milk thistle and the absorbtion of prohormones

[3chris8]

i have heard that taking milk thistle while on a prohormone cycle can hinder the absorbtion of the prohormone therefore hindering gains, is this in fact true?

i am on a p plex/ m drol bridge and want to save my liver but do not want to hinder gains.:dunno:

 

[liftin4fun]

Don't know for sure but I always run milk thistle during all of my cycles and still have a liver. I might have gained 2 more pound but could have lost that in the hospital not working out at all. Its your choice play it safe is the right answer.

 

[Zero V]

Highly depends on the steroid toxicity. I doubt your gona miss out much considering your taking both superdrol and phera at the same time though lol. Protect ur body, gains second.

 

[LAGear]

I don't think anyone on here would recommend doing any kind of oral cycle without AI's Cycle Support or similar product and they all have milk thistle. And I don't recall ever seeing someone complain that their results were sub-optimal on account of the milk thistle.

Use it!

 

[mooch2321]

i use the thistle at night....its half life is 6 hours so it will be cleared by your morning dose of pplex/mdrol....just try to take it 9 hours after pplex and around 12 hours after mdrol if possible....

 

[lennoxchi]

UGH, not this rumor again. tell you what, find one solid report that MT does anything for your liver. read the studies, they all say "it suggests" and MT might do this that or the other thing......but it might not do squat. "This statment (they are refering to the claims that MT maintains liver health) has not been evaluated by th eFood and Drug Administration. this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease" that is what the side of my bottle says, what does your's say? something similar i bet. now there is only one reason that the makers or distributors of any MT product would say this.......and that reason is simple, $$$$$$ and $. now i'm not saying that MT does not help, but in the past i've asked, countless times, for someone anyone, to produce to me a study that says MT does, hands down, help in the aid of liver function, and i've never gotten one. now, like i said, it might help, but it might just be snake oil. i dunno

 

[3chris8]

UGH, not this rumor again. tell you what, find one solid report that MT does anything for your liver. read the studies, they all say "it suggests" and MT might do this that or the other thing......but it might not do squat. "This statment (they are refering to the claims that MT maintains liver health) has not been evaluated by th eFood and Drug Administration. this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease" that is what the side of my bottle says, what does your's say? something similar i bet. now there is only one reason that the makers or distributors of any MT product would say this.......and that reason is simple, $$$$$$ and $. now i'm not saying that MT does not help, but in the past i've asked, countless times, for someone anyone, to produce to me a study that says MT does, hands down, help in the aid of liver function, and i've never gotten one. now, like i said, it might help, but it might just be snake oil. i dunno

well does it interfere in anyway with the absorbtion?

 

[3chris8]

Highly depends on the steroid toxicity. I doubt your gona miss out much considering your taking both superdrol and phera at the same time though lol. Protect ur body, gains second.

explain what you mean by it depending on the toxicity?

 

[Zero V]

explain what you mean by it depending on the toxicity?

Say comparing h-drol to m-drol per say on how hard it is on your body. The harsher it is the more chance of an issue, and the more protection to me recommended. And if you stack multiple methyl's all the more reason to protect your body.

 

[3chris8]

Say comparing h-drol to m-drol per say on how hard it is on your body. The harsher it is the more chance of an issue, and the more protection to me recommended. And if you stack multiple methyl's all the more reason to protect your body.

gotcha... i thought you were talking about the absorbtion side of things when you said depending on the toxicity.

 

[nparisi]

UGH, not this rumor again. tell you what, find one solid report that MT does anything for your liver. read the studies, they all say "it suggests" and MT might do this that or the other thing......but it might not do squat. "This statment (they are refering to the claims that MT maintains liver health) has not been evaluated by th eFood and Drug Administration. this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease" that is what the side of my bottle says, what does your's say? something similar i bet. now there is only one reason that the makers or distributors of any MT product would say this.......and that reason is simple, $$$$$$ and $. now i'm not saying that MT does not help, but in the past i've asked, countless times, for someone anyone, to produce to me a study that says MT does, hands down, help in the aid of liver function, and i've never gotten one. now, like i said, it might help, but it might just be snake oil. i dunno

I'm not saying MT does or doesn't help but every claim on nearly every supplement has that 'has not been eveluated by the FDA' disclaimer on it.
That shouldn't be a reason to discount something.

 

[abuleh]

Found that:

Liver-protective action of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases
Orvosi Hetilap 130 (1989), 2723-2727
J.Fehér, G. Deàk, G.Müzes, I.Làng, V.Niederland, K.Nékám, K.Mihàly
Semmelweiss University, II. Belklinika, Egyetern, Hungary

Abstract: The effects of silymarin (Legalon® *) therapy on liver function tests, serum procollagen III peptide levels and liver histology were studied in 36 patients with chronic alcoholic liver disease in a six months double blind clinical trial. During silymarin treatment serum bilirubin, aspartate aminotransferase and alanine aminotransferase values have been normalized, while gamma-glutamyl transferase activity and procollagen III peptide level decreased. The changes were significant, and there was a significant difference between post-treatment values of the two groups, as well. In the placebo group only gamma-glutamyl transferase values decreased significantly but to a lesser extent than that in the silymarin group. The histological alterations showed an improvement in the silymarin group, while remained unchanged in the placebo group. These results indicate that silymarin exerts hepatoprotective activity and is able to improve liver functions in alcoholic patients.


