see that this is an inaccurate comparison of the two chemicals and the results will be entirely different.

    I think we need to better understand the methylated prohormones and "prosteroids" that are already out and going to be released. Just taking a manufacturers word for it is not safe in my opinion. I think if we look at the data more closely we can see that many of the methyls (methyl-5aa, methyl-1,4aadiol, methyl-4ad) are being extremly low dosed. I dont know if this is for mere profit or if the research jsut wasnt done before the products were released.

    I will follow up this article with one on each of the methyls currently available, and soon to be released.

    Now that I just typed my ass off for an hour, feel free to tear my statements apart



    Article 2 - Methyl-1,4diol

    This is a follow up article to my previous one on methyldienolone. In this article I will address the methylated prohormone 17a-methyl-1,4-androstadiendiol or methyl-1,4ad.

    A few companies have released or are going to release methyl 1,4adiol. Now I think this compound does have it's uses in certain areas of the cycle or in stacks with other PH or PS. The problem I have with most users and manugactuers of methyl-1,4ad is that the capsules or tablets are dosed too low, and the reccomended dose is again, too low for any measurable results in size or weight gain. Most manufacturers are reccomending doses of 20-40mg per day. This is extremely low because what we have to remember is that methyl-1,4adiol is a methylated "ProHormone", which means it still has to convert to the active steroid compound (methandrostenolone) which is D-Bol. I have seen only one study which places the rate of conversion of 1,4aDIONE at around 11%, which is considerably low. This study was done on the dione version but we can assume that the diol version will ahve a similar rate of conversion of around 10-15%. So if we take the maximum reccomended dose of methyl-1,4adiol, which is 40mg, and we take the high conversion number of 15%, we are left with 6mg of active steroid (dbol). Now I am sure most of you would agree that nobody is going to grow considerably on 6mg of dbol.

    I would reccomend dosing to be on the low end of 150-200mg a day of methyl 1,4adiol and on the higher end of 350-400mg a day. Keep in mind some people use 50+ mgs a day of dbol , so these are not extraordinary numbers when you take the conversion factor into cosideration. I have seen numerous reports that people were taking 20-30-40 mgs of methyl-1,4adiol a day for 3-4 weeks and have seen no results. Now if you were taking Dbol for 3-4 weeks with no results, you would easily say that they were fake. This is why I feel the need to raise the dosage reccomendations, and yes it may cost more, but the benefits may be worth it.

    I have another issue, we constantly tell people never to do a Dbol only cycle. Why? Because the gains are fast, and most is water weight. We all know that with dbol, the gains can disappear just as quick as they came. But many people are saying that they are doing methyl,14adiol only cycles, and no one stops them. Why? Because those same people are the ones making up the dosing regimes and are the ones making a profit off of low dosed products (again, i am referring to no one person or company in particular).

    The bottom line, methyl-1,4adiol is a decent compound, but the doses need to take into consideration the conversion factor and we should neve reccomend m1,4ad only cycles. The same side effects present with Dbol are going to be present with methyl-1,4adiol.


    Article 3- Methyl-4adiol

    This article, like my previous one's, deals with the topic of methylated prohormones, specifically methyl-4androstenediol.

    Methyl-4ad, has been out for awhile now, and many companies are starting to bring it to the forefront. Methyl-4ad like methyl-1test, is even being comercially distributed by a few larger companies. Many websites I have visited often give reccomended dosings for this compund, they sometimes range in the 40mg range. Like I often say, this dosing is jsut too low.

    Methyl-4ad is a methylated prohormone, which means it needs to convert in the active steroid, methyltestosterone. Now, many people who have a slight knoledge on steroids know that methyltest is one of the worst steroids as far as gains and side effects go. Why someone would want to make a precursor to methyl-test is beyond me, but it is out there so I will give some info on it.

