Pulsing M-drol

[epilogue]

I want to do a pulse of M-drol, however, I'm undecided on what method to use. I currently workout 5-6 days a week, and like doing so. 3-4x a week pulsing doesn't sound that appealing for that reason. A 2 week on 2 off does, yet I can't find much information about such a pulse..

Has anyone had success with it? And on the two weeks off should I be taking anything? Also, what should I dose it at?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[CrazyChemist]

I dont understand pulsing like that. To me 2 weeks on, followed by 2 weeks off for an oral with an 8 hour half life sounds like you are asking for gyno. How long were you going to run the pulse for? Why not just run it regularly?

 

[epilogue]

The whole idea for me to pulse it is to gain it slower and keep more of what I gain. It was my understanding there would be less sides if you ran it this way, as stated in Dr. D's post. If I can't find a pulse that fits my training split I suppose I'll run it straight.. I'm not trying to avoid a PCT, just trying to get more out of my cycle.

 

[Liftingstud]

2wks on and 2 wks off with sd is plain stupid! Most people only run it for 3 wks! You will probably have shutdown setting in or will be shutdown but the end if ur second wk. Then u want to go off for 2 wks with not pct LOL!!!

Who said u can't pulse mwf and workout 5x a wk? Look at your lagging body parts. What could you bring up? Then place those bodyparts on the days u take sd and your better bodyparts on the off days. Maybe this will give you the extra boost to bring up some of those lagging parts.

 

[rckvl7]

2wks on and 2 wks off with sd is plain stupid! Most people only run it for 3 wks! You will probably have shutdown setting in or will be shutdown but the end if ur second wk. Then u want to go off for 2 wks with not pct LOL!!!

Who said u can't pulse mwf and workout 5x a wk? Look at your lagging body parts. What could you bring up? Then place those bodyparts on the days u take sd and your better bodyparts on the off days. Maybe this will give you the extra boost to bring up some of those lagging parts.

Good post. :bigok:

 

[GeekPoop]

Your PCT and how fast you RECOVER will determine the gains you KEEP, not how you run a cycle...

 

[Liftingstud]

Your PCT and how fast you RECOVER will determine the gains you KEEP, not how you run a cycle...

I really beg to differ with you. Very rapid gains in strength and weight are very hard to keep on short cycles even with the best pct. It is a lot easier to maintain slower consistant gains. Or making rapid gains at the beginning of a cycle and using a second compound to help give the body time to adjust (like my phera cycle with sd kickstart) also helps. So the cycle I run does influence the gains you can keep.

 

[Libertarian]

If you want more information of 2-on/2-off, shoot me a PM. A lot of people say it's a stupid idea, but they've never ran it. Everyone I've seen who has run 2-on/2-off cycles say they love it. Recovery is extremely quick and gains are nice for the amount of time so long as you do it properly. I've pretty much given up discussing the 2-on/2-off around here because people are so closed minded about it and like to talk as if they know anything about it when they actually don't know sh*t. It's discussed quite a bit in the AAS section over at tnation, where there are handful of extremely knowledgeable regulars over there - each of which probably has more AAS knowledge than everyone here combined and multiplied.

I am running a series of 2-on/2-off in about 6 weeks. I won't be running only SD, but if I were running a solo SD cycle, I'd still want to try 2-on/2-off.

 

[GeekPoop]

I really beg to differ with you. Very rapid gains in strength and weight are very hard to keep on short cycles even with the best pct. It is a lot easier to maintain slower consistant gains. Or making rapid gains at the beginning of a cycle and using a second compound to help give the body time to adjust (like my phera cycle with sd kickstart) also helps. So the cycle I run does influence the gains you can keep.

you can run wahtever cycle you want at wahtever doses. If your pct is half ass, youre gonna lose some gains.

 

[mark118]

if you're working out 5-6x/week i'd go for either a straight cycle, or pulse 3x/week on your weakest days

 

[CrazyChemist]

If you want more information of 2-on/2-off, shoot me a PM. A lot of people say it's a stupid idea, but they've never ran it. Everyone I've seen who has run 2-on/2-off cycles say they love it. Recovery is extremely quick and gains are nice for the amount of time so long as you do it properly. I've pretty much given up discussing the 2-on/2-off around here because people are so closed minded about it and like to talk as if they know anything about it when they actually don't know sh*t. It's discussed quite a bit in the AAS section over at tnation, where there are handful of extremely knowledgeable regulars over there - each of which probably has more AAS knowledge than everyone here combined and multiplied.

I am running a series of 2-on/2-off in about 6 weeks. I won't be running only SD, but if I were running a solo SD cycle, I'd still want to try 2-on/2-off.

Bro, do you realize that in almost every thread you come off really aggressive and standoffish? Why so harsh? Can't you just say, "I respectfully disagree" rather than "I've pretty much given up discussing the 2-on/2-off around here because people are so closed minded about it....." blah blah blah. I'm sure you're going to go off on me now but I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just pointing out your wisdom would probably be better received if it was a bit more friendly.

Anyway, how many weeks do you do this 2-on/2-off? You go 2-on/2-off for a month? 6 weeks?

