TEST-E/ANAVAR(FIRST CYCLE) PLEASE GIVE FEEDBACK!

bigcat23

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Ok...so im 23 years old, its time to get serious, and im looking to do my first cycle....(i have done a few otc prohormones before, but obv, they dont' count)

im 5'10, 190 lbs..12-14% body fat..and im looking to lean down a bit...maybe to 7 or 8% body fat(to get that ripped look)...without losing a ton of size....

i have my diet all planned out...50-55 % carbs...25-30% Protein....15-20% good fats...spread out over 6 meals...2300-2500 calories....gallon of water a day...

ik you guys may say, do the diet first..see how that works, your too young, etc...however..im looking for a bit faster results and want an extra boost and just would like some accurate advice on the following...(let me know what you think...timing, dosage, etc)


Weeks 1-2 - 300 mg of Test Enanthate
Weeks 3-10 - 300 mg of Test Enanthate/60 mg of anavar (do i need to taper up and down with var or no? jw...)

I also plan on taking milk thistle and NAC for liver....2000 mg of fish oil...saw palmetto....30 grams of fiber/day...and doing a body cleanse before and after cycle....not to mention....a creatine based supplement as well (was recommended when on anavar)....(anything else i should throw in)

I have a mild case of gyno as well that i got from using prohomones with improper post cycle (due to lack of research/knowledge, which i will not ever let happen again)...

so i was def. gunna run .25 Arimidex eod to prevent gyno/bloating...and keep the water retention down for the "tight" look...(what are your thoughts?)

soon as the cycle ends i plan on using hcg for 2 weeks (should it be longer?)...then going into Nolvadex 40mg for 2 weeks...then 20mg for 2 weeks...(thinking if i should add Clomid as well?...if so...how much?)...

i plan on starting this february 1st (monday) so it will lead me up until spring break/summer...

being it is currently December 18th...i plan on starting to crack down on the diet (yes, i know it will be tough around holidays, but oh well..) to prep myself and get in the best shape possible before cycle...


please let me know your thoughts and any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated....

thank you
 
pantherdude63

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I cant help much but I have read a lot of posts saying that they test e doesnt do all that much until you get around the 500-600 mg area... I think the var is mild enough you can do whatever you want with it but 60mg seems like a reasonable dosage (correct me if im wrong) also a lot of guys kickstart their test cycles with a ph but idk if this would be the case with you since your running the var... sorry i cant help more
 
gamer2be08

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Take the var for weeks 1-6 or 1-8. That will help kickstart gains as Test-e takes about 4 weeks to kick in. You should really up the test dosage to 500mg per week. No need to taper the test or var. No, 2 weeks of hcg after last inject is good. Your pct looks good. I wouldnt take an AI on cycle, estro is good for building and keeping your immune system up, just have it on hand for the cycle. No need for clomid since you are gonna use hcg, hpta function should be back up quick. Any more help, just pm me.

-Gamer
 
Pirate!

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Lower carbs to max of 40% and raise protein to 40%. Hcg should be used during the cycle, not after. Your pct plan needs an overhaul.
 
CrazyChemist

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No taper.

300mg (or 400mg) of test is not too low but 500mg is more common. I think ~100-200mg displaced natural test so 300mg is about 2x normal, 500mg is about 3x+ normal.

Taper up the adex as the sides on that can be weird and the dose needs to be properly titrated.

If you have gyno right now I would be VERY cautious.

You don't need more than one SERM during PCT, clomid or nolva choose one - i prefer clomid for PCT. Do NOT run hCG during PCT, run it on cycle to keep your testes functioning normally. hCG is suppressive to your HPTA in that it affects the negative feedback loop for LH production.
 

bigcat23

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wait....a bit confused.....ive heard that the HCG needs to be run right after for 2 weeks....then go into nolva?....correct me if im wrong.(but i just wanna make sure im running this PCT to a "T" b/c like i said...i already have a mild case of gyno and def. dont' wanna have a limp ****)
 
jpcf

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I think 300 is a good dose for a first cycle i know that a lot of people wolud disagree but i think you can gain plenty on 300 and have less sides . Hcg 2 week after your last shot, not into pct. pct should be nolva only no hcg. Use only HG products. i think for a first cycle you should use only the test keep it simple, maybe up the test to 350 if you want more gains.
 