    From the literature, and this is still only an estimate, 4ad has a conversion rate of around 15%. So when we look at 40mg of methyl-4ad we are actually only getting 6mg of methyl-test. ^mg of methyl-test is not going to do a damn thing except maybe give you some bloat. Methyl-4ad in my opinion is not worth the time, energy, or money. It is converting to a cheap, and poor oral steroid that is well known for its list of side effects. One major company has recently released a methyl-4ad product which contains 250mg of m-4ad per dose. While this is more on track with the right dose, it is still too low for most people. I would say 500mg+ is needed to see any significant gains. I reccomend that most people stay away from methyl-4ad, and if you do decide to use it, make sure you have a good estrogen formula at hand and get your dosing right.



    I will be working on a few more compounds, including m-5aa, m-4ohn, m-4oht, and a few novel methyls that will prbably hit the market soon.

    -Carl

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    Hey bro, where ya been?

    I think you're ideas/thoughts have merit. As far as the dosing safety though, I would definately like to see some sort of evidence/data that it would indeed be okay to up the dosages accordingly. I understand where you're coming from as well and it's a good discusiion topic on top of that.

    If we could get somebody to run such a dose and take preventative measures as well as blood tests, we could probably move on with the subject safely...
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    That was my biggest concern when writing these articles. I really didnt want to post them and then have soemone run out and chug a bottle of methyl 1 test. Im jsut trying to spark a little debate and get some ideas out there. I just think the reccomended doses are too low.
    Also, while I think safety should come first, I dont think it will be a major problem. When you have peopl using 150-200mg+ of anadrol a day and on top of that going out for drinking binges on friday nights, I think if we control the doses and monitor the side effects, we will be ok.
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    nsruffryder34, do you think its possible the compound Methyl-4ad and maybe even(and i say MAYBE) Methyl-1,4diol are anabolic/androgen without conversion?
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    yes, it is possible, in fact 4ad is known to have anabolic properties of its own, but the significant anabolic activity is coming from the conversion to dbol or methyltest
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsruffryder34
    Well, how does this all relate to dosing? If we look at the fact that most users of methyl-1test use around 20mgs a day, with some users going up to 30mgs a day,

    I have seen only one study which places the rate of conversion of 1,4aDIONE at around 11%, which is considerably low. This study was done on the dione version but we can assume that the diol version will ahve a similar rate of conversion of around 10-15%. -Carl
    Other than these two statements, I agree with most of what you wrote. I think, like with every other supp, dosage given by the manufacturer SHOULD be on the low side, and its up to the consumer to adjust based on their personal physiology. A good example is ephedrine. If the manufacturers recommended dosage was on the high side, all the low tolerance folks would be in deep trouble.

    As for the dosage of M-1T, I would say the average dosage is now 10 mg, based on what I am seeing in recent logs. Too many people reported high incidents of side effects on higher dosages like 20mgs and adjusted the figure down. One benefit of technology, being able to connect with more people.

    On your other statement about diol vs. dione conversion rates, we know that the diol conversion rate is 2 to 3 times that of the dione from the standard prohormone data (ex 4AD). The other issue is that the accepted conversion rate of diones is more like 5%. So assuming a 15% conversion rate for the diol (assuming the methylation doesn't affect the conversion rate.....but what if it does since the methyl keeps the product from being filtered by the liver, and a longer half-life leads to greater conversion), a 40mg dose = 6mg d-bol, again, not a whole bunch like you said. The problem with M1,4 diol is the cost. It is the most expensive M product out there.
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    Hey, im curious, have you ran or had any of your guys run at those dosages? also... do you have a website?
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    It really isnt "that" expensive, its jsut the way the manufactureres are selling it, they could easilty do 50mg caps or tabs and make a very nice profit.
    Also, I dont think all diols convert 3 tiems more than their dione counterparts, this is at best speculation as we have no data to back this up on.
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    its more xpensive then just cost per kg, i went through 3 different samples of M14ADD before i got agood batch. I am checking on the dosing differences of a higher dosing pattern for M14ADD now, so not every company is all about profit. But when i had people test it they were doing well in the 30-40mgs range, also I thought I had read of a 14 study where the conversion of 1,4 was 45%. so that would have a different impact on the 150-200mgs range as well.

    either way it did get me to thinking so we will see how the testing goes.
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    Sledge give me a pm.
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    Bump on this.

