Off-Cycle Letro Cycle

[seancho]

I feel that I may have a very mild case of gyno on my left nip. My right nip seems just fine actually.


I plan on using Letro off-cycle btw, and I'm not sure what type of taper to use.

Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro ; 20mg Nolva
Day 7: 2.0mg Letro ; 20mg Nolva
Day 8: 1.5mg Letro ; 20mg Nolva
Day 9: 1.0mg Letro ; 20mg Nolva
Day 10: .50mg Letro ; 20mg Nolva

After Day 10 I'll use Nolva at 10mgs/day for 5 days, and I'll be off Letro by Day 11.


Sound good?

[seancho]

bump?

[seancho]

bump again

[Libertarian]

Those are really high dosages of Letro. Don't be surprised if your libido is GONE and you feel depressed. Those are symptoms I've noticed while on cycle when I ran Letro a little too high. I've never had a problem with gyno, so my knowledge is limited when it comes to treating it, but I'm thinking you might be able to get by with much lower doses. Maybe someone else will chime in.

[seancho]

ttt

[dumbhick3]

They are high doses of letro, but gyno could be considered a form of breast cancer (in its worst state), so sometimes the high doses are appropriate. The high doses will destroy your sex drive for a bit, but nipples can destroy your sex life, so its a risk/benefit assessment.

I am just finishing up a letro pyramid off cycle for the exact same reason (one annoying nipple-delayed gyno symptoms); let me make the following suggested changes to your cycle.

Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro --> Stay at 2.5mg/day until your symptoms improve or you can't stand the letro anymore (limp ****, achy joints, what have you)
Day 7: 2.0mg Letro
Day 8: 1.5mg Letro
Day 9: 1.0mg Letro
Day 10: .50mg Letro
-->Day 11: .25mg Letro + your SERM
-->Day 12 (or whatever day it is): No Letro + your SERM
-->Continue Day 12 for 2 weeks, tapering the SERM dose after the first week
-->I recommend toremifene instead of nolva; if nolva is all you've got, so be it
-->Week 1: Torem-120mg for 2 days, then 60mg for 5 days (or Nolva-20mg)
-->Week 2: Torem-30mg (or Nolva-10mg)
-->Finished.

After Day 10 I'll use Nolva at 10mgs/day for 5 days, and I'll be off Letro by Day 11.

[Libertarian]

No doubt that getting rid of gyno is important, I agree. I guess I am just a little skeptical that it would take such high doses to get the job done. Then again, a lot of the Letro people are running is likely underdosed.

[dumbhick3]

No doubt that getting rid of gyno is important, I agree. I guess I am just a little skeptical that it would take such high doses to get the job done. Then again, a lot of the Letro people are running is likely underdosed.

It's just as likely to be overdosed or bunk as it is underdosed if you mean the liquid variants. Some element of trust in your product is a requisite for any hypothetical dosing scheme, and no one can say what is in their liquid if they aren't using fractions of Femara tabs unless they get it tested themselves. In fact, ppl using the tabs are probably OD'ing it more than the liquid guys because it is hard to get a .25 or .5mg dose from a small 2.5mg pill (cut it into 10 equal slices?-there are methods, but few ppl bother).

It's possible gyno symptoms could be resolved with lower maximal doses (and I doubt mine is underdosed based on the joint pain and lipid values and vanishing sex drive), but there isn't much out there other than this "pyramid" for letro unfortunately.

What I did find in the clinical pharm section for letro is that while maximal estrogen suppression was achieved with all doses .5mg to 5mg within a few days, the 2.5mg dose versus the .5mg increased the response rate of that group with breast cancer. So .5mg may work for near 100% estrogen suppression IF you respond fully to it at that dose. The response rate for breast cancer goes up significantly at 2.5mg which is what leads me to believe that is why they selected 2.5ed for breast cancer (same 100% suppression but a higher number of responders).

[FatalFunnel]

I don't think 10 days of letro is going to hurt you on the side effects. I ran letro at 2.5mg eod for several weeks... And I didn't notice too much on the side effects department. I also didn't notice much improvement on the gyno either though

[Libertarian]

What I did find in the clinical pharm section for letro is that while maximal estrogen suppression was achieved with all doses .5mg to 5mg within a few days, the 2.5mg dose versus the .5mg increased the response rate of that group with breast cancer. So .5mg may work for near 100% estrogen suppression IF you respond fully to it at that dose. The response rate for breast cancer goes up significantly at 2.5mg which is what leads me to believe that is why they selected 2.5ed for breast cancer (same 100% suppression but a higher number of responders).