And this:

Randomized controlled trial of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver
Journal of Hepatology 9 (1989), 105 - 113
P. Ferenci(1), B. Dragosics(1), H. Dittrich(2), H. Frank(3), L. Benda(4), H. Lochs(1), S. Mervn(1), W. Base(1) and B. Schneider(5)
(1)1st Department of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, University of Vienna, Austria
(2)Ambulatorium Süd der Wiener Gebietskrankenkasse, Vienna, Austria
(3)Department of Internal Medicine, Sophienspital, Vienna, Austria
(4)Department of Internal Medicine, Krankenhaus Floridsdorf, Vienna, Austria
(5)Institute of Biometry, Medical University Hannover, Germany


Abstract: Silymarin, the active principle of the milk thistle Silybum marianum, protects experimental animals against various hepatotoxic substances. To determine the effect of silymarin on the outcome of patients with cirrhosis, a double blind, prospective, randomized study was performed in 170 patients with cirrhosis. 87 patients (alcoholic 46, non-alcoholic 41; 61 male, 26 female; Child A 47, B 37, C 3; mean age 57) received 140 mg silymarin three times daily. 84 patients (alcoholic 45, non-alcoholic 38; 62 male, 21 female; Child A 42, B 32, C 9; mean age 58) received a placebo. Non-compliant patients and patients who failed to come to a control were considered as "drop outs" and were withdrawn from the study. All patients received the same treatment until the last patient entered had finished 2 years of treatment. The mean observation period was 41 months. There were 10 drop-outs in the placebo group and 14 in the treatment group. In the placebo group, 37 (+ 2 drop outs) patients had died, and in 31 of these, death was related to liver disease. In the treatment group, 24 (+ 4 drop outs) had died, and in 18 of these, death was related to liver disease. The 4-year survival rate was 58 +/- 9% (S.E.) in silymarin-treated patients and 39 +/- 9% in the placebo group (p=0.036). Analysis of subgroups indicated that treatment was effective in patients with alcoholic cirrhosis (p=0.01) and in patients initially rated "Child A" (p=0.03). No side effects of drug treatment was observed. The results of this study suggest that mortality of patients with cirrhosis was reduced by treatment with silymarin. However, as this effect was more pronounced in alcoholic cirrhosis, the interrelation of patterns of alcohol consumption and of drug treatment affecting survival must be addressed by future studies.


Also see attachment!

~abuleh

 

[LAGear]

There are many studies that show milk thistle is helpful for liver health.

There are two examples above but I'm not going to dig any others up because I'm convinced of this and have no motivation to change anyone else's mind. But I'm pretty sure if you've got a good working knowledge of using Google you'll find them. Searching for silymarin may help you find more results as that is the active ingredient in milk thistle. It's also the ingredient you want to refer to when comparing the potency of different milk thistle products.

 

[3chris8]

Found that:

Liver-protective action of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases
Orvosi Hetilap 130 (1989), 2723-2727
J.Fehér, G. Deàk, G.Müzes, I.Làng, V.Niederland, K.Nékám, K.Mihàly
Semmelweiss University, II. Belklinika, Egyetern, Hungary

Abstract: The effects of silymarin (Legalon® *) therapy on liver function tests, serum procollagen III peptide levels and liver histology were studied in 36 patients with chronic alcoholic liver disease in a six months double blind clinical trial. During silymarin treatment serum bilirubin, aspartate aminotransferase and alanine aminotransferase values have been normalized, while gamma-glutamyl transferase activity and procollagen III peptide level decreased. The changes were significant, and there was a significant difference between post-treatment values of the two groups, as well. In the placebo group only gamma-glutamyl transferase values decreased significantly but to a lesser extent than that in the silymarin group. The histological alterations showed an improvement in the silymarin group, while remained unchanged in the placebo group. These results indicate that silymarin exerts hepatoprotective activity and is able to improve liver functions in alcoholic patients.