    I definately am noticing results from methyl-dien @ 6mg daily, I would say it is fair so far to characterize it as winstrol-like at proper dosing levels. I would like to try this substance at a higher dosage but I do not believe that there is sufficient data on its use and hepatoxicity to feel comfortable going higher than I currently am.

    Given the current price of this substance at 1fast400 however, I believe it is a good buy and would serve well as an adjunct to an injectable, or by itself in a cutting cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps
    its more xpensive then just cost per kg, i went through 3 different samples of M14ADD before i got agood batch. I am checking on the dosing differences of a higher dosing pattern for M14ADD now, so not every company is all about profit. But when i had people test it they were doing well in the 30-40mgs range, also I thought I had read of a 14 study where the conversion of 1,4 was 45%. so that would have a different impact on the 150-200mgs range as well.

    either way it did get me to thinking so we will see how the testing goes.
    Based on my EXPERIENCE with M1,4ADD, I have to agree with Sldge on this point. I used it at 110mg/day as many know, and I loved it. I don't think it's necesary to go as high as 2 to 3 hundred mg, because there is still the factor of unconverted PH having intrinsic actions. Having said all that, I do agree with most everything you said NS. Good read.

    Disclaimer: Anyone thinking about doing these at higher doses, better have done their homework and have all the propper ancilaries on hand BEFORE you start.
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    My point on the expense of M1,4 is this. People aren't seeing much in the way of gains at 30mgs, so it looks like the trend is to go higher, lets say 50mgs provides reasonable results, not M-1T like mind you but reasonable. Lets compare the cost vs. M-1T, M-Dien, and M4-OHN, all of which are superior to M1,4 in my opinion. Since I buy all powders (being a cheap SOB) I'll use those costs. And I'll look at high dosage of the other 3.

    M1,4 ($17/g) 30 days @ 50mgs per day = $25.50

    M-1T ($8/g) 30 days @ 20mgs per day = $4.80

    M-Dien ($30/g) 30 days @ 8mgs per day = $7.20

    M-4OHN ($35/g) 30 days @ 10mgs per day = $10.50

    So these recommendations of 100+ mgs of M1,4 is just a prescription to toss out money to me. I have some M1,4 (5g), and have debated getting more, but M-Dien and M-4OHN are just so much better buys. Now if M1,4 could be used in a stack at low dosages.....well thats probably what I will use the M1,4 for, to wet up a dry cycle a little.
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    very informative.. what is your opinion on stacking of methyls??
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    Methyl-4AD does not need to convert to be active, it is active without conversion.
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    Well, it is active to some extent, 4ad has anabolic properties of its own, but as we can see form people who have used 4adcyp in the 1000's of mgs per week range, its really the conversion to test we are looking for.
    My point being that the reccomended doses of 10-40mg or methyl4ad are just insanely low, Even VPX new product Mad250 uses 250mg of emthyl4ad per dose....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Methyl-4AD does not need to convert to be active, it is active without conversion.

    But its generally weaker than 4AD. The reason it becomes more anabolic (as most methyls) is their metabolites are increased in potency. EVen then M4AD is generally weak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    Based on my EXPERIENCE with M1,4ADD, I have to agree with Sldge on this point. I used it at 110mg/day as many know, and I loved it. I don't think it's necesary to go as high as 2 to 3 hundred mg, because there is still the factor of unconverted PH having intrinsic actions. Having said all that, I do agree with most everything you said NS. Good read.

