How much test will shut you down?

[gobus]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]A couple of questions...

1.) How much test enan. in a week will shut you down?

2.) Let's say 150mg a week will shut you down. Can I use 100mg of test enan a week during PCT with nolva to keep me from "crashing" and it won't shut me down?


Any advice/input appreciated.[/font]

Great board you have here by the way. Been looking at it for a couple of weeks. Intelligent mods and Chemo seems like a genius! I'm hoping to get my M.S. in chemistry in about 5 years. First year at college, recently discharged from the Marine Corps. Hope to be posting here a lot.

 

[sifu]

The amount of test you are asking about is HRT range. No AAS during PCT it is that simple.

It will shut you down even worse.

 

[size]

The avg. range of natural test production daily falls into the range of 4-8mg. Adding exogenous testoterone will cause HPTA suppression.

 

[Matthew D]

I have agree with size and sifu about no outside test during PCT.... you will never get your natural test production back if you keep on with the test..

 

[ManBeast]

I think another problem is that for PCT to be effective (nolva/clomid) all exogenous hormones need to be removed, otherwise the body will not start producing it's own. Like shocking it back into action almost.

ManBeast

 

[WYD02]

Im a little slow responding to this one, but what I have found with recovery is that tapering yourself works well. Most people take their last poke at full dosage and then start PCT.... What about your normal 10 weeks @ 500mg test lets say...then drop it to 250mg for a week, then another 250mg after two weeks, you get the idea...it extends the cycle length yes but the idea isn't all that unfounded if you look at the way people use T3 etc.. From experience (both a test and myself being dumb) I did something similar with no PCT and found recovery time was minimal. Now, I haven't put a bunch of thought into this yet as to how it might effect gains, retaining gains, any sort of health implications etc...just an observation and idea at this point..

 

[ManBeast]

Tapering long esters can be very tricky is the problem, and it is not advised to start PCT immediately after the last poke of a long ester. For example, with enan, it is generally reccomended to start PCT 2 weeks after the last poke. I prefer to taper the esters, by switching to a low dose of prop for the last 2 weeks, and then starting my pct immediately after that.

ManBeast

 

[kmac6225]

WYD - my question about your post is that if you're natty test is already shut down from 500mg and won't begin to produce on its own until its "shocked" (thx mb) back into producing on its own, then what good would tapering off to 250mg, 250mg etc do?

I dont mean for that to sound snotty or arrogant...just a question

 

[WYD02]

WYD - my question about your post is that if you're natty test is already shut down from 500mg and won't begin to produce on its own until its "shocked" (thx mb) back into producing on its own, then what good would tapering off to 250mg, 250mg etc do?

I dont mean for that to sound snotty or arrogant...just a question

No, I totally understand the question which is why I added my little disclaimer at the end that I haven't thought about it too much, but rather, it was an observation. I see what your saying as well...if your shut down, your shut down...whats the difference? Like, I was saying, I'd have to re-read some stuff, but I'd imagine you recover faster from 100mg a week of test that if your using 500mg. Now, anytime you see people mention a low dosage like that for a cycle, you hear, "that's not enough, bump it up..thats too close to HRT". If size is right on his data of 4-8mg of natty test per day, even at a hundred mg, your just about DOUBLING your natural production of test. Thus, even as you taper off, you will still be highly anabolic. It's all about recovery...would you recover faster from a lower dosage as opposed to a higher dosage?

 

[CrazyNut]

i read somewhere that tapering with test is not neccessary as recovery time is not affected.
I think i read it on an article at steroidology, not 100% sure. Again, this is just heresay so take it for what its worth. The reason i say this is because once the HPTA is shut down, as long as there is exogenous test in your system, it will not rebound. You have to completely eliminate exogenous test. So it doesnt really matter if your last shot was 500mg or 100mg, all the exogenous test ahs to leave the system before the HPTA can begin to rebound.

 

[sifu]

I read that somewhere as well.

 

[WYD02]

i read somewhere that tapering with test is not neccessary as recovery time is not affected.
I think i read it on an article at steroidology, not 100% sure. Again, this is just heresay so take it for what its worth. The reason i say this is because once the HPTA is shut down, as long as there is exogenous test in your system, it will not rebound. You have to completely eliminate exogenous test. So it doesnt really matter if your last shot was 500mg or 100mg, all the exogenous test ahs to leave the system before the HPTA can begin to rebound.

