4th week with Havoc, no weight gain...WTF?

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    4th week with Havoc, no weight gain...WTF?


    I'm on my fourth week of Havoc and I've experienced no weight gains. I started at 200lbs and I'm still there. I've been eating like horse, at over 350g of protein per day. My cycle is 20/30/30/30. Other supps include, White Flood, Purple Wraath, fish oil, green tea, multi, glucosamine, resveratrol, and flax seed oil.

    I've also been working out heavier and more frequently than ever.

    Not sure what the deal is.

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    How many calories are you consuming?
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    Weird question, but what color is your piss? If you're consuming that much protein, you need to eat lots of good foods and drink a lot of water. If you're pee is a freaking dark yellow/neon green, you should switch up the diet a bit. Hope this helps a little bit.
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    Your protien levels are good, but can you layout your general caloric intake....at 350g of protien a day that's still only 1400 calories. Clean carbs and Healthy fats are still essential to weight gain. Not that I need to beat the dead horse but you need to go beyond maintainance level + calories burned during workout to see any positive results. The only other piece of advice I could give you would maybe be to up to dose to 40 or 50mg. Epi is still mild and if your running it as a standalone at 200lbs 30mgs may not be enough for you.
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    Piss looks like Evian. Drinking water like it's going out of style.

    I'm starting to think it could be a calorie issue. How many calories should I have been taking?

    I hope my cycle isn't wasted because of calories.
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    Our you running it for 6 weeks?
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    I'm on the recommended 4 weeks.
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    I'm on week 3 of epistane now at 40 mg and I haven't gained weight/strength or even felt a single thing...I've even gained a little fat b/c I've been eating more, but it's been pretty clean...lame...I had really high hopes for this cycle not to mention spent enough money on it...
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    how have your guys' workouts been? What kind of split did you follow? I'm looking to start my own epi cycle in a week or two and dont want to run into this sort of thing, any advice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    Piss looks like Evian. Drinking water like it's going out of style.

    I'm starting to think it could be a calorie issue. How many calories should I have been taking?

    I hope my cycle isn't wasted because of calories.
    there are a number of maintainance calorie calculators online if you google that phrase. figure out your maintance level, then add to whatever that number is. Remember to take into account how many calories you burn during workout. at the end of the day you still have to be on the plus side of your maintainance level to gain weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nparisi View Post
    I'm on week 3 of epistane now at 40 mg and I haven't gained weight/strength or even felt a single thing...I've even gained a little fat b/c I've been eating more, but it's been pretty clean...lame...I had really high hopes for this cycle not to mention spent enough money on it...
    That sounds like my experience with Epi, but at least I was getting better pumps and some vascularity. Couldn't gain strength for the life of me, and I gained about 5 pounds of fat from eating so muhc.

    The day i bridged into Superdrol, i started gaining weight and strength more rapidly than ever before in my life.

    My conclusion is a small portion of us are "nonresponders" to the epithios. Tough luck eh.

    If your response is anything like mine then give Superdrol or Pheraplex a try.
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    What is your BF%? How much time each day do you spend lifting? Are you doing any cardio? If so what type and how much?
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    I actually lost weight on e stane, and had horribly dry joints, like stated earlier maybe soem of us arent responders to this compund..I did howver like Unreal get great pumps and vascularity, and my overall physique looked better/harder...
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    Quote Originally Posted by searl12 View Post
    I actually lost weight on e stane, and had horribly dry joints, like stated earlier maybe soem of us arent responders to this compund..I did howver like Unreal get great pumps and vascularity, and my overall physique looked better/harder...
    I'm curious, did you gain any strength?

    I got a decent hardening of the muscles, but none of the anti-estrogen effects. I had no joint problems at all and don't think i looked much "drier"
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    I'm curious, did you gain any strength?

    I got a decent hardening of the muscles, but none of the anti-estrogen effects. I had no joint problems at all and don't think i looked much "drier"
    sht meant to say no strength gain really, maybe a bit...but I without a doubt looked harder and fuller...maybe the compunds purity is different from comapny to company.

    I used CEL E-STANE so obviously my product was quality, I DID get the anti E effect, in fact now that I think about it it worked quite well minus adding weight, but I didnt get body fat measured or anything like that so I am now of the belief that I gained muscle lost weight.

    Only problem, a problem not yet seen by me with running compunds was by week 2 I had welt upon welt of acne, I felt great, euphoric almost as advertised...but people kept asking me what was wrong cause I usually have good skin. I also lost hair...without a doubt, again the only compund that did it to me, I have a insanely thick head of hair when I let it go too, no history of baldness...nothing, i ended up only going 3 weeks due to these sides.

    To the op maybe you should try another companies epi, I am a firm believer in CEL ( I do not work for them) and I am quite sure I will use this again.

    By the way i never went over 30mg every day and I weigh 220lbs, alot of which I think I carry in my legs.

    sorry my response is kind of all over the place and not organized.
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    to add to this as well my resaearch shows me the true magic with this compound begins at week 3--4, maybe you just need to be more patient, christ im getting amped to do a 5 weeker, something like 30/30/30/30/40/40 maybe a 6th at 50 but I really do not think 50 is necessary with this compund, acne and shedding would be unbearable for me.
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    interesting read. obviously all of this is anecdotal, but i'll add my experience to the thread.

