Nolvadex or clomid or both ?

[potobori]

Just wondering if i should use these both for a pct or is nolvadex+post cycle support by AI fine ?

 

[texastweeter]

i use tamox. cit. primarily, almost exclusively, bu it depends on what compound/compounds your coming off of and if you were running it during along with b6 to fight gyno.

 

[liftin4fun]

What were you running? In my opinion it depends on what you run. When I ran a Bold/Phera/Superdrol cycle I ran both and recovered fine.

 

[CrazyChemist]

They are both SERMs, run one or the other. I prefer nolva on-cycle and clomid for pct but thats just habit - no studies to mention I dont think. What are you planning on taking? Your PCT needs more than just a serm in most cases.

 

[B5150]

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/william_llewellyn/testosterone

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/william_llewellyn/test_recovery

 

[indianballer]

Taking both is actually probably the best way to ensure a quick recovery. I've personally always gone with one or the other and an AI, but I think I might try a nolva/clomid combination for my current cycle's PCT because I'm only 2 1/2 weeks in and shut down is already setting in. Many many many knowledgeable people use both. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, so administering it (esp in higher doses...100-150) tricks your HPTA into QUICKLY producing more LH and FSH. Nolva will accomplish this also but it is best served to keep estrogen from binding in the breast tissue.

Best possible PCT (IMO) for even longer 12 week test cycles

Clomid: 150 for 3 days, 100 for 5 days, and 50 til you are full recovered
Nolva: 40, 20, 20, 20
Aromasin (or any of the other milder AI's): 20-25 mg's all the way through and like 2 to 3 weeks past the cessation of the SERMS

then if you want to add in cortisol control or w/e that's completely up to you..but I feel the above PCT is the best way to get test back up rapidly and without any E rebound.

 

[indianballer]

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/william_llewellyn/testosterone

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/william_llewellyn/test_recovery

Interesting reads! I've always heard that HcG in PCT is completely counter productive because it is suppressive itself. I guess there's a million different theories on recovery out there. All I know is that the nolva/aromasin PCT had my test back up to almost 800 when i had bloodwork done about a week after my PCT ended. 800 is nothing to brag about really but considering I was in the 200's as a 17 year old, I was pleasantly surprised to say the least.

 

[CrazyChemist]

Taking both is actually probably the best way to ensure a quick recovery. I've personally always gone with one or the other and an AI, but I think I might try a nolva/clomid combination for my current cycle's PCT because I'm only 2 1/2 weeks in and shut down is already setting in. Many many many knowledgeable people use both. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, so administering it (esp in higher doses...100-150) tricks your HPTA into QUICKLY producing more LH and FSH. Nolva will accomplish this also but it is best served to keep estrogen from binding in the breast tissue.

Best possible PCT (IMO) for even longer 12 week test cycles

Clomid: 150 for 3 days, 100 for 5 days, and 50 til you are full recovered
Nolva: 40, 20, 20, 20
Aromasin (or any of the other milder AI's): 20-25 mg's all the way through and like 2 to 3 weeks past the cessation of the SERMS

then if you want to add in cortisol control or w/e that's completely up to you..but I feel the above PCT is the best way to get test back up rapidly and without any E rebound.

Running clomid and nolva is unnecessarily stressful on the liver. Experienced users do not use both. How do you know you are shutdown 2 1/2 weeks into your cycle presently? Did you get bloodwork?

 

[indianballer]

No i'm going by testicular size...would you like a picture?

 

[indianballer]

and how do you know experienced users don't run both? I only know one bodybuilder who has his pro card and I take whatever I can get him to tell me to heart. He runs 20 mg's nolva throughout every cycle and runs clomid and nolva as his PCT every time. I know two SERMS seems redundant but the more I read the more I understand the differences in their mechanisms of action. It is more stress on the liver but it is not unnecissary, especially for people who are prone to estrogenic sides and rebound.

 

[jbryand101b]

William Llewellyn's ANABOLICS, 9th ed.

below is the published pct program, proven to restore full hormonal balance/production in 45 days from a 12 week cycle of "supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks.", from anabolic 09, recomended by doctors at the "progran for wellness restoration"

Protocols: Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) is taken at 2500lU every other day for 16 days. Clomiphene citrate 50 mg is taken twice per day for 30 days.Tamoxifen citrate is taken 20 mg per day for 45 days.

 

[indianballer]

that looks like a good PCT but def overkill for these kinds of cycles...maybe a 12 week test E/EQ with Dbol for 6 weeks to start and phera for 6 at the end...one day....

