goood cutting cycle? or not?
- 01-26-2004, 11:02 PM
goood cutting cycle? or not?
week1: 500mg test prop+ 50mg winny+ECA
week2: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+eca
week3: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+ clen/t3
week4: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+clen/t3
week5: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+ t3+ NYC
week6:500mg test prop+50mg winny+ NYC
week7: 40 mg nolva
week8: 40 mg nolva
week9: 20 mg nolva
what do u think guys???
this is my first cycle so i want to keep it simple
- 01-27-2004, 09:12 AM
Bro, a few stats would be helpful:
Age, height, weight, b/f %, training experience.
Provided you have everything else (diet, training, etc) in order, I'd recommend 400-500 mg/wk test for 8-10 weeks. IMO, Cyp or Enanth would be a better choice, but if you don't mind EOD injections Prop would be ok too.
- 01-27-2004, 12:47 PM
191 lb, 5,9 . 11% bf, trainning for 3 years now. i will be cutting so i will consume 2700 cals. i do HIT trainning 4 times a week. this is my first cycle so i want to see how my body react to AAS, i think 6 weeks is good.
so is it good?
01-27-2004, 12:53 PM
Looks fine to me bro, you should see some nice results with that cycle and HIIT style cardio your doing. Just keep diet in check and good things will happen. Good luck and keep us posted.
01-28-2004, 08:53 AM
looks goood to me also, but you could run that test a little longer IMO, maybe 8-10 weeks. It's actually very similar to my cutting cycle I'm starting soon
01-28-2004, 09:04 AM
I don't know, to me test doesn't qualify as a cutter. Why not do EQ and winny, or add some prov into it?
01-28-2004, 11:22 AM
What would make you say such a thing??Originally Posted by sifu
01-28-2004, 11:28 AM
Active Life: 2-3 days
Drug Class: Anabolic/Androgenic Steroid (for injection)
Average Dose: Men 50-200 mg/day
Water Retention: Yes, high
High Blood Pressure: Yes
Liver Toxic: Low
DHT Conversion: Yes, high
Decrease HPTA function: Yes, severe
01-28-2004, 11:34 AM
week1: 500mg test prop+ 50mg winny+ECA
week2: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+eca
week3: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+ NYC
week4: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+NYC/t3
week5: 500mg test prop+50mg winny+ t3/CLEN
week6:500mg test prop+50mg winny+ t3/CLEN
that is what i would do instead bro , run the clen at the end , when u use clen and then use something which work on the adrenogenic receptors , ure working with downregulated receptors , so better to use clen at the end .
01-28-2004, 12:12 PM
thanx a lot raybravo. im going to run clen at the end as you recommended. do think adding 25mg prov at the last 2 weeks as SIFU recommended, will it do anything?. it doesn’t have any anabolic properties so i figured out it will be a waste, but would it help me with anything?Originally Posted by raybravo
01-28-2004, 12:15 PM
It will bind to the SHBG which will free up more free test. I was under the impression that it would help the Winny and test work better. I have read that on a lot of forums.
01-28-2004, 12:17 PM
no anabolic properties ,and i dont really see too much worth in running proviron at 25 mg bro . btw , sifu , winstrol itself reduces shbg levels effectively .
01-28-2004, 12:19 PM
01-28-2004, 12:28 PM
Posted by JGUNS at CEM
How winny and proviron will make your cycle kick ass
Really, only a very small amount of Testosterone exists as “free” testosterone. Free test is testosterone that capable of binding to the Androgen Receptor, which is where all the rest of the magic happens, and allows for the following benefits:
-Enhanced growth factor activity (e.g. GH, IGF-1, etc.)
-Enhanced activation of myogenic stem cells (i.e. satellite cells)
-Enhanced myonuclear number (to maintain nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio)
-Enhanced protein synthesis
-New myofiber formation
Testosterone binds at around 45% to what is known as Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), and about another 53% binds to proteins (albumin). The rest exists in a “free” state (about 2% if you did your math). Different variations of steroids also differ in the way in which they bind to proteins.
If one could unbind testosterone from SHBG by even a small percentage, it could make a big difference in the way that testosterone or other AAS exert their anabolic effects. Studies show that when testosterone is unbound from SHBG the “free” test does in fact exert greater effects than total T. As the following studies support:
Demisch K, and Nickelsen T. Distribution of testosterone in plasma proteins during replacement therapy with testosterone enanthate in patients suffering from hypogonadism Andrologia 1983;15 Spec No:536-41.
