Another Tren Thread

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    Thumbs up Another Tren Thread


    Now don't get nervous just because it says "Another Tren Thread"
    I would just like some feedback from all experienced users that have run a cycle of Tren at different dosages, so come on and post your experiences.
    I'm planning a cycle right before summer myself so I'd appreciate the feedback.

    I was planning my cycle like this:

    X-Tren: 60/90/120/150
    Furazadrol: 0/0/200/200

    My PCT will consist of:

    Primordial Performance's Testosterone Recovery Stack (TRS)
    Clomid 100/75/50/25
    (Lean Xtreme)

    This will be a cutting/hardening cycle btw..
    So what do you guys (that have experience from Tren products) think?
    All feedback, both negative and positive, is welcome

    //CC
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    Tren is a progesterin so you definately need clomid and not Nolva so your PCT looks good. As far as an AI, I dont know if that would be necessary. Does anyone else think an AI is a must with tren?

    Also with tren, you can go 6 weeks safely. I plan doing 6-8 weeks with Bold for 8 weeks starting next month.
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    Not sure if it's absolutely necessary since clomid causes an elevation of FSH and LH therefore natty test production is also elevated.

    But I actually used 6oxo on my tren cycle.
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    Thanks for the reply guys. Regarding the 6-8 weeks I think I'll stick to 4 weeks since it's my first stronger cycle Maybe next time longer..
    Considering the AI ON Cycle I know it isn't necessary but just in case.. Couldn't hurt though & I figuered running Organic Wild Vitex Agnus Castus also to lower progestin and prolactin issues.
    What if I ran Sustain Alpha (instead of an AI (Formex)) while ON Cycle also to help with libido? Would that be a decent idea?

    //CC
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    Have something ready for prolactin. B-6, Vitex, Cabergoline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraker View Post
    Have something ready for prolactin. B-6, Vitex, Cabergoline.
    Would you suggest letrozole. I can get that alot easier than Cabergoline. I have even heard that formestane by CEL is effectve.
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    Not for prolactin though. Tren is known to cause prolactin very easily.
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    You can get p-5-p, vitex, b-6 all for very cheap. Like less than $30 for all of it.
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    Is all those needed or could I go with Vitex & Sustain Alpha (+ Regular B6 maybe). Can't get the other stuff here in Finland
    Formestane shouldn't be a must since Tren doesn't cause direct estrogen problems right, thats why I would go with sustain alpha instead to battle libido problems..

    //CC
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    Sounds exciting bud. I definitely would make sure to have the clomid on hand because you're dealing with a progestin. To play it safe you could run a low dose of Caber or megadose Vitamin B6. I wouldn't recommend doing the Cabergoline if you don't need to though, so I would just megadose some Vitamin B6 through the cycle. (Better safe than sorry, right?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatalFunnel View Post
    Sounds exciting bud. I definitely would make sure to have the clomid on hand because you're dealing with a progestin. To play it safe you could run a low dose of Caber or megadose Vitamin B6. I wouldn't recommend doing the Cabergoline if you don't need to though, so I would just megadose some Vitamin B6 through the cycle. (Better safe than sorry, right?)
    Why do you suggest not using the Caber? It will control the prolactin better than any other product, because that is what it is specificaly designed for. Also, it may help keep his libido from crashing or maybe even improve it.
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    But is Vitex and Formestane good enough? Are those two the next best thing after Cabergoline?

    //CC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraker View Post
    Why do you suggest not using the Caber? It will control the prolactin better than any other product, because that is what it is specificaly designed for. Also, it may help keep his libido from crashing or maybe even improve it.

    You're absolutely right. Caber is the best for controlling prolactin. I just researched a lot on the effects that Dostinex could have on the heart. And Valvular Heart Disease scares the **** out of me.

    Caber should be safe as long as the doses are moderate.

    ** I have taken Dostinex in the past to help with prolactin issues. And it appeared to have helped **
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    I will try to get my hands on the Cabregoline just in case the prolactin issues gets out of hand. First hand I will take Vitex and B-6 to combat the prolactin and Sustain alpha to combat libido issues.

    If those doesn't help I will break out the Cabergoline. Sounds good?