CrazyChemist

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wait....a bit confused.....ive heard that the HCG needs to be run right after for 2 weeks....then go into nolva?....correct me if im wrong.(but i just wanna make sure im running this PCT to a "T" b/c like i said...i already have a mild case of gyno and def. dont' wanna have a limp ****)
Here is a post of mine from an old thread:

hCG = human chorionic gonadotropin - a hormone that is most commonly linked with pregnancy in females. hCG levels in a pregnant female are drastically higher than a non-pregnant female. The elevated levels of hCG supplement the natural LH levels in the body produced by the pituitary gland. LH-like compounds (LH and hCG) are necessary to prevent the breakdown of the fetus and uterine lining during pregnancy. Increasing the LH levels in the male causes the testes to make their own testosterone. When using AAS the male body shuts down the production of GnRH (gonadotropin-releasing hormone). hCH mimics LH and your testes produce testosterone. Long-term use of hCG, however, causes the body to indefinitely shutdown LH and thus hCG needs to be used for short periods of time and at the RIGHT time to keep the boys in the game. An endocrinologist, Dr. Simeons', theorized that the hCG also programmed the hypothalamus to catabolize adipose fat tissue only and not break down lean tissue to protect the fetus in pregnant women. He tested his theory by putting obese men on low doses of hCG and a 500 calorie/day diet. The results were incredible. However, it is important to note the hCG does NOT induce ANY fat loss. Rather the hCG spares the muscle tissue during catabolism. So you go catabolic (which is simply the breakdown of complex molecules into simpler ones) but you don't break down muscle.


I personally only run hCG on-cycle only. I stop hCG before my last shot. hCG mimics the body's natural LH, inducing the testes to produce testosterone but cause negative feedback reduction in LH production. My thinking is, by stopping hCG with the last shot, the 2-3 weeks the esters clear the body will start LH production as well.
 
gamer2be08

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You are still technically on cycle for about 2 weeks after last inject, so that is NOT your pct time. HCG can be used for 2 weeks after last inject, then stopped, THEN PCT STARTS.
 
gamer2be08

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And, it may not be necessary, but if you have the funds, it wouldnt hurt to use both clomid and nolva.
 
CrazyChemist

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You are still technically on cycle for about 2 weeks after last inject, so that is NOT your pct time. HCG can be used for 2 weeks after last inject, then stopped, THEN PCT STARTS.
I hear what you are saying but my personal preference is to stop hCG the week of the last shot so that the two weeks the esters are clearing the hCG is clearing also. This way the body's negative feedback loop for LH production is unaffected during PCT. Personal preference and i'm not saying running it during those 2 weeks is necessarily wrong, just not optimal IMHO.

And, it may not be necessary, but if you have the funds, it wouldnt hurt to use both clomid and nolva.
Actually overloading on SERMs is bad for the liver. Running a SERM in excess doesn't help if the receptors are saturated. Also, bounceback estrogen is possible from heavy serm use so an AI should be run post SERM if SERM is used in high concentration. However, that would be possible whether one serm was run in high concnetration or two were run in moderate concentration.
 
UnrealMachine

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my biggest problem is the diet, maybe your body handles carbs better than me but in my experience cutting while eating twice as much carbs as protein simply would not work.
 
bezoe

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Yea, i thought it was a cutting cycle the OP was trying to orchestrate. You wanna be in a caloric deficit... most likely less than 2500 cals if you are 5'10, 190 and 14% bf, your BMR is not that high. I think test @300 a week is fine... youre not trying to put on weight.. you just wanna preserve muscle and be in an anti-catabolic state while cutting calories. Won't speak on anavar- i'm not familiar. And like unreal said, less carbs, more protein.
 
gamer2be08

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I hear what you are saying but my personal preference is to stop hCG the week of the last shot so that the two weeks the esters are clearing the hCG is clearing also. This way the body's negative feedback loop for LH production is unaffected during PCT. Personal preference and i'm not saying running it during those 2 weeks is necessarily wrong, just not optimal IMHO.



Actually overloading on SERMs is bad for the liver. Running a SERM in excess doesn't help if the receptors are saturated. Also, bounceback estrogen is possible from heavy serm use so an AI should be run post SERM if SERM is used in high concentration. However, that would be possible whether one serm was run in high concnetration or two were run in moderate concentration.
I see what your what your saying. I understand nolva is liver toxic and clomid to an extent. Im switching from nolva to torem, which I have heard isnt that harsh on the liver and adding the clomid, especially for 4 weeks shouldnt stress the liver too bad anyways.
 
UnrealMachine

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liver toxicity of serms is soo overstated! Look at how they are dosed by women using them to treat breast cancer, and for how long, and you will see what I mean.
 