 

[Liftingstud]

Lib please then enlighten me on how u can take sd for 2 wk on 2 wk off pulse on sd when most sd cycles are run for 3 wks and a max of 4 and people often notice suppression fairly quickly on sd? It seems 2 wk on an ed dosing with sd is too much. And you feel u can throw other anabolics in with sd also?!?!

 

[Liftingstud]

you can run wahtever cycle you want at wahtever doses. If your pct is half ass, youre gonna lose some gains.

Okay that's a duhh... But that's not what u orginally said. You said pct determines the amount if gains u keep not the cycle. So I had to disagree with that post because the cycle dose have an effect. But yes a crappy pct will definately affect the gains u maintain.

 

[GeekPoop]

Okay that's a duhh... But that's not what u orginally said. You said pct determines the amount if gains u keep not the cycle. So I had to disagree with that post because the cycle dose have an effect. But yes a crappy pct will definately affect the gains u maintain.

Hmm, well Im gonna have to say it differs by the indiviudal. The ORIGNAL trenadrol not that new crap, I ran and strenght was nice. It was like 10lbs to major lifts every week, I kept all my strength.

oh well diff strokes for diff folks:yup:

 

[Libertarian]

Bro, do you realize that in almost every thread you come off really aggressive and standoffish? Why so harsh? Can't you just say, "I respectfully disagree" rather than "I've pretty much given up discussing the 2-on/2-off around here because people are so closed minded about it....." blah blah blah. I'm sure you're going to go off on me now but I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just pointing out your wisdom would probably be better received if it was a bit more friendly.

Anyway, how many weeks do you do this 2-on/2-off? You go 2-on/2-off for a month? 6 weeks?

Actually when I first started posting about the 2-week protocol (not just on this forum, but others as well) I tried VERY hard to have an intelligent discussion about it, but EVERY time, and I really do mean EVERY time people who think they know it all dismiss it based on information or reasoning that is just plain wrong. Furthermore, very few people (maybe one or two so far) of all the people who like to criticize it, know ANYTHING at all about it in the first place and are just making presumptions based on their own faulty reasoning. Very few people have actually taken the time to research or even ask what the pros and cons are. They'd much rather parrot stock phrases that they've seen repeated time and time again without even possessing the knowledge to back any of it up. I mean seriously, some people talk like they're friggin' endocrinologists when in reality all they know is what they've read posted on places like this.

And of course shutdown will occur in 2 weeks. I thought that was pretty much a given, I mean come on. But if you know ANYTHING about the 2-week protocol, you would know that recovery is RAPID compared to cycles that are even a little bit longer (such as 3 weeks). That is the WHOLE POINT of the 2-week cycle, preserving the opportunity to recover almost immediately. No sh*t, you could make more gains on a longer cycle, but your recovery period will be MUCH longer as well. That's why, for some people, the 2-weeker makes for a nice trade off. I'm not even going to talk about the HPTA and what is occurring to allow for rapid recovery, I've done it before and nobody pays attention anyway.

The only reason I even brought up the 2-week protocol on this forum is because compared to other forums, folks here seem pretty open minded about unorthodox, innovative ways to to go about AAS use. Other forums are stuck in old ways, and refuse to consider anything different than what they've been doing for the last decade or two. But now I'm starting to see that aside from the "pulsing" concept, this forum is no different than the others in that respect. Why? Well, partly because people seem to be padding their post count with bullsh*t posts pretending to be macho experts, dismissing any idea that they haven't heard of before (all while flaunting their broken English and improper grammar - which is another social norm I've picked up on around here, btw).

EDIT: You're right, I do sound a little aggressive. But, I think what you are seeing is a manifestation of my frustration.

 

[CrazyChemist]

Actually when I first started posting about the 2-week protocol (not just on this forum, but others as well) I tried VERY hard to have an intelligent discussion about it, but EVERY time, and I really do mean EVERY time people who think they know it all dismiss it based on information or reasoning that is just plain wrong. Furthermore, very few people (maybe one or two so far) of all the people who like to criticize it, know ANYTHING at all about it in the first place and are just making presumptions based on their own faulty reasoning. Very few people have actually taken the time to research or even ask what the pros and cons are. They'd much rather parrot stock phrases that they've seen repeated time and time again without even possessing the knowledge to back any of it up. I mean seriously, some people talk like they're friggin' endocrinologists when in reality all they know is what they've read posted on places like this.

And of course shutdown will occur in 2 weeks. I thought that was pretty much a given, I mean come on. But if you know ANYTHING about the 2-week protocol, you would know that recovery is RAPID compared to cycles that are even a little bit longer (such as 3 weeks). That is the WHOLE POINT of the 2-week cycle, preserving the opportunity to recover almost immediately. No sh*t, you could make more gains on a longer cycle, but your recovery period will be MUCH longer as well. That's why, for some people, the 2-weeker makes for a nice trade off. I'm not even going to talk about the HPTA and what is occurring to allow for rapid recovery, I've done it before and nobody pays attention anyway.

