torem while on cycle?

[manofbushido]

I have been reading about the advantages of using clomid while on instead of HCG to keep some endo test flowing and to keep the balls from disappearing and desensitizing.
With all the benefits I got with my last PCT using torem I was thinking it might be a good on cycle ancillary.
If one were to do this would it need to be stacked with an AI?
Most of the posts I read about using clomid looked like they were stacking it w/adex.
Would you use it week 4-8 of a 12 weeker?

 

[Jasen]

what is ur next cycle?

i would not mix clomid with on cycle, ppl tend to use nolva or adex on AAS that aromatise strongly to estro in order to prevent too much bloat and eliminate gyno possibility

 

[Jasen]

nolva is toxic so i recommend adex

 

[manofbushido]

what is ur next cycle?

12 wk
Test-e 500
NPP 300
w/maybe epi week 8-12

i would not mix clomid with on cycle

I keep bumping into info about using HCG and clomid while on to increase/maintain testicular sensitivity and size. Then a few have used just clomid??

nolva is toxic so i recommend adex

I have adex and caber on hand if needed
and was planning on a torem PCT, but may fall back on clomid.

 

[neverstop]

HCG is proven and cheap. i'd just use that.

 

[manofbushido]

HCG is proven and cheap. i'd just use that.

Very true. I was just dreaming of other possibilities.

 

[Jasen]

hcg is cheap really?

 

[lennoxchi]

nolva is toxic so i recommend adex

adex is toxic as well, and before we go comparing the levels of toxicity keep in mind the strength of the average liver and it's ability to "heal" itself. of course anything mildly or highly toxic taken over a long period may cause permanent damage to the liver, i don't think that this is one of those situations.

hcg is cheap really?

ever see the price of ADEX?

 

[Jasen]

aex is expensive i know. but the research site i know of sell it for 55$ and 30$, legit?

 

[manofbushido]

that is still expensive compared to HCG or at least in the ballpark.
Neither are really pricey compared to torem so it not price that is the point.

Just thought I could reduce estro sides AND kick up LH/FSH in one ORAL ancillary.

 

[EasyEJL]

clomid does work well as an LH mimicker, so it will do what you are talking about yes

 

[CrazyChemist]

hCG is the only real LH mimicker IMO. hCG is a hormone produced by pregnant women to supplement LH levels in their body, which prevents their bodies from breaking down muscle tissue, e.g. the fetus. In males it stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.

Nolva and clomid are estrogen antagonists, meaning they bind to the estrogen receptor but don't activate any event. This means they block a possible receptor site for estrogen and thus decreases the "effectiveness" of the estrogen in your body.

Arimidex is an aromatase inhibitor which means it irreversibly binds to the enzyme which converts test into estrogen, thus inhibiting the aromatization of the test to estrogen.

Personally, I am in week 2 of a 16 week sustanon cycle with a dbol pulse on workout days for weeks 1-5. After week 5 I'll be starting hCG for weeks 6-12 at 250iu E3D and weeks 6-14 Formex at 50mg ED. PCT will start 2 weeks after last inject and be 4 wks clomid followed by low dose nolva and adex. Sustain alpha from PP and post cycle support from AI will also be used as well as creatine. Also, cortisol control is important and for that I go with lean xtreme.

 

[manofbushido]

clomid does work well as an LH mimicker, so it will do what you are talking about yes

Thanks EJL
Like I was saying earlier I have seen posts about this.

Have also read about some of the benefits of not totally dumping your estro with AIs during cycle.

How does Torem produce the results it does in regards to reversing testicular atrophy?
It does have the ~same protective properties as nolva, but is less toxic.
Seems just like an interesting topic to me.

 

[EasyEJL]

hCG is the only real LH mimicker IMO. hCG is a hormone produced by pregnant women to supplement LH levels in their body, which prevents their bodies from breaking down muscle tissue, e.g. the fetus. In males it stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.

HCG definitely does a better job of it than clomid, but HCG at too high a dose or for too long can suppress natural LH levels too...

 

[manofbushido]

Check this out if you can.
Számel, I., Hindy, I., Hajba, A., Kangas, L., & Lammintausta, R. (1999). Effect of toremifene (TOR) on the gonadotropins and prolactin in advanced breast cancer patients. European Journal of Cancer, 35(Supplement 4), S328-S328.

Results: TOR sensitized the pituitary (HP) to the action of the gonadotropins:
FSH and LH release showed a tendency to increase during
therapy. LH release was significantly increased in the responders.

Small cohort group, but almost all of these type studies are.

 

[EasyEJL]

yes but just because it raised those in women with breast cancer is not a guarantee it does so in men

 

[manofbushido]

yes but just because it raised those in women with breast cancer is not a guarantee it does so in men

Wasn't trying to give some kind of guarantee to the idea. Just some scientific studies done that suggests TOR can increase LH/FSH.
How many of these studies includes men?
Lots of Nandrolone studies use HIV patients. How many of us have HIV, but still look at these studies for some understanding of how the drug works.

I will look for TOR studies that include male athletes and promoting anabolism,
but you know that these kinds of studies are hardly ever made with this classification of drug.

Just to clarify I am NOT about to start using this all willy nilly while on cycle. Just trying to promote some intellectual discourse.

 

[EasyEJL]

Oh definitely, but clomid + hcg both have some male studies, I can't recall seeing any on torem. I hope there are, would be nice to know

 

[manofbushido]

Oh definitely, but clomid + hcg both have some male studies, I can't recall seeing any on torem. I hope there are, would be nice to know

Good call on clomid and hcg. I haven't run into one study yet that doesn't use "postmenopausal women". Its like those bitches have nothing else to do. lol

I will keep digging just for the hell of it.
Maybe someone will beat me to it.

I do find it strange that out of all the papers I've read so far none of them list clomid as a SERM or even mention it? Two had a list of SERMS in four distinct classes. Listed a lot of them, but no clomid.:wtf1:

I was searching for research on TOR sp. and not clomid, but tamox and rolox came up along with droves of others.

 

[manofbushido]

Endocrine mechanism of action of toremifene at the level of the central nervous system in advanced breast cancer patients
Cancer chemotherapy and pharmacology: 1998, vol. 42, no3, pp. 241-246 (22 ref.)
SZAMEL I. (1) ; HINDY I. (1) ; BUDAI B. (1) ; KANGAS L. (2) ; HAJBA A. (2) ; LAMMINTAUSTA R. (2) ;


Results: The drug sensitized the pituitary to the action of the gonadotrophins; the LHRH-induced FSH and LH release showed a considerably increasing tendency during the toremifene therapy. Estradiol levels decreased statistically significantly and SHBG levels showed a statistically significant increase. A decreased level of prolactin is the sign of an antiestrogenic effect of toremifene on the hypophysis and, as a result, provides evidence for a direct influence of toremifene upon the pituitary.


Sorry just another PMW study, but this one had some interesting findings about SHBG also.

 

[CrazyChemist]

HCG definitely does a better job of it than clomid, but HCG at too high a dose or for too long can suppress natural LH levels too...

Yes very true. I wasnt trying to disagree in terms of the effect is has on the body just more at a biomolecular level. hCG does more of a "mimicking" and like you said EJ, because of the bodies negative feedback loops, hCG on a long term will suppress natural LH.