Gandar R. Interpretation of the blood level of a steroid Rev Fr Gynecol Obstet 1985 Aug-Sep;80(8-9):635-40.
Legrand E., et al. Osteoporosis in men: a potential role for the sex hormone binding globulin Bone 2001 Jul;29(1):90-5.
Longcope C., et al. Diet and sex hormone-binding globulin. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jan;85(1):293-296.
Valero-Politi J, and Fuentes-Arderiu X. Within- and between-subject biological variations of follitropin, lutropin, testosterone, and sex-hormone-binding globulin in men. Clin Chem 1993 Aug;39(8):1723-1725.
Proviron(1-Methyl Dihydrotestosterone) has been shown to bind with SHBG much more readily than test.
Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids: comparison of the binding to the androgen receptors in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to sex hormone-binding globulin.
Saartok T, Dahlberg E, Gustafsson JA.
It is unclear whether anabolic steroids act on skeletal muscle via the androgen receptor (AR) in this tissue, or whether there is a separate anabolic receptor. When several anabolic steroids were tested as competitors for the binding of [3H]methyltrienolone (MT; 17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-4,9,11-estratrien-3-one) to the AR in rat and rabbit skeletal muscle and rat prostate, respectively, MT itself was the most efficient competitor. 1 alpha-Methyl-5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (1 alpha-methyl-DHT; mesterolone) bound most avidly to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) [relative binding affinity (RBA) about 4 times that of DHT]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids bound strongly to the AR in skeletal muscle and prostate [ RBAs relative to that of MT: MT greater than 19-nortestosterone ( NorT ; nandrolone) greater than methenolone (17 beta-hydroxy-1-methyl-5 alpha-androst-1-en-3-one) greater than testosterone (T) greater than 1 alpha-methyl-DHT]. In other cases, AR binding was weak (RBA values less than 0.05): stanozolol (17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha- androstano [3,2-c]pyrazol-17 beta-ol), methanedienone (17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-1,4-androstadien-3-one), and fluoxymesterolone (9 alpha-fluoro-11 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-T). Other compounds had RBAs too low to be determined (e.g. oxymetholone (17 beta-hydroxy-2-hydroxymethylene-17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha-androstan-3-one) and ethylestrenol (17 alpha-ethyl-4- estren -17 beta-ol). The competition pattern was similar in muscle and prostate, except for a higher RBA of DHT in the prostate. The low RBA of DHT in muscle was probably due to the previously reported rapid reduction of its 3-keto function to metabolites, which did not bind to the AR [5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha, 17 beta-diol and its 3 beta-isomer (3 alpha- and 3 beta-adiol, respectively)]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids (only a few synthetic) bound to SHBG (1 alpha-methyl-DHT much greater than DHT greater than T greater than 3 beta-adiol greater than 3 alpha-adiol = 17 alpha-methyl-T greater than methenolone greater than methanedienone greater than stanozolol). The ratio of the RBA in rat muscle to that in the prostate (an estimate of the myotrophic potency of the compounds) was close to unity, varying only between about 0.4 and 1.7 in most cases.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)
Skalba P, Korfanty A, Mroczka W, Wojtowicz M. Related Articles
[Changes of SHBG concentrations in postmenopausal women]
Ginekol Pol. 2001 Dec;72(12A):1388-92. Polish.
Variations of sex hormone-binding globulin in thyroid dysfunction.
Brenta G, Schnitman M, Gurfinkiel M, Damilano S, Pierini A, Sinay I, Pisarev MA.
Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism, French Hospital, Buenos Aires, Argentina. firstname.lastname@example.org
With the aim of understanding the variations of the levels of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) in thyroid dysfunction, we studied the influence of factors that also modify SHBG, such as menopausal status, age, and body mass index (BMI) in women with hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism, both overt and subclinical. Statistical analysis was performed by means of analysis of variance (ANOVA), stepwise multiple regression, and partial correlation. The ANOVA showed a significant statistical difference among the means of SHBG of all groups (p<0.01). The difference was due to the group that included hyperthyroid women. Multiple regression analysis showed that the main factors influencing SHBG were BMI and age, except for the hyperthyroid group, where the most important independent variables were triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T4). Partial correlation controlling the effect of BMI and age showed no association between SHBG and the other variables in all groups except for the subclinical hyperthyroid and hyperthyroid, where we found a significant association between SHBG and T4 and T3. The premenopausal or postmenopausal status did not modify SHBG levels. When the patients are taken as a whole, BMI, age, T4, and T3 all have an association with SHBG levels according to the multiple regression analysis.