The only reason I even brought up the 2-week protocol on this forum is because compared to other forums, folks here seem pretty open minded about unorthodox, innovative ways to to go about AAS use. Other forums are stuck in old ways, and refuse to consider anything different than what they've been doing for the last decade or two. But now I'm starting to see that aside from the "pulsing" concept, this forum is no different than the others in that respect. Why? Well, partly because people seem to be padding their post count with bullsh*t posts pretending to be macho experts, dismissing any idea that they haven't heard of before (all while flaunting their broken English and improper grammar - which is another social norm I've picked up on around here, btw).

EDIT: You're right, I do sound a little aggressive. But, I think what you are seeing is a manifestation of my frustration.

Aight I hear ya. Definitely some frustrating people on the forum, as well as most forums, as I think we would both agree. I am genuinely interested tho in the protocol. Maybe PM me. I'm curious how many weeks one can go 2 on / 2 off? If you just do 2 on, that would be a 2 week cycle, not a pulse right? So this must be for at least a month, maybe longer?

 

[Liftingstud]

Actually when I first started posting about the 2-week protocol (not just on this forum, but others as well) I tried VERY hard to have an intelligent discussion about it, but EVERY time, and I really do mean EVERY time people who think they know it all dismiss it based on information or reasoning that is just plain wrong. Furthermore, very few people (maybe one or two so far) of all the people who like to criticize it, know ANYTHING at all about it in the first place and are just making presumptions based on their own faulty reasoning. Very few people have actually taken the time to research or even ask what the pros and cons are. They'd much rather parrot stock phrases that they've seen repeated time and time again without even possessing the knowledge to back any of it up. I mean seriously, some people talk like they're friggin' endocrinologists when in reality all they know is what they've read posted on places like this.

And of course shutdown will occur in 2 weeks. I thought that was pretty much a given, I mean come on. But if you know ANYTHING about the 2-week protocol, you would know that recovery is RAPID compared to cycles that are even a little bit longer (such as 3 weeks). That is the WHOLE POINT of the 2-week cycle, preserving the opportunity to recover almost immediately. No sh*t, you could make more gains on a longer cycle, but your recovery period will be MUCH longer as well. That's why, for some people, the 2-weeker makes for a nice trade off. I'm not even going to talk about the HPTA and what is occurring to allow for rapid recovery, I've done it before and nobody pays attention anyway.

The only reason I even brought up the 2-week protocol on this forum is because compared to other forums, folks here seem pretty open minded about unorthodox, innovative ways to to go about AAS use. Other forums are stuck in old ways, and refuse to consider anything different than what they've been doing for the last decade or two. But now I'm starting to see that aside from the "pulsing" concept, this forum is no different than the others in that respect. Why? Well, partly because people seem to be padding their post count with bullsh*t posts pretending to be macho experts, dismissing any idea that they haven't heard of before (all while flaunting their broken English and improper grammar - which is another social norm I've picked up on around here, btw).

EDIT: You're right, I do sound a little aggressive. But, I think what you are seeing is a manifestation of my frustration.

I totally agree there are lots of people on here that really dont know much. They also feel they can make a modification to a certain type of cycle for none other reason than because they think they can. Certain methods of cycling are setup a certain way for a reason. Changing them without knowing why is just asking for issues. Or throwing in a bunch of random aas/ph because they want to get big. It is a growing problem because of the ease of access of these compounds.

Glad you agree there will be some shutdown after a 2 wk on cycle of SD. Yes because you are not on it for longer the recover is quicker. I just think the key idea of pulsing is to extend a cycle, make slower more managable gains and avoid sides. Shutdown is one of the major sides of running cycles. So this is why I disagree with the 2 wk cycle, not saying it cannot work. I would rather see you go eod with 3x a wk dosing and run it for much longer than put your body at risk for shutdown, extending the cycle and making slower more managable gains... hence the whole backbone idea behind pulsing. But there are always more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[CrazyChemist]

I totally agree there are lots of people on here that really dont know much. They also feel they can make a modification to a certain type of cycle for none other reason than because they think they can. Certain methods of cycling are setup a certain way for a reason. Changing them without knowing why is just asking for issues. Or throwing in a bunch of random aas/ph because they want to get big. It is a growing problem because of the ease of access of these compounds.

Glad you agree there will be some shutdown after a 2 wk on cycle of SD. Yes because you are not on it for longer the recover is quicker. I just think the key idea of pulsing is to extend a cycle, make slower more managable gains and avoid sides. Shutdown is one of the major sides of running cycles. So this is why I disagree with the 2 wk cycle, not saying it cannot work. I would rather see you go eod with 3x a wk dosing and run it for much longer than put your body at risk for shutdown, extending the cycle and making slower more managable gains... hence the whole backbone idea behind pulsing. But there are always more than one way to skin a cat.

This is my initial thinking but I think even a certified endocrinologist would say they don't know everything about the field. I mean there is alot to know. I would love to hear an alternative opinion. Worst case senario, we agree to disagree but like I said, I don't know everything and I would love to learn something new.

 

[epilogue]

Ok, I'm not completely throwing out the 2 week protocol. However, if I were to run a 3x a week pulse, how should I dose it?
MWF:
Week 1: 10, 20, 30
week 2: 30, 30, 30

30mg 3x a week for how many weeks? 6? Possibly more?
Last thing.. I've heard you don't PCT a pulse, but what if i wanted to make sure I fully recovered after one.. Could I do a formal PCT after it?

