Sustanon cycle+ more

[myofreak]

Guys heres a cycle I'm doin right now.I am doin lots of cardio but not limiting food intake especially protein.I am aiming to retain muscle mass and cut my fat %.I am 6'ft, 210lbs, 16-18% bodyfat.

Week 1-10= 500mg Sustanon 250
Week 1-10= 25mg proviron
Week 1-10= 20mg Winstrol

I know the proviron and winny seem underdosed but i wanna be able to use them for my whole cycle instead of a heavier dose and shorter time on them.
Any input would be appreciated.

 

[raybravo]

i like this cycle , will work well bro . good luck .

 

[myofreak]

Thanks Ray.As I said, main aim is to retain muscle as I feel that I already have sufficient size on me.I have been doin 40-50min cardio for 5 days a week.Also doin heavy weights but I might cut down a bit.I take my eca before workouts and sweat like mad.Only problem is I get bad cramps.Been eating bananas and taking potassium gluco for that problem.

 

[raybravo]

forget the bananas and all that , use a electrolyte drink , and also 5 gms taurine a day .

 

[azgymrat]

Myofreak, Please don't take this as a flame as it is not intended to be. The results you get from the AAS for weight loss are just like for muscle gain - temporary. When you go off your body will want to go back to what it was. IMHO tweeking your diet a bit can get you where you want to go and you may learn how to keep it where you want to be. If you're not training for something specific, I'd save your stuff for a better use or time. Doing this just to get laid is not a good enough reason... OK, doing it to get laid is a good enough reason but I hope you know what I mean.

 

[size]

My only change would be to take the winny for 6 weeks instead of ten at a higher dosage for those 6 weeks.

 

[myofreak]

I understand what you are saying gymrat.The thing I forgot to mention is that I have been neglecting cardio totally ever since i got married in Oct and this is what has put the fat on me.My diet within this phase of time has consisted of chocolate and ice-cream and my Standard good diet.So this all equates to excess fat.Now im into a month of a cleaned up diet.Bodyfat is down to 16%.I retain musculature pretty well off cycle.I believe in comprehensive PCT and cut down on volume of training.What u are telling is good advice and has been noted a month ago while I was staring at my gut in the mirror a month ago.

Size I was sorta thinking yeah maybe up the dosage on the winny but wouldnt the winny and proviron work well together at a mild dosage.??Because if i do winny for 6weeks then there will be a void where there is no winny for 4weeks.What does everyone think of the Proviron dosage?

 

[myofreak]

Thanks for the advice Ray.I do take an electrolyte drink but I'll just have to try some taurine out as well.Can cramping too often cause muscle damage or be an indication of it.As of now it has been only post workout that my cramps start and it subsides with 2-3pills of Potassium gluconate.

 

[raybravo]

Myofreak, Please don't take this as a flame as it is not intended to be. The results you get from the AAS for weight loss are just like for muscle gain - temporary. When you go off your body will want to go back to what it was. IMHO tweeking your diet a bit can get you where you want to go and you may learn how to keep it where you want to be. If you're not training for something specific, I'd save your stuff for a better use or time. Doing this just to get laid is not a good enough reason... OK, doing it to get laid is a good enough reason but I hope you know what I mean.

excuse me ? why will the weight loss be temporary ? can u explain the reasoning ? u still have to diet and train, steroids arent going to help him beat science , calories burnt have to be more than calories ingested , even on steroids, so ur logic is very flawed .
no , not sure why craming hapens , but taurine works well for it , thats 100 % sure . so use it .

 

[ruffneck]

Winny always makes me cramp even with low doses. The taurine will help but increasing your amount of water intake will help more than anything. Stay with the Potassium supplement.

 

[azgymrat]

excuse me ? why will the weight loss be temporary ? can u explain the reasoning ? u still have to diet and train, steroids arent going to help him beat science , calories burnt have to be more than calories ingested , even on steroids, so ur logic is very flawed .
no , not sure why craming hapens , but taurine works well for it , thats 100 % sure . so use it .