Ok, and that makes sense. As long as there is test in the system, HPTA won't rebound, but lets look at it this way... If the same logic applies to T3...that natural thyroid hormone product wont begin until all endogenous t3 is out of the system, why bother tapering it? It's to limit the hit it has on your body. Its still effective on its way down to 25mcg, but when it hits that level, we are hoping for a faster rebound to our normal production correct?

 

[ManBeast]

Yes, but evidence points to the body restoring t3 production once it is below a certain level. I'm starting to think that proper HCG use throughout a cycle will make PCT immensly easier without having to deal with this tapering down to prevent a hard crash.

ManBeast

 

[Knight1811]

I read that somewhere as well.

I'm not sure where you folks might have read it, but W. LLewellyn in Anabolics 2002 / Anabolics 2004 writes that the idea of tappering is "extremely flawed."

Llewelleyn states "in order for the production of testosterone to be fully restored, the body will really need to recognize an androgen deficit, not just a drop in steroid dosage (Anabolic 2004, W. Llewellyn, pg 40-41)."


Knight1811

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Rebounding is not dose dependent, its more about time "on". Your suppressed the same at 100mg compared to 1g/week. The analogy to T3 is not a good one because you taper T3 to avoid going from a very fast metabolism to a very slow one to avoid fat gain. You could easily just stop altogether but you would have to watch your diet and every calorie you take in. The recovery will happen the saem whether you taper or stop it at the highest dose.

 

[maggmaster]

First of all Bill Llwewlleyn is kind of a moron, his book is flawed in many aspects. Second the idea of tapering has become less popular and discouraged because anectdotally people saw no difference in recovery. I dont think it has anything to do with medical studies to the contrary since most medical studies are done with much lower doses tha we are talking about. The idea of supression being absolute and exogenous hormones being supressive in any amount seems oversimplified to me but we as of yet have been unable to devise a method by which we can continue hormone use while recovering natural production. Even with t3 the taper is more to allow your body to begin readying itself for a period of low thyroid hormone then actually allowing recovery. The thyroid recovers MUCH more quicly than the hpta but i have seen no evidence that it can recover under the influence of exogenous hormones. In short don't take any test while you are trying to recover. If you are waiting for a long ester to clear your system use prop or an oral to bridge the gap between last shot and PCT. I wish we had an anabolic that was not hormonal that would be ideal.... or at least one thats not potentially deadly or super expensive.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

First of all Bill Llwewlleyn is kind of a moron, his book is flawed in many aspects. .

He's not a moron. Write several books on anabolics, develop different hormonal supplements and own your company before you call him a moron. You can disgree wiuth him all you like but he's far from a moron.

 

[WYD02]

Rebounding is not dose dependent, its more about time "on". Your suppressed the same at 100mg compared to 1g/week. The analogy to T3 is not a good one because you taper T3 to avoid going from a very fast metabolism to a very slow one to avoid fat gain. You could easily just stop altogether but you would have to watch your diet and every calorie you take in. The recovery will happen the saem whether you taper or stop it at the highest dose.

"T3 is not a good one because you taper T3 to avoid going from a very fast metabolism to a very slow one to avoid fat gain"...... Look, I'll have to explain to you over the phone how this is the exact same idea. I've ran this past a few people now....It's really hard to explain in text I guess which really usually isnt the case for me! damn you know me... There is alot into it that really doesnt necessarily have the backing (scientifically test wise) or the consent from many cyclers, but the logical foundation to back it up.

Thanks

 

[azgymrat]

My understanding is that test production is controled by blood levels of test. When blood levels drop below your natural baseline the testes produce more, above and they stop. Seems if they are consistently below where your body wants them to be natural production will start up again (in time). Problem is one shot with 75mg or 125mg or almost whatever puts you back up over natural baseline levels again and production is shutdown again. Hard to do a IM dose that will not do this, perhaps a transdermal 4AD where dose can be much, much lower and easily controled. No matter what though keeping gains will be very difficult once you are below you baseline.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

"T3 is not a good one because you taper T3 to avoid going from a very fast metabolism to a very slow one to avoid fat gain"...... Look, I'll have to explain to you over the phone how this is the exact same idea. I've ran this past a few people now....It's really hard to explain in text I guess which really usually isnt the case for me! damn you know me... There is alot into it that really doesnt necessarily have the backing (scientifically test wise) or the consent from many cyclers, but the logical foundation to back it up.