 

[Liftingstud]

I am in the medical field, actually a dr and have a friend that is an endocrinologist. We have talked some about aas but they usually have limited knowledge in that area unless they haveva private interest. Thus us because they are taught about the actions of deca, dbol, tren, etc... Yes they know tons about how the human body functions but they will admit there is lots they don't, esp when u start talking anabolics. Even internists have very little education in the area and avoid it due to lack if knowledge.

 

[CrazyChemist]

Ok, I'm not completely throwing out the 2 week protocol. However, if I were to run a 3x a week pulse, how should I dose it?
MWF:
Week 1: 10, 20, 30
week 2: 30, 30, 30

30mg 3x a week for how many weeks? 6? Possibly more?
Last thing.. I've heard you don't PCT a pulse, but what if i wanted to make sure I fully recovered after one.. Could I do a formal PCT after it?

You don't have a PCT after a pulse? :trink26: I would most certainly run a PCT. Especially if you are pulsing for 6 weeks!

 

[epilogue]

You don't have a PCT after a pulse? :trink26: I would most certainly run a PCT. Especially if you are pulsing for 6 weeks!

LOL sounded crazy to me too.. the gist I got from the Dr. D post was that you didn't need one if running a 3x a week pulse. Anywho..

clomid at 50/50/50/50 sound ok? And I still would like to have some feedback on the dosing. Is 30mg norm? 20 pre(1 hour before, is this right?) and 10 post?

 

[epilogue]

I have these questions just burning through my brain! On off days should I take anything? Some say yes, some say no.. If I do what should I take?

 

[UnrealMachine]

sd pulsed 3x a week for 6 weeks will be good. I think deciding to take something on off days is optional. I really need to run a higher dosed SD pulse so i can get some experience with it but from my pulsing with epi the shutdown was so negligible that i think the concept behind pulsing works well enough without anything taken on off days. But yes you should run a PCT. Always a good idea lol.

Libertarian I think the 2 on 2 off idea has a lot of merit and i've considered it for SD & for M1T. The only part I was skeptical about is the extent to which shutdown is mitigated by doing 2 weeks. Because I had thought about doing this with M1T but based on what i've read about M1T the shutdown is nearly instant so recovery after 2 weeks isn't all that easy.

 

[Libertarian]

Shutdown is one of the major sides of running cycles. So this is why I disagree with the 2 wk cycle, not saying it cannot work. I would rather see you go eod with 3x a wk dosing and run it for much longer than put your body at risk for shutdown, extending the cycle and making slower more managable gains... hence the whole backbone idea behind pulsing. But there are always more than one way to skin a cat.

Well, if you want to avoid shut down COMPLETELY, then yes, I guess your only option is to pulse and cross your fingers. However, with the 2-week protocol, if done correctly, by the beginning of the second "off" week you are typically already recovered. In fact, people who run it report continuing their gains during the off weeks as well. This is great because it allows you to carry your gains to the next 2-week "on" period instead of having to play catchup and re-make gains that were lost during PCT (which is what most people are used to). So while technically you would be shutdown, you wouldn't experience the "PCT crash" commonly associated with cycles that are 3-12+ weeks long. This is a huge advantage in my opinion, as going through the "PCT crash" myself sucked.

And as for how many "on" cycles you can do in a row, most people seem to to 2-on/2-off three times, and then extend the third "off period" to 4-6 weeks, and then repeat.

If you guys are really interested you should check out this thread: http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/2_weeker_1

There are some great links in the first reply as well as an informative discussion with Bill Roberts himself (the guy who developed the protocol).

Also, here is a 2-week protocol "case study". You can also find the bloodwork and see that the guy's hormone levels were back to normal very quick. I do want to mention that some of the aspects of the protocol have changed since that article was written, but if you check out the other links I posted you'll see what I mean. http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/pharmacology/steroid-case-study-01.htm

The key to rapid recovery is explained by Bill here:

The advantage is that there's actually a two-stage process of inhibition. You have the hypothalamus and the pituitary. Between the two of them, the hypothalamus produces a hormone called LHRH, and that tells the pituitary to produce LH. LH tells the testicles to produce testosterone. Now, after two weeks, the pituitary actually isn't inhibited yet. In fact, it's sensitized. So it will put out more LH from LHRH during the first two weeks. If you stop at two weeks, the recovery is very, very fast. All you have to do is stop and when the hypothalamus produces LHRH, you're back in business, especially if you use Clomid. You'll get a very fast recovery. You'll be back to normal in less than a week. But, if you go beyond that two-week point, the pituitary also goes into a state of suppression. And from that point, it can take many weeks to get back to normal.

Now you can see that once you go past the 2 week mark, you lose the main advantage of rapid recovery. This is why I don't agree with 3-4 week cycles either, you might as well go 6-10 weeks (obviously not orals-only). Also, I'm convinced that pretty quick into a cycle your body starts to "fight back" in an attempt to reach homeostasis, which is why gains begin to taper off. In "Building the perfect Beast" by L. Rea, I think he makes the case that this starts to happen about three weeks in. Therefore, I think the 2-week protocol allows you to get, make some gains before your body can adapt, and get out. Something I think is important for us to consider is maximizing the efficiency of the time you spend "on" per year - it's a well known fact that the longer a cycle becomes the less efficient it becomes as well.