    Also, can anyone answer if I need an AI like Formestane on cycle? Tren problems don't relate to estrogen right?
    And how should I dose the P5P and Vitex while on cycle?

    //CC
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatalFunnel View Post
    I would just megadose some Vitamin B6 through the cycle. (Better safe than sorry, right?)
    How much is mega dosing? I was planning 100mg in morning and at lunch. Should I do more or is that enough?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavtrooper96 View Post
    How much is mega dosing? I was planning 100mg in morning and at lunch. Should I do more or is that enough?
    600mg Vitamin B6/ED is the megadosage most people run for controlling prolactin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraker View Post
    You can get p-5-p, vitex, b-6 all for very cheap. Like less than $30 for all of it.
    I am dosing the B-6 at 600mg/day. What should the vitex be dosed at and do I need the p-5-p if I have the b-6? Same thing right just more bioavailable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraker View Post
    Not for prolactin though. Tren is known to cause prolactin very easily.
    Letrozole will work to prevent and even reverse progesterone gyno as well as estrogenic gyno. Elevated prolactin basically can't cause gyno without some estrogen being present as well (and other cofactors are involved, but no estrogen = no gyno). However, since tren doesn't aromatize, your circulating estrogen will be extremely low if using letro. Very low estrogen + tren = no libido and terrible lipid profile. But it would work to prevent gyno nonetheless (maybe at .25mg e3days), although B6 and P-5-P are safer ways to go. I would keep some letro around in case you develop gyno on or post-cycle though. Letro also has a significant estrogen rebound effect due to its potency so if you use it for any reason, be sure to taper off, and start a 2 week SERM taper the last day that you take letro. Can be a bit of a hassle as you can see.

    Topical formestane would be helpful in preventing gyno while not destroying your libido due to too-low estrogen since it is a weaker, but effective AI (~50% estrogen reduction vs 98%-100% for letro). You'd also get a small to moderate boost in endogenous testosterone (most AIs do this) which could help with the libido and would further help prevent gyno by keeping a better androgen:estrogen ratio.

    I recommend against using cab in general; there are much safer alternatives IMO.

    p-5-p I would dose at 50-100mg/day and it can be combined with your B6 "mega-dose". p-5-p is helpful for some ppl over and/or in addition to just plain b6 b/c not everyone possesses the enzyme (or enough of it) that converts b6 to the more active p-5-p in vivo. p-5-p + l-tyrosine (from protein, supps, etc) should result in increased dopamine synthesis if I am not mistaken. I assume you know that cab is a dopamine agonist.

    Vitex is dosed at anywhere from 460-1500mg/day. I have seen 460 recommended, but I would go for 1000-1500 as low doses of vitex have actually been known to increase rather than decrease prolactin. I don't recommend vitex BTW, but use your own judgment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraker View Post
    Have something ready for prolactin. B-6, Vitex, Cabergoline.
    reps I was going to say that

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    Awesome advice guys! I've never had any gyno symptoms - ever and this will be my first Tren cycle if I go ahead with it.

    So to sum it all up I should:

    Dose Vitamin B6 @ 600mg / day
    P-5-P @ 100mg / day
    Vitex @ 1200mg / day
    Formestane 1dose / day
    Lipid Stabil 3caps / day
    (Cabergoline or Letro on hand)

    This should keep everything under control while on the Tren?
    Should I continue any of these into PCT or just take them during the cycle?

    //CC
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteConny View Post
    Awesome advice guys! I've never had any gyno symptoms - ever and this will be my first Tren cycle if I go ahead with it.

    So to sum it all up I should:

    Dose Vitamin B6 @ 600mg / day
    P-5-P @ 100mg / day
    Vitex @ 1200mg / day
    Formestane 1dose / day
    Lipid Stabil 3caps / day
    (Cabergoline or Letro on hand)

    This should keep everything under control while on the Tren?
    Should I continue any of these into PCT or just take them during the cycle?

    //CC
    Your first tren cycle can be a good time to get your first gyno symptoms, so be vigilant, but not paranoid.