    Disclaimer: Anyone thinking about doing these at higher doses, better have done their homework and have all the propper ancilaries on hand BEFORE you start.
    Lean, do you think your prior exp with test/tren ( I think you mentioned that before ) probably makes sense for you to start at a higher dosage compared to us to haven't done real injectables yet.
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    Just what I was trying to say bobo, the m4ad itself does have some properties of its own, but the majority of the anabolic properties comes from the conversion to methyl-testosterone and other by products.
    Also, with the conversion we get an extremly estrogenic compound (methylestrogen) jsut fromt eh conversion, then we have methyltest which is one of the worst steroids known to mankind (in terms of sides) . Anyone looking to use this compound should be EXTREMLY carefula dn be aware of the sides.
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    I am still undecided as to what a good starting point for methyl-dien would be. The initial testers who used it were stating good results at doses of 3-5mg per day, and this was with product that was known to be of good quality. With all the rumors and innuendo flying around about the purity of a few of the m-dien products, I kinda think it may be premature to be recommending doses of 10mg per day, at least until more results of the proven batches of the product have trickled out.
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    I am not saying to start off with a dose of 10mg per day.... but I do not want ot see people waste time and money using 1mg a day either.... i Think people should start around 4-5mg a day and work their way up until they feel they ahve got the dose right. i think most will find 7-10mg will suffice. Once again, I am not claiming to be an expert, but from what knowledge I feel i do have, the doses are jsut too low.
    Methyldienolone is a good compound, but to say that 1-3mg a day is a good dose is jsut a flat out lie. I can see why some companies are doing it (and im not saying are are for the money, some people have clearly proved they are not) but if you looka t a bottle and say "Oh, well if I only take 1-3 tabs a day that gives me 30-90days worth" but if they look at a bottl and say "wow, Im only going to get 9-18 days worth?" they might rethink teh purchase....
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    I agree and think the recomended dosage for mdien is too little...what would you recommend for a cycle length or mdien?
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    Good points for certain, but on the flipside of things, manufacturers would be shooting themselves in the foot if they were to purposely recommend their customers to underdose a product by large amounts. There's that much less of the product that they would be selling as opposed to what they could be moving. Most of these methyls are very inexpensive to run, so a few mg a day difference isn't going to mean much in the wallet of the consumer. However, for the vendor of the product, this is multiplied by however many packages of said item are sold.

    And furthermore, if you purposely understate the required dosage for a product, then people simply aren't going ot see any results. And the stated results for bodybuilding products is paramount in order to garner positive word of mouth and subsequent reputation.

    Having said all that, I would agree that 1mg seems like a ridiculously low dose to be starting out on. When on a cycle and assessing results, how long do you feel it's prudent to wait before deciding to up dosages of whatever you happen to be taking?
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    I personally would go with a 4week cycle starting at 4-5mg and working my way up 7-10mg is probably going to be the best range. Remember this isnt methyl-1test and the gains will nto be as pronounced but with the right dose and patience, the gains will come.
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    It depends on the compund, with a chemical such as mehtyl-1test, with the right dose you can usually feeli it working in a few days so you know whether you have the dose down or not, but with m-dien you dont have that.
    If you start at 5mg for a week or so and are seeing little or no results I would say bump it to 7mg and if after another week its the same, you "may" want to bump it to 9-10mg a day, I dont think many will need to go to 10mg a day but some will, and some will need to go over, everyone is different. If you go to 10mg+ a day and see no or little results, there is something seriosuly wrong with the batch....