Determinants of sex hormone-binding globulin blood concentrations in premenopausal and postmenopausal women with different estrogen status. Virgilio-Menopause-Health Group.
Pasquali R, Vicennati V, Bertazzo D, Casimirri F, Pascal G, Tortelli O, Labate AM.
Department of Internal Medicine and Gastroenterology, University of Bologna, Italy
Just a quote: 2) SHBG values are correlated positively with estradiol and negatively with insulin and testosterone concentrations, but the predictive value of these variabiles on SHBG appears to be different in premenopause and postmenopause;
Here is a fun little fact: the level of SHBG can also be influenced by other factors. There is a direct relationship between the level of estrogen and thyroid hormones and the level of SHBG. Estrogen goes up, SHBG goes up. Estrogen goes down SHBG goes down. Same for Thyroid hormones triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T4). Also, there is a relationship with diet and insulin, but that is something I will save for later. Higher androgen levels due to AS administration has been shown to considerably lower levels of SHBG as well. The AS Winstrol (stanozolol) was shown in a 1989 study to lower levels of SHBG by 50% after oral administration.
Sex hormone-binding globulin response to the anabolic steroid stanozolol: evidence for its suitability as a biological androgen sensitivity test.
Sinnecker G, Kohler S.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Hamburg, West Germany.
Both the androgen-induced decline in serum sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels during puberty and the anabolic effect of exogenous testosterone are absent in patients with androgen insensitivity (testicular feminization). To determine whether the androgen-induced decline in serum SHBG could be used as a test of androgen sensitivity, we studied the effect of the anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol (17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha-androstano-[3,2-c]pyrazol) on serum SHBG in 25 control subjects, 3 patients with complete androgen insensitivity, and 4 patients with partial androgen insensitivity. Stanozolol was administered orally for 3 days (0.2 mg/kg.day); blood samples were taken before and 5, 6, 7, and 8 days after the beginning of the test for measurements of serum SHBG. The lowest value (i.e. the peak response) in each subject was used as the measure of the response to stanozolol. In the control subjects the mean nadir serum SHBG level was 51.6 +/- 5.9% (+/- SD) of the initial value (P less than 0.001). In the 4 patients with partial androgen insensitivity the nadir serum SHBG ranged from 73-89%, and in the 3 patients with complete androgen insensitivity it ranged from 93-97% of the initial value. Thus, the decrease in serum SHBG after short term administration of stanozolol reflects androgen responsiveness and, thus, may be used to differentiate patients with androgen insensitivity syndromes from those with other causes of male pseudohermaphroditism.
Here’s the thing: This was after oral administration, so I am not sure that I can extrapolate the data to injectable as well. SHBG is made in the liver so even an injectable winny would have to be processed there, albeit slower, due to the slower release of injectable winny and it’s direct release into the bloodstream. That could possibly make it a little less effective in this regard.
In a nutshell: Proviron and Winny could provide the mechanisms to increase the value of other AS. Proviron would work because by binding to SHBG, it leaves hormone in a free state to bind to the AR. Proviron is a terrible Anabolic, but its affinity for SHBG would essentially “displace”other steroids from binding to SHBG. Winstrol would work to reduce the overall amount of SHBG, thereby having the effect of freeing up hormone to bind to the AR. What a stack!
01-28-2004, 12:53 PM
Sifu, first off diet makes a cycle a cutter or not. Second thing, water retention on prop? Guessing you have ever done prop.
01-28-2004, 01:10 PM
Water retention can occur on prop.
As stated though, a cutting cycle is made via DIET and CARDIO.
Adding proviron is not worth it at 25mg. It can cause serious BP changes and it is hepatotoxic. Winstrol will be enough.
01-28-2004, 01:12 PM
I know it is diet and cardio. No doubt, for five years I have dieted for competitions without any AAS.
However if it aromitizes then it can make you hold water. I have never done prop, but that is irrelevant.
01-28-2004, 01:13 PM
Even if it does not aromatize is still can cause water retention. Many women experience bad bloating while using winstrol.
01-28-2004, 01:15 PM
I know that, but my point is, that if it does aromitize, it will cause it.
01-28-2004, 01:24 PM
As far as the water retention it's different with everyone but it in no way is a reason not to use something to cut. Seriously test prop is excellent for cutting as is any type of test but more so with prop because of less water retention. When it comes down to it DIET is the only difference between a cutter and bulker.