"steroids arent going to help him beat science " This was my point exactly so I dont think my reasoning is flawed! Taking roids is not going to change his diet, or his training and will only change his BF% while he is on it if nothing else in his lifestyle changes. When you go off, if all other thing remain the same the body goes right back to what it was before cycle. I been around this stuff long enough to know it is only a short term result and seen too many blow up huge and 5 years later are exactly what they were before they started. I hope this is not the case for him as he sounds like the BF% issue has been a short term prob and he sees the causes, but the principle is the same. If you have any facts to show that anything other than the negitive effects are permament (and most of them are temporary too) I love to see them. So, "excuse me ?" OK, you're excused.

 

[azgymrat]

I understand what you are saying gymrat.The thing I forgot to mention is that I have been neglecting cardio totally ever since i got married in Oct and this is what has put the fat on me.My diet within this phase of time has consisted of chocolate and ice-cream and my Standard good diet.So this all equates to excess fat.Now im into a month of a cleaned up diet.Bodyfat is down to 16%.I retain musculature pretty well off cycle.I believe in comprehensive PCT and cut down on volume of training.What u are telling is good advice and has been noted a month ago while I was staring at my gut in the mirror a month ago.

Size I was sorta thinking yeah maybe up the dosage on the winny but wouldnt the winny and proviron work well together at a mild dosage.??Because if i do winny for 6weeks then there will be a void where there is no winny for 4weeks.What does everyone think of the Proviron dosage?

Gotcha ya dude, have fun with it.

 

[raybravo]

"steroids arent going to help him beat science " This was my point exactly so I dont think my reasoning is flawed! Taking roids is not going to change his diet, or his training and will only change his BF% while he is on it if nothing else in his lifestyle changes. When you go off, if all other thing remain the same the body goes right back to what it was before cycle. I been around this stuff long enough to know it is only a short term result and seen too many blow up huge and 5 years later are exactly what they were before they started. I hope this is not the case for him as he sounds like the BF% issue has been a short term prob and he sees the causes, but the principle is the same. If you have any facts to show that anything other than the negitive effects are permament (and most of them are temporary too) I love to see them. So, "excuse me ?" OK, you're excused.

hope u are taking into consideration the effect of steroids on insulin sensitivity , the effect of AR binding on lipid metabolism , effect on lipoprotein lipase enzyme .... ? dont think so , to say its not going to change or help reducing his bodyfat is flawed , and u still havent explained why his fat loss which he has had on steroids will be reversed . and , u have been around long enough and seen enough people huh ? well , to let u know , ive seen my share of top level pros , coaches , olympic lifters and newbies , ive trained with them and designed protocols for many , so please dont consider everyone else but u to be less intelligent . now get back to proving what u said , before u can excuse me ....

 

[azgymrat]

hope u are taking into consideration the effect of steroids on insulin sensitivity , the effect of AR binding on lipid metabolism , effect on lipoprotein lipase enzyme .... ? dont think so , to say its not going to change or help reducing his bodyfat is flawed , and u still havent explained why his fat loss which he has had on steroids will be reversed . and , u have been around long enough and seen enough people huh ? well , to let u know , ive seen my share of top level pros , coaches , olympic lifters and newbies , ive trained with them and designed protocols for many , so please dont consider everyone else but u to be less intelligent . now get back to proving what u said , before u can excuse me ....

1. "to say its not going to change or help reducing his bodyfat is flawed" Perhaps you misunderstood my original post so perhaps you should go back and re-read it. I never said that the cycle wasn't going to change or reduce his bodyfat. I said that the effects would be temporary and would reverse when the cycle ended if the factors that caused the unwanted BF% were not changed. He understood what I meant as he posted in his reply and addressed those issues (for which I applaud him).
2. "the effect of steroids on insulin sensitivity , the effect of AR binding on lipid metabolism , effect on lipoprotein lipase enzyme .... ? don’t think so"
Irrelevant to the issue I addressed which was simply the short term effect of AAS and the need to change the diet/ training factors that resulted in the unwanted BF% in the first place.
3. "ive seen my share of top level pros , coaches , olympic lifters and newbies , ive trained with them and designed protocols for many , so please don’t consider everyone else but u to be less intelligent"
Congratulations. Ray, I too have trained with world class power lifters and bodybuilders and while I would never claim that I have set up training regimens for them as they were out of my league in that respect I have done so for more newbies and intermediates than I can recall. I have been training since 1974 and did my first AAS cycle in '80 and am still no expert. If something I said made you feel I was questioning your intelligence then please accept this as a sincere apology as that was certainly not my intention.
That having been said I stand by my statement in my original post that "The results you get from the AAS for weight loss are just like for muscle gain - temporary. When you go off your body will want to go back to what it was." Ray, you are the one questioning the validity of that statement, I was not questioning your original post that said "i like this cycle , will work well bro . good luck ." I think you are right - it will work. So maybe we should stop this little pissing contest. Re-read my post and if you still think I'm out on a limb bring in an expert like Bobo I know he always has the science and knows way more than I do about this, you probably do to. Personally I just think there was more read into my original post than was intended.