So yes, if you want to avoid shutdown completely, your only choice is to "pulse". If you want to make the biggest changes to your body possible between now and 6-10 weeks from now, then you should run a 6-10 week cycle. However, if you are fine with "slow and steady gains" and more concerned about long-term gains (over 6-12 months), and want to minimize the side effects during the process, I think the 2-week protocol might be for you.

 

[CrazyChemist]

So - maybe like 2on/2off for 6 weeks, then 4 more off, then another 6 as 2on/2off, then 4 more off - total 24 weeks then 24 more weeks of nothing hormonal cause thats just the right thing to do.

 

[Liftingstud]

Its very interesting to say the least.

Lib, so they advocate the use to clomid on your off wks to help aid with the bounce back?

You stated that people often make gains even the beginning of the off wk. Makes me curious about the binding affinity of SD. Because this is often the case at the end of SD cycle that people often report gains in the beginning of the first wk or PCT. I have "heard" that SD has a strong binding affinity, but dose anyone know how true this statement is?

How long have most people been running this? Are we looking at a total of 3-4 runs of 4 wks (2on 2off)? I really love SD and wish it could be run longer. Thinking if you could get 3-5lbs of solid muscle then repeat 3-4x that would make for some amazing gains. And probably fairly easy to keep. That has been a major problem that I have found with SD gains, they are rapid and fast in 3-4wks then you go off and your body has not had time to adjust and you fight in PCT to hold them (even with the best PCT its hard).

Definately has peaked my interest from the very beginning of the thread.

 

[Libertarian]

Liftingstud - I actually don't remember reading about anyone running SD during the 2-weeker. Most people tend to run compounds like Test Prop/Susp, Dianabol, Tren Ace, etc. That said, I will be running SD with at least my first 2-weeker. Starting early-mid January, I will be doing a series that will look like: 2-on/2-off/2-on/2-off/2-on/6-off. At the end of the 6 off, I will asses my gains and hopefully get some bloodwork done. The compounds I am planning to run are Test Prop/Tren Ace/SD. Not 100% decided on the dosages of each.

SD (and maybe M1T) are the only PH/DS that I would consider for the 2-weeker. Reason being is that I would want to take advantage of the reduced side effects that come with running short cycles by running stronger compounds at high-ish dosages (not super high, just higher than I would on a longer cycle). I've read reports of people running crazy high dosages (in my opinion) of injectables and orals and experience very little sides while making great gains during the two weeks. Of course, Test is usually run as well which should help with some of the sides. Not that you wouldn't benefit from incorporating injectables, but the more I think about it, the 2-week protocol might be one of the best ways to run SD solo.

Unreal - That's a valid concern and one I share myself. M1T is very tempting to me, but I've never heard of anyone running it in such a manner. Well, I have heard of it, but don't know what the results were. That said, lots of people have ran heavy stacks that included Tren, which is also extremely suppressive, and everything was fine. If Bill Robert's science is correct (which it seems to be, considering the results people are reporting), I really don't think the suppressiveness of the compound will matter a whole lot so long as it is out of your system by Day 15. The only way to know is to do it yourself and post the bloodwork for us all to see .


It is pretty hard doing research on this cycle protocol. Outside of tnation, it isn't really discussed as the idea is almost always immediately dismissed by chest-thumping know-it-alls. Kind of how "pusling" isn't really discussed anywhere but here. But, here are a few quotes from different posts I've come across regarding the 2-weeker:

I've had great success with the 2 on/4 off - it's my favorite cycle which I've done God knows how many times...

... I always do use Clomid after the cycle, and recovery after 2 weeks on is extremely quick, while the gains you make are nothing short of spectacular...

...you start feeling in on day 4 and by day 14 you can't believe the changes you see in the mirror.

Results.....kept 9 pounds all muscle!! NO SIDES AT ALL! His hair is thinning and he experience NO hair loss from this cycle.
Strength...through the roof.

I used the protocol on several two week oral runs...

... The strength/hypertrophy gains just kept going right into the two off weeks, it was pretty impressive and surprising to me, though I had figured it to be accurate coming from Bill and Bushy too. Like I said, the gains were rock solid, and to this day that is my favorite oral combo, and cycle length for them. You kind of reach a nice "higher level by the second off week, and then if you do a back to back and start up again, you're in a much better position than if you would have just run a 4 weeker and tried to recover and retain gains.

You never seem to lose anything, then you start up again at a higher plateu, and the whole process starts anew. I loved it...

 

[CrazyChemist]

The only way to know is to do it yourself and post the bloodwork for us all to see .

I smell a log coming up soon.

 

[Liftingstud]

Liftingstud - I actually don't remember reading about anyone running SD during the 2-weeker. Most people tend to run compounds like Test Prop/Susp, Dianabol, Tren Ace, etc. That said, I will be running SD with at least my first 2-weeker. Starting early-mid January, I will be doing a series that will look like: 2-on/2-off/2-on/2-off/2-on/6-off. At the end of the 6 off, I will asses my gains and hopefully get some bloodwork done. The compounds I am planning to run are Test Prop/Tren Ace/SD. Not 100% decided on the dosages of each.