    You can continue the formestane 2 weeks into PCT if desired, but I personally don't see the need to. I would continue all of the rest at least through PCT-that is one of the worst times to get gyno and also a high-risk time for getting it. You could continue lipid stabil beyond pct if your wallet allows you to b/c your lipids will be screwed up a little bit beyond PCT in all likelihood.

    Also, I was looking at your OP and those clomid doses are too high, esp. if you using alonside the TRS. I would do 50/50/25/25 personally. I think PP recommends 50/50/50/50 IFF you are set on using a SERM with the TRS. Some people do 300/300/150/150 (seems idiotic), but to each his own I guess.

    Good luck with your cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbhick3 View Post
    Your first tren cycle can be a good time to get your first gyno symptoms, so be vigilant, but not paranoid.

    You can continue the formestane 2 weeks into PCT if desired, but I personally don't see the need to. I would continue all of the rest at least through PCT-that is one of the worst times to get gyno and also a high-risk time for getting it. You could continue lipid stabil beyond pct if your wallet allows you to b/c your lipids will be screwed up a little bit beyond PCT in all likelihood.

    Also, I was looking at your OP and those clomid doses are too high, esp. if you using alonside the TRS. I would do 50/50/25/25 personally. I think PP recommends 50/50/50/50 IFF you are set on using a SERM with the TRS. Some people do 300/300/150/150 (seems idiotic), but to each his own I guess.

    Good luck with your cycle.
    Thanks for all the great info man, you are teaching me alot here and answering my exact questions
    Regardsing the underlined text, do you mean a SERM is not necessary for a cycle like this? I do try to avoid them so if that is the case then..

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    You want clomid man...Tren is the only thing thats every ****ed me up...shut me down hard...no erection...my mistake...i ****ed up...but clomid brought me back...and my libido was stronger then it was before. i love clomid but 100 mgs is alot...clomid is effective at 50
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    So clomid is recommended as part of the PCT @ 50/50/25/25
    I've read that clomid is your best friend after a Tren cycle

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteConny View Post
    So clomid is recommended as part of the PCT @ 50/50/25/25
    I've read that clomid is your best friend after a Tren cycle

    //CC
    For a 4 week tren cycle at the doses you are using, the TRS would be fine by itself (no SERM is needed). If you feel the need to use a SERM, clomid at 50/50/25/25 would be plenty (torem is better IMO but costs a lot more too). The downside to clomid is its toxicity (ocular, emotional, etc), but some ppl swear by it, and it does what it is supposed to do. Adding the clomid to the TRS will just speed up recovery but either way, you should be recovered after 4 weeks of PCT. You could even just run clomid 50/50/0/0 or 50/25/0/0 and be fine (assuming you are using the TRS also). You have to bear in mind that many ppl who recommend clomid and SERMs in general usually don't combine them with the TRS. In any event, PP still recommends that you have a SERM on hand just in case w.r.t. their TRS and formerly their tren products.

    I should also mention that if you end up deciding to have letro on hand for gyno, you will need to have an appropriate SERM on hand too for the estrogen rebound after you taper off the letro after any gyno symptoms resolve and clomid is NOT a good SERM for gyno purposes. You would need to taper off of letro and onto nolva, torem, or raloxifene; ralox is the best wrt gyno (good luck finding it), followed by nolva (my rec), and then torem (also recommended but not superior to nolva in this respect). The problem with clomid in this context is that it has mixed agonist/antagonist estrogenic activity that is not helpful if gyno occurs.

    It doesn't hurt to keep a stash of SERMs and an AI or two on hand since they serve different purposes and some people even take a combined nolva+clomid approach to PCT (I don't recommend, but some people love it). At a minimum, it wouldn't hurt to have clomid (for tren PCT), nolva (for estrogen rebound following letro and for its superior gyno "anti-progression" effects while the letro does its thing), and letro on hand, and those are all pretty cheap. Toremifene is a nice, less toxic, multi-purpose SERM, but it costs a bit more than the others. It isn't superior to nolva for gyno "mitigation", but it is superior to nolva and at least as good as if not better than clomid at making your balls drop in about 1 week flat during PCT. Someone posted on here and said there nuts were literally aching they were rebounding so fast during week 1! Torem is quickly becoming the preferred SERM on a lot of forums.