01-28-2004, 01:25 PM
Well if that was the cae, why don't more people cut with Dbol or Deca, I am not trying to be a dick. I just want to know if there is a scientific answer.
It will help me with my next cycle.
01-28-2004, 01:41 PM
I have cut with test enanthate w/o any problems.
01-28-2004, 01:43 PM
So a test base transdermal with winny along with a good diet and exercise is a good cutter. I researched it and alot of people said to go with winy,proviron but I want to get a lot of opinions.
01-28-2004, 02:13 PM
IMO best cutter stack: test, fina , winny or anavar, optional: proviron
01-28-2004, 02:15 PM
That looks good, but the anavar is to much money for my taste. Fina could be a possibility.
01-28-2004, 02:17 PM
Bro that would be nice cutter. The test at 500mg/week and winny at 50-100mg/day depending on experience and backgroud would def get the job done. Water retention in this day and age should not be a problem. With all the things we have available to use like arimdx,femara, etc.... bloat is ancient history. Personally I don't get bloated no matter what I take and yes I've used dbol in a cutter. I'm on week 4 of test enanth, EQ, and dbol right now and still vascular and cut as I was before I started, and my EQ hasn't even kicked in yet. It basically comes down to the individual but with shorter acting ester for test water retention is less of a problem (if it is a problem to start with).
01-28-2004, 03:14 PM
I have to agree, anyone can cut with test if they know what they're doing. I've cut with test before (TNE). I haven't ran a cutter with dbol or drol, but I imgaine it's like anything else, as said above: diet and cardio are the key to cutting, not necessarily the AS (although certain cycles may be better than others).
My upcoming cutter cycle will be 10-12 weeks of test cyp @ 500mg weekly with either M1T or winny for 4-6 weeks, still up in the air on that one.
01-28-2004, 03:20 PM
Sounds like my debate. Test dermal for 8weeks and prov and winny for the last six. Or winny and prov for eight weeks.
01-28-2004, 07:31 PM
I am currently doing a cutting cycle with test Enanthate (500)week for 10 weeks. Will do M1T for the last 5 weeks with finesteride and letrozole. Haven't really noticed any water retention. I have been going for about 3.5 weeks now and dropped from 206 to 193. No visual muscle loss.
Does anyone have any opinions on using letrozole for second half of cycle? PLEASE ONLY PEOPLE WITH ACTUAL EXPERIENCE NEED REPLY!
01-28-2004, 08:11 PM
I've used letro twice now while on cycle, and I like it, keeps me as dry as I could ask for IMO. I used 1mg ED, some people do even less. As for the last part of the cycle, I don't see a problem with that. What is your PCT? Bobo posted a study with results of letro lessening the effects of Nolva, when taken in conjunction I believe. For PCT letro/clomid would be OK, but not letro/nolva as I understand it.
01-28-2004, 08:41 PM
I will be using clomid only. Clomid alone works really well for me, it usually only takes a couple weeks and I am back to normal. However I still run it for 4 weeks.
01-30-2004, 08:27 AM
Here you go my sample cut cycle:
Trenbolone 1 ml eod-bicep site inj. ½ cc in ea. Twice/ wk/ 7 weeks
Winstrol 1 ml eod -/ last weeks 50 mgs/day
Propionate 400 mg’s a week for 5 weeks.
Anavar 5/day (if possible after 2 weeks into cycle for 4 weeks) 25-35 mgs/day
Clenbuterol 2/day 2 on/ 2 off 7 weeks (not in last week)/ hit the Ephedrine/ Caffine/ --------------asprin on the 2 off days Or both if death wish………
Asprin every am/ protein shakes stopped last weeek before competition/ shakes should have in am 1 table spoon olive oil and flax seed oil; and possibly the pm.
Halotestine: 25 mgs/day Last 3 weeks
Hgh 4 Ius a day/ 5 take last week off
Arimidex or Letrozole with the clomid the last 30 days
Insulin if needed
Cytomel two a day for last 5 weeks/ maybe three a day.
Last Week Mon. Aldactazide am and pm (1 gal water); tues Aldactazide am and pm (one gallon water); Wed aldactazide am; pm aldactazide (1 gal water); Thursday aldactone am aldactone pm ( ½ gallon); Friday aldactone am aldactone (1/3 gallon); Sat aldactone am ( sip only on water); Car deplete previous Thursday, Friday, Sat, Sun, Mon, Tues, Wed am, Load Wed PM, Thursday, Friday until 7 pm nothing after, until Sat. am then some simple carbs milk shake/ and a Yam, cheeseburger, fries, 2-3 hours before:
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