SD (and maybe M1T) are the only PH/DS that I would consider for the 2-weeker. Reason being is that I would want to take advantage of the reduced side effects that come with running short cycles by running stronger compounds at high-ish dosages (not super high, just higher than I would on a longer cycle). I've read reports of people running crazy high dosages (in my opinion) of injectables and orals and experience very little sides while making great gains during the two weeks. Of course, Test is usually run as well which should help with some of the sides. Not that you wouldn't benefit from incorporating injectables, but the more I think about it, the 2-week protocol might be one of the best ways to run SD solo.
:

Yeah looking over there I saw pretty much short ester inj being talked about in this mannor. I remember when Dr. D talked about pulsing he advocated pretty high doses, almost 1.5-2x the recommended. The options he discussed were a 3x (m,w,f) or 4x wk (m,t,f,sat) or the 2 wk on 2 wk off. This compound mainly talked about was epi but later he said it would be nice for lots of fast acting compounds.

I agree that the orals i would look at would be sd, m1t... but what about "tren" seems like it could fit the bill also.

What about using clomid in the off wks? Is that what you find most are doing to help with the quick recover?

 

[Libertarian]

Yeah looking over there I saw pretty much short ester inj being talked about in this mannor. I remember when Dr. D talked about pulsing he advocated pretty high doses, almost 1.5-2x the recommended. The options he discussed were a 3x (m,w,f) or 4x wk (m,t,f,sat) or the 2 wk on 2 wk off. This compound mainly talked about was epi but later he said it would be nice for lots of fast acting compounds.

I agree that the orals i would look at would be sd, m1t... but what about "tren" seems like it could fit the bill also.

What about using clomid in the off wks? Is that what you find most are doing to help with the quick recover?

As far as running Clomid, Nolva, or both, it's no different than any other cycle. Run whichever you prefer. I've seen people run either. For the 2-week off periods, I would run a SERM the entire duration. For example, on my 2-week off-weeks I will be running Nolva 40/20. On the 6 weeks off I will probably run the standard 40/40/20/20 for the first 4 weeks. I think either compound would do the job just fine. That said, I think Bill Roberts prefers Clomid if I remember correctly.

 

[CrazyChemist]

i'm much more comfortable with the idea of 2-on/2-off knowing that there is a SERM involved during the off weeks. You did Lib, you changed my perspective. I might even consider this in the future.

 

[epilogue]

I really want to try it.. And hey, if after 2 off weeks if I feel suppressed I could always not go back on.. Sounds pretty safe to me. I have clomid on hand and like it quite a bit. What dose would you speculate I should use during the 2 off week period? possibly 100 for a few days dropping to 50 for the next week and a half? or just 50/50? 100 seems high for a 2 week on period..

 

[epilogue]

I definitely have more questions about dosing during the first two weeks, and then starting the second "on" period..

10/20
off/off
20/20 ?

Do I have to start at 10 after every 2 off weeks?

 

[CrazyChemist]

The dosing at 10 is to figure out how your body does at 10, evaluate the sides. If you can handle 10 without too many sides and bump up to 20 without too many sides then you know you can handle 20 the next time around. I'm discussing this on another forum, where the downregulation effect has been brought up as an argument for starting at 10 every cycle but in this case I think you could do 20/20.

You could probably do clomid 50/50 during the two off weeks. I'm thinking....... if it was me I'd probably pick up some nolva and run 10mg ED on cycle but I suppose that might not be necessary.

I'm trying to think how else to make this safer just because I'm concerned. I know lib might disagree but I think running sustain alpha liquivade during the off weeks might be beneficial and maybe some lean xtreme throughout. After your last 2 weeks on I'd run clomid 100/50/25 and during the 25 start formex 100/50/25. Obviously support supps like a liver protection.

If I can think of anything else I'll post it

 

[Libertarian]

I know lib might disagree but I think running sustain alpha liquivade during the off weeks might be beneficial and maybe some lean xtreme throughout. After your last 2 weeks on I'd run clomid 100/50/25 and during the 25 start formex 100/50/25.

Don't know much about Sustain Alpha or Formex, but I have ran both Lean Xtreme and Activate Xtreme and think they're both good products. I started LX at the beginning of PCT and AX on week 4. I know LX works from using it in the past and I learned AX works as well since once my bottle ran out my strength dropped at the gym. This really surprised me because I thought the product was all hype, and I just took it because I had an old bottle of the original formula laying around. Both products I think are good for PCT, especially if are recovering from a longer cycle.


EDIT: I just wanted to point out to the guys who want to run the 2-week protocol with orals only that while you may be able to minimize HPTA shutdown, your liver values are still a concern. Regular bloodwork is always good if you're using gear but if you're running a lot of alkylateds I'd say even more so. "Support supplements" for your liver can't hurt, but they surely don't work miracles either.

 

[Liftingstud]

Sooo true on the bloodwork. Way too many people are tuning all these oral cycles and never get bloodwork done, which is a problem. They all come back a day I recovered no problem... And u ask what bloodwork was like and they say they didn't get any but they can tell. Lol!!