    If you want to get a dopamine agonist (don't recommend, but whatever), it seems like some people are starting to prefer pramixeprole over cabergoline due to less serious side effects, and as a bonus pram costs a lot less than cab. I don't have personal experience with either compound, but the literature suggests less toxicity with the pram.
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    Thanx a ton for the information bro! You have helped me out alot!
    I can get raloxifene so did you mean switch to that instead of letro if gyno pops up? And on to Nolva after raloxifene? Or is the nolva only if coming off letro and not needed after ralox?
    Either way I will have clomid, nolva and either letro/ralox on hand for my cycle. That should cover it correct? (Will leave out the caber since not recommended and pricey + potential serious sides)

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    Good post by dumbhick3 (reps).

    There's almost certainly no need for a SERM for this cycle, but having one on-hand wouldn't be a bad idea. Tren and Furazadrol both don't aromatise so there's also no need for an AI, and definitely not one as strong as Letrozole!

    Our recommendation for a dopamine agonist would be Vitex at 400mg/day or my personal favourites are LipoTrophin PM or IGF-2 by Applied Nutriceuticals. Cabergoline is again, probably not warranted, I've used the two products above very successfully on a 1-T Tren/Cynostane cycle with no sides.

    Get in touch mate if you have further questions though
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    Thanks UKStrength! But If i extend my cycle to 6weeks, then I should use a SERM in my PCT, correct?!

    Thanks again for the recommendations, I have learned alot

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    It might be wise to add in a SERM, but it won't necessarily bring your HPTA back into full swing any faster and then you have all the issues surrounding toxicity and further liver stress.

    I know plenty of Tren (PH version) users who've just used the TRS stack (or a similar OTC PCT protocol) and recovered fine. If you've had bloodwork done (which I highly recommend) you'll know for certain.

    I'd personally keep the SERM on hand for emergencies only (Gyno symptoms off cycle) and use the OTC products to bring you back to full health, watch your diet and training volume, get bloods done and recover fast

    You could also run Sustain Alpha in a 2 days on 5 off fashion on-cycle to prevent testicular shutdown, expediting your recovery even faster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    It might be wise to add in a SERM, but it won't necessarily bring your HPTA back into full swing any faster and then you have all the issues surrounding toxicity and further liver stress.

    I know plenty of Tren (PH version) users who've just used the TRS stack (or a similar OTC PCT protocol) and recovered fine. If you've had bloodwork done (which I highly recommend) you'll know for certain.

    I'd personally keep the SERM on hand for emergencies only (Gyno symptoms off cycle) and use the OTC products to bring you back to full health, watch your diet and training volume, get bloods done and recover fast

    You could also run Sustain Alpha in a 2 days on 5 off fashion on-cycle to prevent testicular shutdown, expediting your recovery even faster.
    Will do man, will do I've always had Sustain Alpha in mind while on any cycle actually. Just in case

    //CC
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteConny View Post
    Thanx a ton for the information bro! You have helped me out alot!
    I can get raloxifene so did you mean switch to that instead of letro if gyno pops up? And on to Nolva after raloxifene? Or is the nolva only if coming off letro and not needed after ralox?
    Either way I will have clomid, nolva and either letro/ralox on hand for my cycle. That should cover it correct? (Will leave out the caber since not recommended and pricey + potential serious sides)

    //CC
    This can be kind of confusing, I admit.

    There are basically two approaches to deal with the progesterone gyno symptoms that are sometimes associated with tren and other 19-nor steroids:

    1. Take a dopamine agonist as a preventative throughout the cycle (not sure about during PCP; probably optional but not needed). This can be quite effective, but dopamine agonists aren't for everyone. The RX ones in particular are overused IMO-ppl like the sides such as increased libido and sometimes even hypersexual behavior, but they don't necessarily appreciate the potentially severe risks (like valvulopathy of the heart with cab). Vitex is probably the least side effect prone of them all and is super-cheap (and those products mentioned by UKStrength like IGF-2 fit the bill nicely also).