Thanks

What logical foundation? They are two completely different things have completely different mechanisms of action. You can use T3 without effecting your thyroid at low doses. You can't do that with exogenous hormones unless you under your notruial threshold which is about 4-8mg/day.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

My understanding is that test production is controled by blood levels of test. When blood levels drop below your natural baseline the testes produce more, above and they stop. Seems if they are consistently below where your body wants them to be natural production will start up again (in time). Problem is one shot with 75mg or 125mg or almost whatever puts you back up over natural baseline levels again and production is shutdown again. Hard to do a IM dose that will not do this, perhaps a transdermal 4AD where dose can be much, much lower and easily controled. No matter what though keeping gains will be very difficult once you are below you baseline.

Its much more complicated than just blood levels. When you use Fina alone your test levels are bottomed out yet your HTPA is still inhibited. You can also be suppressed by many other things including estrogen, progesterone, etc....There is no delivery in which you can trick the body into thinking your not "on" no matter how much of a slow delivery it is. Its not just one route either, there are several pathways in which suppression occurs. Its not a black and white issue. Steroids metabolize on those metabolites are also suppressive. Steroids have binding affinities and receptor binding times in which suppression is prolonged even though the half-life is short in some drugs. There are just so manys way to inhibit the HTPA with exogenous hormones that have nothing to do with that actual steroid or PH itself.

 

[azgymrat]

Bobo, My argument made sense in my own simplistic mind (at least before 7AM and one cup of coffee). Thanks for setting me straight on it though.

 

[maggmaster]

I guess moron was a little bit of a strong word I diagree with a lot of what he said in his books and I disagree with the positions he takes involving the media. His supplements are fine achievments and i feel bad for writing what I did. In my defense I was in a bad mood and Ive read and posted on this exact same argument about a million times I know youve posted a lot on it to and I know dont have to read it if I dont want to but Im kind of a comoulsive post reader so.... anyway other than that i stick by my statements.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

No prob at all maggmaster.


Azgymrat: Understood. You weren't wrong by any means, you just simplified it. THere is nothing wrong with that but to get a better understanding of why tapering, bridges or anything that suggests low doses won't inhibit the HTPA, the bigger picture needs to be looked at. In this case there are numerous pathways to inhibition.

 

[maggmaster]

Is the whole process even totally understood yet? I still have not seen a complete workup on All of the methods of supression. I would assume that somewhere medically there is documentation on this and I would love to read it but as far as I know the majority of what we know is anectdotal or based on individual studies which we have compiled into a sort of knowledge base.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Nope. It also depends on the hormone being used. Like Dbol metabolizes into 17 methyl E2 which is proably more suppressive than Dbol itself. Then you have Tren which binds to the AR very strongly and is thought to be the reason it suppress so much. Then you have the DHT dervitatives and so on...So there are many factors that go into then just the half-life.

 

[WYD02]

Is the whole process even totally understood yet? I still have not seen a complete workup on All of the methods of supression. I would assume that somewhere medically there is documentation on this and I would love to read it but as far as I know the majority of what we know is anectdotal or based on individual studies which we have compiled into a sort of knowledge base.

This is kind of my point.... we don't understand it fully nor has it been documented (at least, I haven't seen it yet). Alas, we can only work with what we have, but just as we don't know all the methods of supression, I can guarantee there is alot we don't know about recovery as well. Hell, people still argue about clomid, nolva, hcg. Bill L. wrote an extensive article on it a year or so back. I'm trying to put the logic in place but its difficult for me. We know that certain substances, and the length that we use them, make our body react different in terms of shut down and time it takes to recover (I.E. - the longer your on, the more you'll be supressed). I ran it past a friend and we kind of drew out graphs based on natural test and supplemented test levels, how they peak, trough, converge, diverge, etc...all this while trying to consider different esters. Currently, the logic I've seen is that any time there is exogenous amount of test in your system, your natural product will not begin to recover. Ok, so then we would have to agree with this statement:

100mg of test for 10 weeks will be just as supressive as 500mg at 10 weeks. Since we are talking about half lifes primarily, it will take the same amount of time for 100mg to dissipate as 500mg...its just different blood level concentrations. Ok, now I pose this question, would you agree that you will recover faster from using 500mg of test after 8 weeks than you will at 10 weeks? Most people say, no, you will be totally shut down at 8 weeks so why not run it the extra two? If you agree with THAT, then at what point do we become shut down? The way I see it, even with an ester like cyp or enth which takes longer for blood concentrations to build up, as soon as more than 8mg are detected in the body, your natural production of testosterone would immediately halt (at least, thats the theory right?)....we know this doesn't appear to be the case though with other hormones and test. Look at people who use 1-test...shut down doesn't happen for until what...3 weeks, 4 weeks usually? The idea I'm getting at is that I don't see it as an ON or OFF switch...I see gradual incline and decline which then logically makes me wonder if it is BOTH dosage and length of use dependent for any hormone.

WYD

 

[Dwight Schrute]

This is kind of my point.... we don't understand it fully nor has it been documented (at least, I haven't seen it yet). Alas, we can only work with what we have, but just as we don't know all the methods of supression, I can guarantee there is alot we don't know about recovery as well. Hell, people still argue about clomid, nolva, hcg. Bill L. wrote an extensive article on it a year or so back. I'm trying to put the logic in place but its difficult for me. We know that certain substances, and the length that we use them, make our body react different in terms of shut down and time it takes to recover (I.E. - the longer your on, the more you'll be supressed). I ran it past a friend and we kind of drew out graphs based on natural test and supplemented test levels, how they peak, trough, converge, diverge, etc...all this while trying to consider different esters. Currently, the logic I've seen is that any time there is exogenous amount of test in your system, your natural product will not begin to recover. Ok, so then we would have to agree with this statement:

100mg of test for 10 weeks will be just as supressive as 500mg at 10 weeks. Since we are talking about half lifes primarily, it will take the same amount of time for 100mg to dissipate as 500mg...its just different blood level concentrations. Ok, now I pose this question, would you agree that you will recover faster from using 500mg of test after 8 weeks than you will at 10 weeks? Most people say, no, you will be totally shut down at 8 weeks so why not run it the extra two? If you agree with THAT, then at what point do we become shut down? The way I see it, even with an ester like cyp or enth which takes longer for blood concentrations to build up, as soon as more than 8mg are detected in the body, your natural production of testosterone would immediately halt (at least, thats the theory right?)....we know this doesn't appear to be the case though with other hormones and test. Look at people who use 1-test...shut down doesn't happen for until what...3 weeks, 4 weeks usually? The idea I'm getting at is that I don't see it as an ON or OFF switch...I see gradual incline and decline which then logically makes me wonder if it is BOTH dosage and length of use dependent for any hormone.

WYD

I don't see your logic at all. You seem stuck on the half-lifes of testosterone alone and don't even take into account that increased levels of estrogen suppress. Increased levels of DHT suppress. Increased levels of progesterone suppress. Do you know their half-lives and their thresholds? There are so many factors you are not taking into account. Just because its FULLY understood doesn't mean the majority is not.

Its not just an exogenous amount of test. Its an exogenous amount of any hormone. THats the difference. With T3 your working with one in which it doesn't even shut your thyroid down. With steroids your working with many different kinds, methods and metabolites that ALL have a negtaive impact on the HTPA and can bascially stop all testosterone from being produced by Leydig cells. THere are cases of perment hypogonadism because of streoid abuse. The studies on T3 show thyroid fucntion to return to noraml after 25+ years of exogenous administration. Its comparing apples to oranges.

As for your comparison of 8-10 weeks, recovery would be about the same IMO if the same exact protocols are followed. LH returns within days whether your on for 8 weeks or 6 months. Its the response of the testes to LH pulses which causes the delay. Usually the longer your on, the longer the delay. At least thats what SWALE see's with his patients.

And yes much of this has been documented. Just do a search for the Clomid studies reversing hypogonadism in patients who abused steroids.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bill L. wrote an extensive article on it a year or so back.

Look at people who use 1-test...shut down doesn't happen for until what...3 weeks, 4 weeks usually? The idea I'm getting at is that I don't see it as an ON or OFF switch...I see gradual incline and decline which then logically makes me wonder if it is BOTH dosage and length of use dependent for any hormone.