Trauma1

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liver toxicity of serms is soo overstated! Look at how they are dosed by women using them to treat breast cancer, and for how long, and you will see what I mean.
I agree that the toxic effects of SERMS is overstated; much of the literature and studies demonstrate it. However, you have to look at the cumulative effects of everything that's involved with a cycle (i.e., compounds used, number of compounds used, dosage, length of cycle, pre-existing health issues, medications used, etc).

The liver is a very resilient organ (which is the only internal organ that can potentially regenerate), but it's not something to take for granted either. This is ultimately why blood work is so vital in monitoring the effects on your body from a baseline state. This can help you and your physician visualize and correct a potential problem before symptoms begin to even manifest.

Prevention is the key to long-term success. :)
 
CrazyChemist

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All very true - all i was sayng is there really was no need to pick up two different SERMs. Nolva and clomid DO have slightly different binding sites on the ER (estrogen receptor) but if you have one in sufficient quantity there is no reason to pick up a second and thinking "the more i take the better" is not necessarily the case. Just saying the OP is straight with nolva if thats what he has. But yes, we all abuse our livers in far worse ways.

The OP defnitely should make sure his diet is in check before starting to maximize results. I like keto diet for a cut. I try to keep cals ~3000 when cutting with carbs <20g/day. Its expense and sickening at times to eat so much protein but the results are damn good in my experience.
 

bigcat23

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Yea, i thought it was a cutting cycle the OP was trying to orchestrate. You wanna be in a caloric deficit... most likely less than 2500 cals if you are 5'10, 190 and 14% bf, your BMR is not that high. I think test @300 a week is fine... youre not trying to put on weight.. you just wanna preserve muscle and be in an anti-catabolic state while cutting calories. Won't speak on anavar- i'm not familiar. And like unreal said, less carbs, more protein.
yes...but ive spoken to people who have majored in exercise phys. at school and anything below 50% carbs is not good cuz you need them for energy...and in regards to protein...your only supposed to have .8-1.5 g/kg of body weight....also...too much protein stores fat...which i do not want....which is why i decided to keep it between 2200-2500 cals....the ratios i have them at ....and doing some cardio 3-4 days a week as well..
 

bigcat23

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and also.....if im running .5 arimidex eod...or .25 ed.....on cycle....do i stop it after cycle....then continue it again after the nolvadex pct to prevent a bad estrogen rebound???.....

and im still confused on the HCG....how much to run....how often per week.....and when exactly in the cycle...like week 6? (10 week cycle)...all the way up to 2 weeks after last inject??
 
CrazyChemist

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yes...but ive spoken to people who have majored in exercise phys. at school and anything below 50% carbs is not good cuz you need them for energy...and in regards to protein...your only supposed to have .8-1.5 g/kg of body weight....also...too much protein stores fat...which i do not want....which is why i decided to keep it between 2200-2500 cals....the ratios i have them at ....and doing some cardio 3-4 days a week as well..
If you dont have neough carbs for energy then ur body uses fat reserves instead. Hence, the point of cutting. If you get too little protein you'll start breaking down muscle.
 
CrazyChemist

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and also.....if im running .5 arimidex eod...or .25 ed.....on cycle....do i stop it after cycle....then continue it again after the nolvadex pct to prevent a bad estrogen rebound???.....

and im still confused on the HCG....how much to run....how often per week.....and when exactly in the cycle...like week 6? (10 week cycle)...all the way up to 2 weeks after last inject??
yes stop the AI and then start aagain after serm to prevent bounce back. Running an AI after the serm is good practice but not everyone does it. Nor does everyone run one on cycle. I like hCG weeks 4-10 for a 10 weeker at 500iu 2x/wk (this is convenient because you only need 1 5000iu bottle). If you want to run it an extra two weeks go for it.
 
bezoe

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yes stop the AI and then start aagain after serm to prevent bounce back. Running an AI after the serm is good practice but not everyone does it. Nor does everyone run one on cycle. I like hCG weeks 4-10 for a 10 weeker at 500iu 2x/wk (this is convenient because you only need 1 5000iu bottle). If you want to run it an extra two weeks go for it.
And dose the AI accordingly. You dont want to suppress too much estro and have rebound when you d/c it. Just use enough to prevent gyno.
 