    Also, many ocmpanies do deliberatly low dose their product for a variety of reasons )such as liabilty etc)... look at 1AD, it says to not exceed 3 caps a day, now how many people are seeing results on 3 caps a day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusG
    Lean, do you think your prior exp with test/tren ( I think you mentioned that before ) probably makes sense for you to start at a higher dosage compared to us to haven't done real injectables yet.
    Slight correction. My Prior AAS experience was Fina/4AD transdermal;But yes, I used to apply it quite liberally. So that was part of my reasoning for a higher dose.
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    bumping this to keep up with it.
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    Lol, no need for a bump when there's two minutes in between posts though...
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    I'm wondering now if the recomendaton of 1mg of m-dien are for users who are just starting out in the gym.
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    Those just starting out in the gym really have no business in using any kind of androgenic substances though...
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    1mg of methyldienolone isnt going to do much for anyone, even though only veterans should be using these compunds, even a beginner proabbly wouldnt see anything on 1mg...its jsut too low.
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    NS...I agree with you on just about every topic you bring up. Just wondering your thoughts on cycle length for some of these compounds? I am not a fan of these bull**** 2-weekers..
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    Im not a fan of 2 week cycles either..... I jsut dont see any evidence that a 2week cycle is long enough to actually build solid muscle. Yes, you will see results but how much is water weight etc..... and not all water weight is lost once the cycle is stopped...
    I would say 4-8 weeks, the same with any 17aa anabolic/androgenic steroid. Many people use 6-8 weeks of dbol, winny etc.... so i would reccomend the same.
    Just make sure to monitor liver values etc....

    I have never been one to err on the side of safety so many people will disagree with me, and Im glad you do because I prbably should take a closer look at safety but this is jsut how I am. I dont recomend 8 week cycles to everyone but a persons choice is a persons choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusG
    I'm wondering now if the recomendaton of 1mg of m-dien are for users who are just starting out in the gym.
    The original recommended dosage came from both Bruce and Sledge, and was just really a discussion from looking at the Vida tables and comparing anabolic ratios with known products. As we know, that's a good place to start but isn't real life. That's why there is some confusion now. To be safe, start low ,test your personal tolerance, and ramp up if you feel the need.

    Propho, I guess your stacking question is directed at me. First, it is the board's policy not to stack methyls, but I think they will allow some discussion. Sledge is doing a good job getting blood tests for different combinations. Most of these can be found at 1fast, and the results so far appear favorable. The only advice I can give is to use that big ugly thing attached to your neck......and no, I'm not talking about Markus Ruhl's traps......if the full dose of product X is 20mgs, and for product Y is 30mgs, don't do a combination totaling 50mgs
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieTrying
    NS...I am not a fan of these bull**** 2-weekers..
    The only Methyl compound I've seen that I would limit to two weeks at a time is M-1T. There are too many logs that state the gains slow down/sides increase starting in week 3 to ignore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skark
    The only Methyl compound I've seen that I would limit to two weeks at a time is M-1T. There are too many logs that state the gains slow down/sides increase starting in week 3 to ignore.
    Tru..but how many of these people actually keep a good percentage of their gains? I see so many people do 2-weekers and complain about losing everything post-cycle. Even if the first 2-weeks were actual muscle gains, I just feel that you have to give the body time to adapt to the new tissue growth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skark
    The original recommended dosage came from both Bruce and Sledge, and was just really a discussion from looking at the Vida tables and comparing anabolic ratios with known products. As we know, that's a good place to start but isn't real life. That's why there is some confusion now. To be safe, start low ,test your personal tolerance, and ramp up if you feel the need.

    ......
    Are you absolutely sure about that? BK said he had a dozen testers incl 2 women (women doing ok at ~0.25mg) and Sledge said he had beta testers (at about the same time Prolangtum was doing his testing) taking blood tests during their cycle. And both were saying 1-3mg was good enough at bb.com.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusG
    I'm wondering now if the recomendaton of 1mg of m-dien are for users who are just starting out in the gym.
    IMHO, I think even for newbies 3 to 4 mg is probably the best place to start. It really is virtually side effect free.
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    If people get good results with Sledge's M-dien, I'm gonna run it at 8mg for 4 weeks. I did Gaspari's at 6mg for 2 weeks with no results. Doing 120mg of M1,4 a day for 4 weeks, so it will be awhile before I can get to that cycle. Hope to hear feedback soon so I know to stock up before the ban.
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    So it would seem that M1T offers the best price/performance ratio??
    M1T also seems to have the harshest side effects, but I believe if you keep the dosage low, you can go longer while lessening the sides.
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