 

[raybravo]

1. "to say its not going to change or help reducing his bodyfat is flawed" Perhaps you misunderstood my original post so perhaps you should go back and re-read it. I never said that the cycle wasn't going to change or reduce his bodyfat. I said that the effects would be temporary and would reverse when the cycle ended if the factors that caused the unwanted BF% were not changed.

That having been said I stand by my statement in my original post that "The results you get from the AAS for weight loss are just like for muscle gain - temporary. When you go off your body will want to go back to what it was." Ray, you are the one questioning the validity of that statement, I was not questioning your original post that said "i like this cycle , will work well bro . good luck ." I think you are right - it will work. So maybe we should stop this little pissing contest. Re-read my post and if you still think I'm out on a limb bring in an expert like Bobo I know he always has the science and knows way more than I do about this, you probably do to. Personally I just think there was more read into my original post than was intended.

well ,if u are talking of the factors which will make one fat , yes , he will get fat again if he is not keeping them under control , and he's not going to lose fat either if he doesnt regulate those habits .
and i dont know what i am not understanding here , but i dont see how its all temporary , becos regulating dietary and training habits is the first priority ofcourse , and that wasnt in the question at all , so that apart , how is anything temporary , ur first statement was :
" The results you get from the AAS for weight loss are just like for muscle gain - temporary. When you go off your body will want to go back to what it was. " which is wrong . if he doesnt regulate his other habits , he will not lose any significant weight in the first place . and if he does eat right etc , then why will he gain back the weight ?
not a pissing contest ... dont care about that , but i want to be clarified on something , ofcourse i'll point it out and ask , and thats what i'm doing , and if u want to ask bobo to post and validate anything further , please do . i'd like to see if i'm wrong somewhere as well .

 

[azgymrat]

well ,if u are talking of the factors which will make one fat , yes , he will get fat again if he is not keeping them under control , and he's not going to lose fat either if he doesnt regulate those habits .
and i dont know what i am not understanding here , but i dont see how its all temporary , becos regulating dietary and training habits is the first priority ofcourse , and that wasnt in the question at all , so that apart , how is anything temporary , ur first statement was :
" The results you get from the AAS for weight loss are just like for muscle gain - temporary. When you go off your body will want to go back to what it was. " which is wrong . if he doesnt regulate his other habits , he will not lose any significant weight in the first place . and if he does eat right etc , then why will he gain back the weight ?
not a pissing contest ... dont care about that , but i want to be clarified on something , ofcourse i'll point it out and ask , and thats what i'm doing , and if u want to ask bobo to post and validate anything further , please do . i'd like to see if i'm wrong somewhere as well .

Thanks Ray, I think we are making progress here. Bare with me as I don't know about you but I am thick headed at times. I'm not sure we need Bobo to reply but if he care to that's always fine. I think you are still taking a portion of my post without looking at the entier concept. He never mentioned changing his diet or training, so if you'll rear past the part you quoted you'll see that I said "IMHO tweeking your diet a bit can get you where you want to go and you may learn how to keep it where you want to be. If you're not training for something specific, I'd save your stuff for a better use or time." I was trying to sugest a long term solution for the BF% problem since he had said he was doing a lot of cardio my assumption was it would be diet. The rest of my statement was just personal opinion taking AAS in general, If it's for a contest, OK - to get laid more often? OK I guess (Maybe I should do a cycle myself). But used as a weightloss program just to get BF down, not the best choice, just my opinion though - no body needs to listen. Thanks for responding so quick, should be in bed but I napped to long earlier.

 

[myofreak]

I have been watching this argument and I have one thing to say.I am on this cycle to maintain muscle while I do cardio and cut my bodyfat.Isnt that a goal.