bezoe

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If you dont have neough carbs for energy then ur body uses fat reserves instead. Hence, the point of cutting. If you get too little protein you'll start breaking down muscle.
Precisely
 

bigcat23

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ok...well can some one message me and tell me where i can get arimidex that comes in .25 mg or .5 mg. tabs...cuz the stuff i found only comes in 1 mg....i can prob. break it in half....but def. would be a task to break it into 4 even pieces to take .25mg if i were to go that route....oooor....does anyone have any positive feedback on whether or not the liquid arimidex form those research sites work or not? (is so....mesg. me and lemme know which one..)


just wanna have everything squared away and perfect before i run all this **** cuz the last thing i wanna do is run into making my ("mild gyno") more worse than it is...or God forbid...more extreme health problems
 
Trauma1

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ok...well can some one message me and tell me where i can get arimidex that comes in .25 mg or .5 mg. tabs...cuz the stuff i found only comes in 1 mg....i can prob. break it in half....but def. would be a task to break it into 4 even pieces to take .25mg if i were to go that route....oooor....does anyone have any positive feedback on whether or not the liquid arimidex form those research sites work or not? (is so....mesg. me and lemme know which one..)


just wanna have everything squared away and perfect before i run all this **** cuz the last thing i wanna do is run into making my ("mild gyno") more worse than it is...or God forbid...more extreme health problems
No source posting, bud; It's against board rules.
 
UnrealMachine

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yes...but ive spoken to people who have majored in exercise phys. at school and anything below 50% carbs is not good cuz you need them for energy...and in regards to protein...your only supposed to have .8-1.5 g/kg of body weight....also...too much protein stores fat...which i do not want....which is why i decided to keep it between 2200-2500 cals....the ratios i have them at ....and doing some cardio 3-4 days a week as well..
Well sounds ketosis would blow their minds and they're just parroting the same old **** i've heard a million times. "People aren't supposed to eat so little carbs and so much protein."

But people aren't supposed to be like... 5'10, 210 pounds, 6% bodyfat... Bodybuilders aren't normal people and don't eat like normal people.

Anyway what crazychemist is true, you deprive your body of carbs and you force it to burn fat for energy. You don't need carbs for energy, that's bull****. I can go all day eating negligible amounts of carbs and my energy levels usually aren't affected enough for me to notice.
As for the protein being stored as fat, well that's the biggest line of ****... You need to hit a certain amount of calories each day, so if you sacrifice protein, you have to eat more carbs of fats. Fat is fat and will be stored the easiest... Carbohydrates will be broken down into sugar and everything that isn't burned will be stored as fat... Protein is broken down into amino acids which are utilized first before being turned into fat and stored, it's the least direct pathway to storage.

Anyway sounds like those dudes don't know **** about what kind of diet a bodybuilder should follow on a cut.
 
CrazyChemist

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Well sounds ketosis would blow their minds and they're just parroting the same old **** i've heard a million times. "People aren't supposed to eat so little carbs and so much protein."

But people aren't supposed to be like... 5'10, 210 pounds, 6% bodyfat... Bodybuilders aren't normal people and don't eat like normal people.

Anyway what crazychemist is true, you deprive your body of carbs and you force it to burn fat for energy. You don't need carbs for energy, that's bull****. I can go all day eating negligible amounts of carbs and my energy levels usually aren't affected enough for me to notice.
As for the protein being stored as fat, well that's the biggest line of ****... You need to hit a certain amount of calories each day, so if you sacrifice protein, you have to eat more carbs of fats. Fat is fat and will be stored the easiest... Carbohydrates will be broken down into sugar and everything that isn't burned will be stored as fat... Protein is broken down into amino acids which are utilized first before being turned into fat and stored, it's the least direct pathway to storage.

Anyway sounds like those dudes don't know **** about what kind of diet a bodybuilder should follow on a cut.
Brilliantly said. And on a personal note, I haven't experienced a loss in energy either when in keto. As a matter of fact, when I carb up I usually get a little sleepy. I will admit I notice a decrease in stregnth when I'm glycogen depleted but as far as focus and mental clarity, keto gets a :bigok: from me. I didn't want to say it either but your friends who are exercise majors need to study up on diets for different bodytypes / goals.
 
jbryand101b

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Well sounds ketosis would blow their minds and they're just parroting the same old **** i've heard a million times. "People aren't supposed to eat so little carbs and so much protein."

But people aren't supposed to be like... 5'10, 210 pounds, 6% bodyfat... Bodybuilders aren't normal people and don't eat like normal people.