    2. Use a short course of letrozole IF gyno symptoms appear while on cycle. By eradicating estrogen, you stop gyno symptoms in their tracks and can even reverse full blown gyno if of recent onset. So the letro+SERM approach is more reactive than proactive, but better suited for some than others (I prefer this approach over a dopamine agonist).

    The most common dose protocol I've seen is (by day) .25mg/.5mg/.75mg/1.0mg/1.5mg/2.0mg/2.5mg, stay at the 2.5mg dose until the gyno symptoms fade, stay at the 2.5mg dose another 4-7 days to ensure that no gyno remains, taper down on the letro using the same dosing pattern for tapering up (but in reverse of course), and on the last day of your letro taper, start a SERM (either ralox or nolva or torem, in that order of preference), and run it for two weeks. For instance, if using nolva, week 1 would be 20mg/day and week 2 would be 10mg/day and then you would be done. This SERM use and taper following letrozole therapy is crucial as letro is so potent in reducing estrogen that a significant estrogen rebound will occur when you stop using it (even with the tapering down of the letro). Without a SERM to block the ER with the temporarily increased circulating estrogen, you might just develop gyno or gyno symptoms again.

    The downside to this approach is that driving your estrogen to near-undetectable levels can be deleterious to your health. Your libido will take a hit from the tren alone, but it will take a bigger hit from having near zero estrogen due to AI use. Your lipids will also take a hit b/c estrogen has a protective effect on them. The nice thing is that running the SERM right after and also in PCT will help undo some of that cholesterol damage. Ralox has been less studied in this regard, but torem and nolva both have demonstrated positive effects on cholesterol (torem being less toxic).

    Here are a few links with greater details on this approach and SERM doses and characteristics (note-they won't always agree with each other, but you can decide your course of action); lots of good reads though:

    http://www.supplementboards.com/foru...php?t-338.html
    http://www.steroidology.com/forum/an...yno-letro.html
    http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-t...ro-femara.html
    If You Think You Have Gyno: Click Here
    http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...e-therapy.html

    If you have access, I would keep ralox on hand for use in the above letro+SERM reactive gyno treatment and torem on hand for PCT b/c it is arguably just as effective as clomid in enlarging your nuts quickly and is much less toxic and more multi-purpose. However, you can get by with clomid during a tren PCT given that you don't get any severe side effects (some do, some don't-usually emotional, visual, and similar sides if they occur). Ralox hasn't really "proven" itself in the land of PCT yet b/c it is quite new, but it may work fine also. Nolva is the least desirable SERM for tren PCT due to tren's progestagenic activity.

    Gyno and gyno symptoms off cycle are a slightly different animal. They can be handled using the letro+SERM approach above.

    I've read about using SERMs alone for gyno/gyno symptoms control, with ralox and nolva being the most effective here, but I've read mixed results. Not being an expert, my opinion is that SERMs can be used to stop gyno symptoms in their infancy with some effect. However, letro is a real gyno killer (you could even already have a hard lump and get some results with letro) based on the results many have had with it. The trick is in the dosing. The above dosing protocol is probably overkill IMO, but there aren't any studies to tell you what dose to run for how long for moobs. I've seen studies for Arimidex/anastrozole at typical doses, but they were usually ran for several months. I recommend that if you do have to use an AI, esp. a strong one like letro, you want to minimize the time you spend on it. At 2.5mg/day, in women with breast cancer, bone mineral density decreases in various parts of the body by up to 4 or 5% after a year of treatment. This is also true for Aromasin/exemestane and Arimidex. I don't have the link handy, but of those 3 RX AIs, letrozole has the strongest effect on gyno, followed by Aromasin. Some ppl claim Aromasin is better than letro for reducing "fat pad" type gyno. Arimidex can be used with some effect, but it seems to be the least effective experientially for reversing gyno of all the AIs (better than nothing but there are better options).

    UKStrength:
    I am currently doing my letro thing for OFF-cycle gyno symptoms (puffy, sensitive right nipple-can feel it brushing against my shirt when I walk around, etc). How do you run your SERM (and which one, dose, duration) when you get off-cycle gyno symptoms?

    Thanks
  32. Elite Member
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    there's a good amount of information here "Tren" Designer Information / Write-Up
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    ^^Nice link.
  

  
 

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