I have been reserving my thoughts ever since gymrat wrote.Gymrat u have to read my first post really well again.
My aim is not specifically to lose fat but to retain muscle while simultaneously losing fat.Preserving and adding muscle is very important to me.In my case I know I will gain muscle.It is normally the case.
Maybe i should have posted that i want to gain muscle while on this cycle to avoid this whole thing.I understand where u are coming from Gym and i think u were just preaching to the choir.

Ray I think is looking at things more from my perpective.Your statement that AS results were temporary hit a nerve with me too but i just chilled.I have done Pro-hormones and OTC steroids and even with them I have reached my ideal way ahead of schedule.I have maintained muscle very long.they are not temp.If i wanted to solely lose bodyfat i would get on some thermos or maybe clen/T3 and we wouldnt be having this thread.

Why would I stack all these if i didnt want to add some muscle at least.I guess I should have been really SPECIFIC.

I WANT TO GAIN SOME MUSCLE/ MAINTAIN MUSCLE WHILE LOSING SOME BODYFAT.

 

[myofreak]

I believe steroidal muscle gains can be permanent up to a certain % after u lose water weight and the such, and most of the time ARE considering factors like caloric intake,training volume both on and off cycle are adjusted accordingly.

 

[azgymrat]

Myo, I did get the part about wanting to maintain muscle while losing BF. Unless I'm mistaken you hadn't mentioned gaining more originally, just losing BF. Also, I will concede that you can keep much of your gains you get from a cycle if eating, training and PCT are all done right as long as your body has not reached it's natural limiting potential, but you said "not limiting food" originally and didn't say you were going to adjust your diet or training. My concern for you was simply that the AAS not be a quick fix. Let's face it, these things are not something to be done or taken just because they make things easier than they would otherwise be, not to imply you were going to do that, but I did years ago and it leads to a viscous cycle. Your goal? Only you can answer that question.
Should you have been more specific in your first post? I don't know, I certainly should have and in the future will ask a few question to clarify things before giving my $.02. Did not mean for your thread to get hijacked like this. I think each of us has valid points here, perhaps my ability to communicate mine was less then adequate.

 

[myofreak]

I understand what you are saying gymrat.The thing I forgot to mention is that I have been neglecting cardio totally ever since i got married in Oct and this is what has put the fat on me.My diet within this phase of time has consisted of chocolate and ice-cream and my Standard good diet.So this all equates to excess fat.Now im into a month of a cleaned up diet.Bodyfat is down to 16%.I retain musculature pretty well off cycle.I believe in comprehensive PCT and cut down on volume of training.What u are telling is good advice and has been noted a month ago while I was staring at my gut in the mirror a month ago.

Size I was sorta thinking yeah maybe up the dosage on the winny but wouldnt the winny and proviron work well together at a mild dosage.??Because if i do winny for 6weeks then there will be a void where there is no winny for 4weeks.What does everyone think of the Proviron dosage?

Did mention bout the diet change and Gym I do understand your point just dont agree on the AS gains being temporary.Well anyway I hope my cycle goes well.I will post results in a seperate thread.

 

[azgymrat]

Did mention bout the diet change and Gym I do understand your point just dont agree on the AS gains being temporary.Well anyway I hope my cycle goes well.I will post results in a seperate thread.

That was not in your original post which was what I first responded to. Your original post was on the 12th, the one you're referring to was on the 13th and I responded "Gotcha ya dude, have fun with it." so once you clarified it most of the point I was trying to make became moot. As far as the gains being temporary? I guess this has been debated and will continue to be debated for a long time to come. My feeling though is if they weren't, the pros would never have to do them again once they got huge, but all the top pros I've known (men and women) never or rarely go off because they can't maintain if they do.
I hope you cycle goes great too, wishing the best for you.

 

[myofreak]

Thanks man.I too wish my cycle goes well.I suppose it would be hard for the pros because the level of musculature they achieve is phenominal and the calories and volume of training needed to maintain it is equally phenominal.It has been interesting watching this thread.This is how alot of us learn sometimes.

 

[maggmaster]

Also you must look at the effect a raise in muscularity will have on the metabolism.... in my experinece that is the largest benefit of androgens for permanent increases in leanness