WYD

That article is flawed.

3 weeks? No way. You can see suppression the first week!

Well it isn't an ON or OFF switch. I agree. Its more like its:

ON: When many criteria and/or steps add up. Its a multiple step process that has many pathways and mechanisms and one leads to another that leads to another, that triggers that one and so and so forth. Everything needs to add up. (OR you use HCG )

OFF: When exogenous hormones are present that are above normal levels. Thats it.

 

[WYD02]

I don't see your logic at all. You seem stuck on the half-lifes of testosterone alone and don't even take into account that increased levels of estrogen suppress. Increased levels of DHT suppress. Increased levels of progesterone suppress. Do you know their half-lives and their thresholds? There are so many factors you are not taking into account. Just because its FULLY understood doesn't mean the majority is not.

I dont think your understanding me. I am not questioning that there is more than just the hormone presence that leads to supression. I am not questioning the bodies altering level of DHT, prog, and estrogen and their influence in supression. But you summed it up with your last statement "Exogenous = off" What I'm saying is that by tapering, you may be able to influence recovery since I don't believe shutdown to be a matter of simply exogenous hormones above normal amounts. Thus, my statement about people gaging their shutdown based on length of time - simply by the FEELING... You stated "3 weeks? No way. You can see suppression the first week!" I am question the "SEE" part. If our body secretes testosterone throughout the day, up to 8mg, then your response to it, lets say in terms of libido (which is how we guage our shutdown), is dictated by the continuous release in the testes. Now, the moment your hormone levels of exogenous test, lets say, get ABOVE your 8mg level, your testes are supposed to halt production. Since testosterone secretion is a daily and for the most part, ongoing thing, it should only take until the next day to notice massive supression since you've stopped producing entirely. This is clearly not the case through feedback.. Notice how people don't report major signs of libido loss until usually around that 3 week part. This is why I brought up non-testosterone hormones as a measure to guage libido (since we know test will bias this). Thus, my point overall...that there APPEARS to be more than just ON or OFF.....more so that it is gradual shutdown and that it MAY also be dosage dependent which gets back to my main point of faster recovery through tapering levels... Do you get what I'm saying now? I understand there is more to the equation in terms of what keeps you shut down and the altering levels that dictate how long one might be supressed.... I am throwing out an idea here...yet to really look into all that much and it seems other people don't bother either ....PS - forget the T3 argument, I see how its flawed..

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I still don't see how tapering influeces recovery at all. I don't base anything on "feeling". People have reported blood tests in which they are shut dwon, not how they feel. SWALE has also seen complete shutdown on as little as 100mg/week of test. Libido means nothing. You can have a low libido yet high levels of testosterone. Libido is more based on estrogen and DHT levels than levels of testosterone. This is also a reason why some SI's destrpy your libido because it eliminated estrogen even though test levels would go higher. You can't base anything on libido. There basically is no logical or scietific explanation that will support tapering (as far as recovery). You best best is to it at full dosage for the entire time while running HCG in short bursts throughout the cycle to keep testes functioning during your cycle. That will ensure the factest recovery possible.

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

I still don't see how tapering influeces recovery at all. I don't base anything on "feeling". People have reported blood tests in which they are shut dwon, not how they feel. SWALE has also seen complete shutdown on as little as 100mg/week of test. Libido means nothing. You can have a low libido yet high levels of testosterone. Libido is more based on estrogen and DHT levels than levels of testosterone. This is also a reason why some SI's destrpy your libido because it eliminated estrogen even though test levels would go higher. You can't base anything on libido. There basically is no logical or scietific explanation that will support tapering (as far as recovery). You best best is to it at full dosage for the entire time while running HCG in short bursts throughout the cycle to keep testes functioning during your cycle. That will ensure the factest recovery possible.

Bobo is the man!!! Read and learn people!!!

You said SI.. did you mean AI?

I am thinking of using liquidex. I didnt think of the libido problems, Thanks.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Nope, SI. Suicide Inhibitor (exemestane)

 

[gobus]

Wow, a lot of info here. Thanks for helping me out. I was confused as on another board someone said that 100mg of Test wouldn't shut you down that much, but after reading this it makes sense that it would. Saving all this info to my hard drive for future reference.