 

[Liftingstud]

With this idea of pulsing lib do u still take the doses only pre and post workout... Or do u spread the doses out over the day like normal and now a pulse because u are going on then off?

 

[epilogue]

With this idea of pulsing lib do u still take the doses only pre and post workout... Or fo u spread the doses out over the day like normal and now a pulse because u are going on then off?

Hey! there's a good one, I was going to just assume it was a pre/post dosing.. good thing you brought it up.

 

[Liftingstud]

Hey! there's a good one, I was going to just assume it was a pre/post dosing.. good thing you brought it up.

My initial thinking was it would be run like a normal cycle where you spread the dose. And the "pulsing" aspect is the 2 wks on 2 wks off. Because I would think you would want consistant blood concentrations throughout the 2 wks you are on. If you went ed with dosing but pre and post you would get dramatic peaks and valleys throughout the wk. Not sure but lets see what Lib says.

Also most were done with shorter ester inj from what i can see, so only one dose was needed per day anway. Maybe he will know how people did the oral part of the cycles for those that used Dbol and other orals. Even still they have the esters in there so hormone levels werent as prone to peaks and valleys.

 

[CrazyChemist]

Don't know much about Sustain Alpha or Formex, but I have ran both Lean Xtreme and Activate Xtreme and think they're both good products. I started LX at the beginning of PCT and AX on week 4. I know LX works from using it in the past and I learned AX works as well since once my bottle ran out my strength dropped at the gym. This really surprised me because I thought the product was all hype, and I just took it because I had an old bottle of the original formula laying around. Both products I think are good for PCT, especially if are recovering from a longer cycle.


EDIT: I just wanted to point out to the guys who want to run the 2-week protocol with orals only that while you may be able to minimize HPTA shutdown, your liver values are still a concern. Regular bloodwork is always good if you're using gear but if you're running a lot of alkylateds I'd say even more so. "Support supplements" for your liver can't hurt, but they surely don't work miracles either.

Formex is an OTC AI. I suggest it simply to address the possible estro bounce-back from runnign the SERM. Sustain alpha is a natty test booster. I had really good experiences with it.

 

[Libertarian]

My initial thinking was it would be run like a normal cycle where you spread the dose. And the "pulsing" aspect is the 2 wks on 2 wks off. Because I would think you would want consistant blood concentrations throughout the 2 wks you are on. If you went ed with dosing but pre and post you would get dramatic peaks and valleys throughout the wk. Not sure but lets see what Lib says.

That's how I would run it.

I'm starting to wonder if including the 2-week protocol under the term "pusling" is a good idea. I say this because I've already got a couple PM's from people who think they might be able to do it without a SERM. This isn't like the original pulsing idea where you can squeak by without a SERM. As we've already discussed, the suppression isn't as severe and you can bounce back much faster than longer cycles, but technically you will be suppressed to some degree and you will surely want to use a SERM during those "off" weeks. It seems like people have already associated the word "pulsing" with a way to run AAS without any sort of PCT or SERM but in order to bounce back so rapidly a SERM is absolutely necessary for this protocol.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I've got an idea... running 2 on 2 off nested within a much longer injectable cycle... no serms, no PCTs, keepin' all the gains, haha... I might do it.

 

[Liftingstud]

I was def not suggesting u go without a serm... So u would dose it normally? ie spread the dose throughout the day.

 

[CrazyChemist]

I've got an idea... running 2 on 2 off nested within a much longer injectable cycle... no serms, no PCTs, keepin' all the gains, haha... I might do it.

You mean no pct till the end of the injectable cycle. I wonder tho, if you pulse 2-on/2-off nested in an injectable cycle you aren't really preventing shutdown. However, the "pulse" would allow you to run the oral longer with less of an effect on the liver.

 

[Libertarian]

I was def not suggesting u go without a serm....

Oh, I know you weren't suggesting that it can be ran without a SERM. But if we call the 2-week protocol a "pulse", some of the noobs might think they can run it without a SERM since that's what Dr.D's original pulse concept suggests.

I view the 2-week protocol as sort of the "middle ground" between "pulsing" and a full-blown standard 6-12 week cycle. This is because pulsing gives you the chance to utilize AAS without being shutdown and you can theoretically get by without anything resembling a PCT (in certain cases). The 2-weeker does cause some level of shutdown and does require sort of a "truncated" PCT, but still allows you to bounce back extemely fast and avoid the typical "PCT crash". Then the "full-blown" cycle, or rather, any cycle that lasts 3+ weeks for our purposes, which causes shutdown that would minimally require weeks if not months to recover from and all the negatives that come along with that (increased cortisol, lost gains, etc.). People on the internet love to boast about how their uber-elite bodybuilding skills allowed them to keep 100% (or close to it) of their LBM and strength gains during PCT after a long cycle, but in the real world I've never seen that happen.

I was def not suggesting u go without a serm... So u would dose it normally? ie spread the dose throughout the day.