Anyway what crazychemist is true, you deprive your body of carbs and you force it to burn fat for energy.(but also the type of exercise/activity you are doing will cause your body to use different sources of energy) You don't need carbs for energy, that's bull****. (but they are the most readily available) I can go all day eating negligible amounts of carbs and my energy levels usually aren't affected enough for me to notice. (me too)
As for the protein being stored as fat, well that's the biggest line of ****... (not really, to a certain extent) You need to hit a certain amount of calories each day, so if you sacrifice protein, you have to eat more carbs of fats. Fat is fat and will be stored the easiest... Carbohydrates will be broken down into sugar (glycogen) and everything that isn't burned will be stored as fat... Protein is broken down into amino acids which are utilized first before being turned into fat and stored, it's the least direct pathway to storage. (actually, after the body uses the amino acid, the disposal of the carbon shell from the acids could be stored as fat)

Anyway sounds like those dudes don't know **** about what kind of diet a bodybuilder should follow on a cut.
I added some stuff in bold U.M.
nutrition for a normal person can become a very complex thing, esp when you start getting into the things you are talking about.

for a body builder, well the truth of it is, experts can not agree on proper nutrition for a body builder, know why? because all the actions of micro/macro nutrient intake are too complex. maybe in the future we'll better have an understanding, but for now, not enough attention is paid to this field.
basically what we have to go off of here is bro science, and the little data we have which is generated either for sedentary people, or athletes like runners, cyclist, olympic lifters. all of which is not body building.

so basically for your diet, you are going to have to take all this data, and advice, and use it to tune your diet to work for you. and that my friend takes time, which most beginner steroid users dont want to take.

for proper diet that will work for you, there is no shortcut method, your going to have to put in the leg work and tune it to you personally.

people disagree also on hcg. i know the experts in the field recomend it to be used during post cycle therapy. minimally though, with enough to shock your testes into being responsive to the l.h. the problem during pct isn't no lh production, it's that the testes have become de sensitized to the effects of l.h.
some experts in the field say to use hcg + clomid + nolva in a specific manner.
other experienced body builders say to use hcg during cycle, or a few weeks before it ends. and use only one, clomid, or nolva.
again, it is going to come down to you finding out which method you prefer, and gets you back to normal the fastest.
i can tell you what research says, and what experienced users say, but, you get the point.
 

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dont overcomplicate this, first switch your protein and carb %'s in diet basically, 40-50% of total cal's from protein and 30-40% total cal's from carbs, your protein was too low (rest from good fats).

250-300 mgs of test e per week for 10 weeks, no ai's unless absolutely necessary, they are not needed by every person with every cycle, weeks 1-6 run about 40-60 mgs of var, if it is good, not much is needed, the reason we see so man y 80+ mgs per day is much is underdosed.

Pct you can run hcg on cycle and until the esters clear, then use a serm, I recommend toremifine. At most add in a little igf the last couple weeks of cycle and first couple weeks of pct.

that is all needed, eat clean, good foods in large enough amounts to accomplish your goals, train extremely hard, and use as small an amount of gear as possible to make the gains you want and that are acheivable.
 

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My cycle looks like this which is similar to yours... Ive done a lot of research and this is what I decided with to drop bf% and trying to keep most of my gains of solid lean mass.

Testosterone E : weeks 1-12 (400mg/wk)
D-Bol: weeks 1-3 (40mg/day)
Avanvar: weeks 8-13 (50mg/day)
Proviron: weeks 6-13 (50mg/day)
HCG: weeks 4-13 (.5cc/twice a week) week 13 (1cc/week)

PCT: (2 weeks after last shot)
Nolvadex: weeks 14&15 (40mg/wk)
Nolvadex: weeks 16&17 (20mg/wk)

HCG must be stopped at least a week before Nolvadex.
 
CrazyChemist

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My cycle looks like this which is similar to yours... Ive done a lot of research and this is what I decided with to drop bf% and trying to keep most of my gains of solid lean mass.

Testosterone E : weeks 1-12 (400mg/wk)
D-Bol: weeks 1-3 (40mg/day)
Avanvar: weeks 8-13 (50mg/day)
Proviron: weeks 6-13 (50mg/day)
HCG: weeks 4-13 (.5cc/twice a week) week 13 (1cc/week)

PCT: (2 weeks after last shot)
Nolvadex: weeks 14&15 (40mg/wk)
Nolvadex: weeks 16&17 (20mg/wk)

HCG must be stopped at least a week before Nolvadex.
yeah i like that. I think the PCT could be a little stronger. Get a cortisol control (lean xtreme) in there and a natural test booster (sustain alpha). I personally run creatine during pct as well as post cycle support.
 

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