    On week 5 of 10/20/20/20/30 and had great results. Strength kicked in noticeably during week 2. Great intensity in the gym. Vascularity and pumps up. Harder, drier. Have gained 8 lbs. and at least look like i've lost bf. Not much for sides. Lower back pumps. Very hungry. Started at 200 lbs.

    I'm buying at least 1 more bottle to stash away for next spring. love this stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    That sounds like my experience with Epi, but at least I was getting better pumps and some vascularity. Couldn't gain strength for the life of me, and I gained about 5 pounds of fat from eating so muhc.

    The day i bridged into Superdrol, i started gaining weight and strength more rapidly than ever before in my life.

    My conclusion is a small portion of us are "nonresponders" to the epithios. Tough luck eh.

    If your response is anything like mine then give Superdrol or Pheraplex a try.
    I have been looking more vascular but that's about it. I am definately experiencing the dry joints..I just ran out of fish oil too. Phera was next on my list...it would only be my second cycle not sure if I'm ready for SD. I don't feel shutdown at all from this cycle and I'm debating whether or not to even take the SERM (nolva) but I think I will just to be safe.
    Unreal, how harsh was phera for you?


    To the other comment about my workout it is:
    Mon:Back
    Tues:Chest
    Wed:Legs
    Thurs:Shoulders
    Fri:Arms
    Weekends off
    Usually sets of 8-12 then end with a heavy set of around 6 (totaling no more than 4 sets, 3 exercises per body part)
    Cardio is 5 min light before workout every day and about 2 hours of ice hockey per week.
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    I did a epi cycle for a month ago, I thought the epi is very good but It did nothing for me, maybe 4-5 pounds gain and no strenght gains at all, no pumps. Really bad PH. I eat very well under the cycle and haved all the support supplements but It did nothing.

    I did H-drol and Jungle warware cycle, those rocks man. Good gains in strenght and weight.

    So maybe like somone here in AM say you ca be epi non responder. I think epi donīt work for everybody, It seems like fifty fifty chans to work.

    I got better result with Reversitol for PCT than epi.
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    I just did the math and I'm taking in at least 4000 calories per day. I spend at least an hour and a half at the gym, working out intensely. Not doing much cardio, as I'll leave that for my cutting phase.

    I think I've had some strength gains, but nothing dramatic. I'm gonna up my Havoc dose to 40 for this final week and hope for the best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    I just did the math and I'm taking in at least 4000 calories per day. I spend at least an hour and a half at the gym, working out intensely. Not doing much cardio, as I'll leave that for my cutting phase.

    I think I've had some strength gains, but nothing dramatic. I'm gonna up my Havoc dose to 40 for this final week and hope for the best.
    g/l man! I'm hopin for something for my final week as well...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    I'm starting to think it could be a calorie issue. How many calories should I have been taking?
    Don't take this the wrong way, but just hearing you say this means you weren't ready to use steroids.

    even with this

    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    I just did the math and I'm taking in at least 4000 calories per day.
    its kind of meaningless because what is relevant is how many more calories you are taking in now while trying to bulk than what you take in normally.

    plus particularly with fats actually measuring with spoons/cups/scale is critical to being accurate, its easy to be 1 tablespoon off per serving in estimates on fat, which is 150 cal.


    So if you didn't gain lean mass, and didn't gain fat, and scale reads the same, you weren't eating enough whatever the amount you are eating is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way, but just hearing you say this means you weren't ready to use steroids.

    even with this



    its kind of meaningless because what is relevant is how many more calories you are taking in now while trying to bulk than what you take in normally.

    plus particularly with fats actually measuring with spoons/cups/scale is critical to being accurate, its easy to be 1 tablespoon off per serving in estimates on fat, which is 150 cal.


    So if you didn't gain lean mass, and didn't gain fat, and scale reads the same, you weren't eating enough whatever the amount you are eating is.
    I'm eating A LOT more than usual and taking more proteins than usual. How much more can I possibly eat?
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    If you aren't gaining fat either, then the answer is "more". Really mass gains are a function of taking in more calories than you are using, and having enough protein to build the muscle. Unless you really weigh and measure most of your food, its really easy to be a good bit off. I've found people as far as (in 1 case) 5000 calories off for the day but normally 300-800 is realistic. Is it possible that you've reduced fat intake what raising carb + protein intake so that your net calories isn't that much higher? Or with you working out longer and harder than normally you are burning the excess calories up? An easy way to add ~500 healthy cals a day is just to throw 1tbsp of natural peanut butter into each of 3-4 shakes if you are drinking that many.
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    I'm already crapping at least five times a day and I have enough gas to obliterate Afghanistan. Maybe my metabolism is too fast.
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    how about laying out a full day's worth of what you eat, with times and as close to measurements as you can get. that will help
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    8AM- Protein Shake
    8:45AM- Bowl of cereal and cup of cottage cheese
    11AM- Protein bar
    1PM- Lunch (grilled chicken, beef, etc.)
    4PM- Tuna or peanut butter sandwich
    6PM- Pre workout shake
    8PM- Post workout shake
    10PM- Dinner (grilled chicken, beef, etc)
    12PM- Protein Shake
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    Quote Originally Posted by nparisi View Post
    I have been looking more vascular but that's about it. I am definately experiencing the dry joints..I just ran out of fish oil too. Phera was next on my list...it would only be my second cycle not sure if I'm ready for SD. I don't feel shutdown at all from this cycle and I'm debating whether or not to even take the SERM (nolva) but I think I will just to be safe.
    Unreal, how harsh was phera for you?