I would say just dose it as you would if you were running a typical cycle. In other words, yeah, I would spread it out. Like I said earlier, when I run my 2-weeker, I will be running 2 injectables and an oral. The injectables will be pinned everyday. My oral will be SD, dosed either 10 or 20mg a day. If I decide on 10mg, I will be taking it about an hour before my workout to capitalize on the immediate benefits the compound offers. If I do 20mg, I'll still take 10mg pre-workout and then the other 10 maybe later in the day/evening (I almost always workout in the morning). This is just my subjective approach for my particular cycle, I think you should do whatever you feel is best for your own specific cycle. But, since you aren't trying to avoid shutdown the same way you would if you were "pusling", the timing of the dosage isn't as critical if that's what your concern was.

 

[luclyluciano]

I love pulsing MWF. No need to worry if you work out 5-6 days a week. Most excercises, especially core or big muscle group excersises work out multiple muscle groups. Strong compounds like SD quickly shuttle glycogen & water into muscles creating rapid growth and hardness in multiple muscle groups. I still benefit from the glycogen stores and stregth in muscles in off days. This is why most say they are still making gains in PCT. It takes time for the glycogen & water to fade out of the muscles. If 2 weeks on 2 weeks off works, why not 1 week on an one week off. I feel 2 weeks on would shut most people down almost comletely only to have to restart yourself completly and then get completely sgut down once again.

 

[Libertarian]

If 2 weeks on 2 weeks off works, why not 1 week on an one week off. I feel 2 weeks on would shut most people down almost comletely only to have to restart yourself completly and then get completely sgut down once again.

You might want to re-read some of the posts in this thread, particularly post #25 in regards to HTPA shutdown being a two-stage process and how that relates to a 2-week cycle vs. longer cycles.

As far as 1-on/1-off, some degree of success might be had with that but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that cycle, especially multiple times sequentially. Particularly when running strong compounds, you would be suppressed, and the recovery would likely be similar to that of a 2 week cycle. In other words, you might as well go 2-weeks. Bill Roberts actually has mentioned how he has ran 2-on/1-off cycles before. However, as I said before, this is something that should really be done carefully and sparingly if at all (I wouldn't bother with it at all personally). Check out this quote from Bill (from one of the links I posted earlier):

I generally explain it in terms of weeks on per year, and the following subjective and unprovable appraisal that being on 1/3 of the time is conservative but can be quite effective; being on half the time is pushing it a little more but is still exercising some caution and isn't extreme; and being on 2/3 or more is being quite aggressive and doesn't necessarily give much more results by the end of the year.

 

[luclyluciano]

You might want to re-read some of the posts in this thread, particularly post #25 in regards to HTPA shutdown being a two-stage process and how that relates to a 2-week cycle vs. longer cycles.

As far as 1-on/1-off, some degree of success might be had with that but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that cycle, especially multiple times sequentially. Particularly when running strong compounds, you would be suppressed, and the recovery would likely be similar to that of a 2 week cycle. In other words, you might as well go 2-weeks. Bill Roberts actually has mentioned how he has ran 2-on/1-off cycles before. However, as I said before, this is something that should really be done carefully and sparingly if at all (I wouldn't bother with it at all personally). Check out this quote from Bill (from one of the links I posted earlier):

I've read that post. T-nation is not a preferred site of mine. I find many of the threads are outright wacky.

 

[Libertarian]

I've read that post. T-nation is not a preferred site of mine. I find many of the threads are outright wacky.

The actual site, yes, is full of bullsh*t. While they do have some articles written by some credible authors, it seems that they way they pay the bills is by selling snake oil to noobs who stumble across their site.

The AAS section of the forum is another story. There are about 4-5 guys there who really know what they are talking about when it comes to AAS. Among those, Bill Roberts, in my opinion, is the most credible source. Not just on that site, but probably out of all the "steroid gurus" that we have. Many "steroid gurus" spout more BS than useful information and noobs eat it up. I mean, I consider myself a relative noob compared to many others, but when reading articles written by a lot of these guys who are supposedly "credible" I find myself shaking my head thinking "WTF?!" at some of the bullsh*t they're telling people.

Naturally, when I first heard of the 2-week protocol I was very suspicious. I didn't even know who Bill Roberts was. I started reading every post written on it that I could find, as well as many of the articles written by Bill. I also began following his posts over at T-Nation. Eventually I decided that Bill is one of the VERY few "steroid gurus" that actually knows what he's talking about and gives credible advice.

Most "steroid gurus" seem to fit into one of two categories. The first group have little to no relevant educational qualifications and just spout bullsh*t that they've read while browsing the web. They may have a little real-world experience but don't posses a true understanding for the hard-science surrounding AAS use. The other group consists of people that do have relevant educational background, they might know what works on paper, but limited real-world experience. We have all seen that in regards to AAS use, there is a sharp divide between the medical/academic community and the real world. Bill is one of the few who is is highly educated, and has a TON of real world experience using AAS himself as well as advising others, including top-level bodybuilding competitors. No, I don't take anything he says as the gospel, but I have certainly developed a sense of trust in credibility, especially compared to other guys out there (not naming any names). I can literally count on one hand the number of "gurus" out there whom I have developed any kind of trust in their credibility - and probably with fingers to spare.

Just my $.02.