Sounds interesting. Male breast cancer patients?

I'm basing my opinion my my personal experience. I use Letro as my on-cycle AI when running aromatizables. Even when I'm running 50mg/day of Dianabol along with Test, if I am not very careful with the Letro dose the side effects hit me hard. Loss of libido, depression, lethargy and sore joints - and I usually only use something like 0.25 E3D. It also seems like the ones that get away with running high dosages are the ones buying their Letro in liquid form from "research chemical" websites (most people on this forum I'd bet). I guess that's what leads me to suspect that maybe the products are underdosed. There is also the possibility that I am just "sensitive" to Letro, but I am definitely not alone in my experience, and others that I've seen report similar experiences are also getting their Letro from reputable UGLs rather than from "research chemical" websites.

Fortunately, given the potency of Letro, even if what most people are using is underdosed it most likely is still getting the job done. Also, if you do experience those side effects, which REALLY suck, they usually seem to subside pretty quick given the relatively short half-life of Letro. That said, having been there, I try VERY hard to never find myself there again.

[dumbhick3]

Sounds interesting. Male breast cancer patients?

I'm basing my opinion my my personal experience. I use Letro as my on-cycle AI when running aromatizables. Even when I'm running 50mg/day of Dianabol along with Test, if I am not very careful with the Letro dose the side effects hit me hard. Loss of libido, depression, lethargy and sore joints - and I usually only use something like 0.25 E3D. It also seems like the ones that get away with running high dosages are the ones buying their Letro in liquid form from "research chemical" websites (most people on this forum I'd bet). I guess that's what leads me to suspect that maybe the products are underdosed. There is also the possibility that I am just "sensitive" to Letro, but I am definitely not alone in my experience, and others that I've seen report similar experiences are also getting their Letro from reputable UGLs rather than from "research chemical" websites.

Fortunately, given the potency of Letro, even if what most people are using is underdosed it most likely is still getting the job done. Also, if you do experience those side effects, which REALLY suck, they usually seem to subside pretty quick given the relatively short half-life of Letro. That said, having been there, I try VERY hard to never find myself there again.

Arimidex is used clinically for male breast cancer and has clinical data on it, so the present discussion isn't too much of a stretch.

Letro has the longest half-life of all the AIs as far as I know. It's half life is 40+ hours (why e3d dosing works well). It has been used in males to boost testosterone with doses as low as .1mg a week. With that said, the sides usually do diminish quickly, though I have read of at least one person who used 2.5mg ed for a few months trying to treat gyno and had libido problems that lasted for a long time after stopping the letro.

I've experienced terribly sore joints at doses as low as .25mg e3d which is my standard on cycle dose too. Side effects become more pronounced as the dose scales up.

"reputable UGLs"-lol, they are no more reputable than the research chemicals for something like letro. Unless you are using brand name Femara tabs (or another countries version of the official RX formulation-so whatever it is called in India IOW) which cost a fortune, you don't know what the hell you have dose-wise unless you get it lab tested yourself.

It is possible that most people use "liquid letro" on this site that use letro, but you also have to bear in mind the fact that ppl in general tend to mega-dose everything nowadays b/c "more is better" to them not necessarily b/c their product is weaker than an equally nebulous UGL variant or Femara proper. This is all just my opinion though.

If you do some googling, you will probably see a recurring post "all you need to know about gyno" or something. An on cycle maintenance dose is much lower than a gyno treatment dose/pyramid, and that post which has been circulated far and wide is (bro-science and all) among the most commonly used letro approaches to gyno treatment. After successful treatment, you can scale back down to maintenance doses. The poster of said thread didn't specify if he was using Femara(R), UGL letro, or research chem letro, so in a sense, I don't think it really matters assuming that whatever you have is relatively close to what it claims to contain.

[bigzach1234]

what is your gyno from.. r u sure its not prolactin related.. if so a diffrent plan of action may be needed.. sometimes people dont even know... u could throw some dostinex in there also... ive heard the combo of letro/caber is a gyno murderer... even if you dont have prog gyno... dostinex will only help with sex drive.. but at least u have all angles covered..