    To the other comment about my workout it is:
    Mon:Back
    Tues:Chest
    Wed:Legs
    Thurs:Shoulders
    Fri:Arms
    Weekends off
    Usually sets of 8-12 then end with a heavy set of around 6 (totaling no more than 4 sets, 3 exercises per body part)
    Cardio is 5 min light before workout every day and about 2 hours of ice hockey per week.
    Phera is good to me, i've run up to 50mg. At 50mg i got nip sensitivity (went away quickly tho), so i think 40mg is the sweet spot. Only other side I got was a few back pumps, not too bad at all.
    The mass gains are pretty decent (not as much as Superdrol though) and the strength is pretty nice (again much less than Superdrol). What i noticed in my 2 phera runs is that the strength gains come very late in the cycle.

    Next time, i'm running it for 6 weeks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    8AM- Protein Shake
    8:45AM- Bowl of cereal and cup of cottage cheese
    11AM- Protein bar
    1PM- Lunch (grilled chicken, beef, etc.)
    4PM- Tuna or peanut butter sandwich
    6PM- Pre workout shake
    8PM- Post workout shake
    10PM- Dinner (grilled chicken, beef, etc)
    12PM- Protein Shake
    I'd double check your caloric intake. If you're consuming more than you're burning, you'll gain weight even without the Havoc. Besides, from what you listed, it doesn't look like 4000kcal, but I could be mistaken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logo View Post
    I'd double check your caloric intake. If you're consuming more than you're burning, you'll gain weight even without the Havoc. Besides, from what you listed, it doesn't look like 4000kcal, but I could be mistaken.
    I added the calories based on the labels and other charts. I should note that I go double on the scoops for the shakes, and use milk with some.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    I'm on my fourth week of Havoc and I've experienced no weight gains. I started at 200lbs and I'm still there. I've been eating like horse, at over 350g of protein per day. My cycle is 20/30/30/30. Other supps include, White Flood, Purple Wraath, fish oil, green tea, multi, glucosamine, resveratrol, and flax seed oil.

    I've also been working out heavier and more frequently than ever.

    Not sure what the deal is.


    Maybe the reversatrol brought him into an early PCT.

    LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!











    I know he meant the grape seed extract and not the PCT product from I-Force.
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    Quote Originally Posted by droppinplates View Post
    Maybe the reversatrol brought him into an early PCT.

    LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!


    I know he meant the grape seed extract and not the PCT product from I-Force.
    I laid off it this week just in case.
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    Maybe you have an overactive thyroid. In any case, if you're not gaining weight just eat more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logo View Post
    Maybe you have an overactive thyroid. In any case, if you're not gaining weight just eat more.
    I used to be a skinny kid and it took a bunch of years to put on muscle. I think it's just harder for me to put on weight. If I eat anymore, I'm gonna go broke and I'll never get off the toilet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    8AM- Protein Shake
    8:45AM- Bowl of cereal and cup of cottage cheese
    11AM- Protein bar
    1PM- Lunch (grilled chicken, beef, etc.)
    4PM- Tuna or peanut butter sandwich
    6PM- Pre workout shake
    8PM- Post workout shake
    10PM- Dinner (grilled chicken, beef, etc)
    12PM- Protein Shake
    IMO, this diet needs CONSIDERABLE work. Not only to gain weight, but just to be healthy! Not a vegetable or a complex carb in SIGHT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coachese View Post
    IMO, this diet needs CONSIDERABLE work. Not only to gain weight, but just to be healthy! Not a vegetable or a complex carb in SIGHT!
    I have veggies with lunch and dinner and I eat fruits. I just didn't list them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon75 View Post
    I have veggies with lunch and dinner and I eat fruits. I just didn't list them.
    I'm no expert (seriously), but I would have thought that if someone asked you to post your diet, you'd of posted EVERYthing you ate? It kinda of defeats the purpose of listing what you ate if you only list 1/2 of it and omit serving size.

    Good luck in the future brohamus!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coachese View Post
    I'm no expert (seriously), but I would have thought that if someone asked you to post your diet, you'd of posted EVERYthing you ate? It kinda of defeats the purpose of listing what you ate if you only list 1/2 of it and omit serving size.

    Good luck in the future brohamus!

    Yup... It would really help if you listed everything. Also your Weight, BF% and a workout sample. Are you doing cardio?
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