 

[Bigchourico]

Just wondering if i should use these both for a pct or is nolvadex+post cycle support by AI fine ?

Try Toremifene and you'll never go back!

 

[CrazyChemist]

No i'm going by testicular size...would you like a picture?

Please no picture. We should change your name to indiansmallballer. Are you running hCG? I only know one pro (who I train with) as well. However, all the reputable literature I've read as well as the more respected users on this forum run one or the other. Please check out these two references:

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

Both references explicitly state that layman regard of these two compounds as mechanistically dissimilar is a myth. If you have journal literature supporting the use of both or comparing the mechanisms of action of both I'd love to read it and learn something new.

William Llewellyn's ANABOLICS, 9th ed.

below is the published pct program, proven to restore full hormonal balance/production in 45 days from a 12 week cycle of "supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks.", from anabolic 09, recomended by doctors at the "progran for wellness restoration"

Protocols: Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) is taken at 2500lU every other day for 16 days. Clomiphene citrate 50 mg is taken twice per day for 30 days.Tamoxifen citrate is taken 20 mg per day for 45 days.

No disrespect to Llewellyn but I would never run that pct. The limited reputable literature I have read hCG is only effective up to about 1000iu E2D and doses above 500iu E3D are overkill. Furthermore hCG has been shown to be suppressive to the body's natural LH production. Thus, hCG should be run on-cycle to prevent testicular atrophy (like indiansmallballer) rather than during pct.

See this: June 25, 1978 The Journal of Biological Chemistry, 253, 4297-4304.

I'm not a total nerd, just a chemical engineer. So it is my job to read all this literature. :thumbsup:

 

[jbryand101b]

Please no picture. We should change your name to indiansmallballer. Are you running hCG? I only know one pro (who I train with) as well. However, all the reputable literature I've read as well as the more respected users on this forum run one or the other. Please check out these two references:

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

Both references explicitly state that layman regard of these two compounds as mechanistically dissimilar is a myth. If you have journal literature supporting the use of both or comparing the mechanisms of action of both I'd love to read it and learn something new.





No disrespect to Llewellyn but I would never run that pct. The limited reputable literature I have read hCG is only effective up to about 1000iu E2D and doses above 500iu E3D are overkill. Furthermore hCG has been shown to be suppressive to the body's natural LH production. Thus, hCG should be run on-cycle to prevent testicular atrophy (like indiansmallballer) rather than during pct.

See this: June 25, 1978 The Journal of Biological Chemistry, 253, 4297-4304.

I'm not a total nerd, just a chemical engineer. So it is my job to read all this literature. :thumbsup:

i wouldn't think he'd take it as disrespect. this is just the pct listed as to what they use in the hormone fixer upper clinics. i forget the name. but it's in anabolics 09. he has the diagrams, let me know if you'd like to read it. it's too much to put in here. but it's good enough for the docs. who have a pretty good success rate getting men's t production back, even after years of steroid abuse.
im sure you can get by with less though. i'll send ya the stuff he talks about, unless you got it.

 

[CrazyChemist]

i wouldn't think he'd take it as disrespect. this is just the pct listed as to what they use in the hormone fixer upper clinics. i forget the name. but it's in anabolics 09. he has the diagrams, let me know if you'd like to read it. it's too much to put in here. but it's good enough for the docs. who have a pretty good success rate getting men's t production back, even after years of steroid abuse.
im sure you can get by with less though. i'll send ya the stuff he talks about, unless you got it.

Reps.

 

[spezzy]

Try Toremifene and you'll never go back!

Agreed, ran clomid and nolva before. I like torem alot better. I just finished my PCT, testicle size was back 80% after only 3 days dosing at 120mg per day. By the middle of week 2 I was back to normal size, if not a little bit heftier. Clomid and nolva do not seem as cost efficient as torem either. Plus the torem from ID actually tastes pretty good. :bigok:
All comes down to matter of preference, but I definitely think more people should be giving toremifene a shot.

 

[Bigchourico]

Agreed, ran clomid and nolva before. I like torem alot better. I just finished my PCT, testicle size was back 80% after only 3 days dosing at 120mg per day. By the middle of week 2 I was back to normal size, if not a little bit heftier. Clomid and nolva do not seem as cost efficient as torem either. Plus the torem from ID actually tastes pretty good. :bigok:
All comes down to matter of preference, but I definitely think more people should be giving toremifene a shot.

Yes I pretty much have the same story,I tried all the SERMS and they all worked to a certain degree but Toremifene just blew them all away as far as bringing the boys back and feeling great during PCT. By day 3 my testicle size is 100%