And this:

Randomized controlled trial of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver
Journal of Hepatology 9 (1989), 105 - 113
P. Ferenci(1), B. Dragosics(1), H. Dittrich(2), H. Frank(3), L. Benda(4), H. Lochs(1), S. Mervn(1), W. Base(1) and B. Schneider(5)
(1)1st Department of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, University of Vienna, Austria
(2)Ambulatorium Süd der Wiener Gebietskrankenkasse, Vienna, Austria
(3)Department of Internal Medicine, Sophienspital, Vienna, Austria
(4)Department of Internal Medicine, Krankenhaus Floridsdorf, Vienna, Austria
(5)Institute of Biometry, Medical University Hannover, Germany


Abstract: Silymarin, the active principle of the milk thistle Silybum marianum, protects experimental animals against various hepatotoxic substances. To determine the effect of silymarin on the outcome of patients with cirrhosis, a double blind, prospective, randomized study was performed in 170 patients with cirrhosis. 87 patients (alcoholic 46, non-alcoholic 41; 61 male, 26 female; Child A 47, B 37, C 3; mean age 57) received 140 mg silymarin three times daily. 84 patients (alcoholic 45, non-alcoholic 38; 62 male, 21 female; Child A 42, B 32, C 9; mean age 58) received a placebo. Non-compliant patients and patients who failed to come to a control were considered as "drop outs" and were withdrawn from the study. All patients received the same treatment until the last patient entered had finished 2 years of treatment. The mean observation period was 41 months. There were 10 drop-outs in the placebo group and 14 in the treatment group. In the placebo group, 37 (+ 2 drop outs) patients had died, and in 31 of these, death was related to liver disease. In the treatment group, 24 (+ 4 drop outs) had died, and in 18 of these, death was related to liver disease. The 4-year survival rate was 58 +/- 9% (S.E.) in silymarin-treated patients and 39 +/- 9% in the placebo group (p=0.036). Analysis of subgroups indicated that treatment was effective in patients with alcoholic cirrhosis (p=0.01) and in patients initially rated "Child A" (p=0.03). No side effects of drug treatment was observed. The results of this study suggest that mortality of patients with cirrhosis was reduced by treatment with silymarin. However, as this effect was more pronounced in alcoholic cirrhosis, the interrelation of patterns of alcohol consumption and of drug treatment affecting survival must be addressed by future studies.


Also see attachment!

~abuleh

wow thanks man, i appreciate it...

 

[Kristofer68SS]

i use Cycle Support for overall good health reasons. Not just liver support.

I have also used Liv. 52,specifically for the liver, which is good stuff.

 

[jbryand101b]

i have heard that taking milk thistle while on a prohormone cycle can hinder the absorbtion of the prohormone therefore hindering gains, is this in fact true?

i am on a p plex/ m drol bridge and want to save my liver but do not want to hinder gains.:dunno:

okay, all the fluff about what milk thistle does is not the posters question, I'll do my best to answer the posters question, here goes.

The reason for this rumor is because milk thistle and other liver support products help protect the liver, and make it stronger, in turn, helping the liver to be able to break down the product faster.

The purpose for methylation of a steroid is to prevent the liver from breaking it down so quickly, and this is what (in a nutshell) causes the liver to have problems. So....

when you take a liver support product, you are (if the product works, thats a diff. topic) in fact helping the liver to be able to break down the methyl steroid, there by decreasing how long it stays in your blood, and in turn, how much is used.

the stronger your liver, the better it will break down the methyl steroid, (or anything)

how much more or less of the methylated steroid is used I dont think has been studied, and whether or not its enough to make a difference I dont think is known.

What is known is that the liver is hand down, the best organ in the body for healing itself, and with anything, if methylated steroids are not abused, and used wisely, hepatotoxicity of "most" steroids is not a worry, and the liver will heal itself back to normal, without the aid of anything to help it. but im sure it doesn't hurt to use supplements to help it get there.

so if you really want to get the most out out of your sd/pp, then yes, dont take liver support supplements on cycle, but do take them post cycle. if you dont abuse it, your liver will be fine. this is a well studied fact.

basically it comes down to this,

"Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects,
or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing
is free"

 

[3chris8]

okay, all the fluff about what milk thistle does is not the posters question, I'll do my best to answer the posters question, here goes.

The reason for this rumor is because milk thistle and other liver support products help protect the liver, and make it stronger, in turn, helping the liver to be able to break down the product faster.

The purpose for methylation of a steroid is to prevent the liver from breaking it down so quickly, and this is what (in a nutshell) causes the liver to have problems. So....

when you take a liver support product, you are (if the product works, thats a diff. topic) in fact helping the liver to be able to break down the methyl steroid, there by decreasing how long it stays in your blood, and in turn, how much is used.

the stronger your liver, the better it will break down the methyl steroid, (or anything)

how much more or less of the methylated steroid is used I dont think has been studied, and whether or not its enough to make a difference I dont think is known.

What is known is that the liver is hand down, the best organ in the body for healing itself, and with anything, if methylated steroids are not abused, and used wisely, hepatotoxicity of "most" steroids is not a worry, and the liver will heal itself back to normal, without the aid of anything to help it. but im sure it doesn't hurt to use supplements to help it get there.

so if you really want to get the most out out of your sd/pp, then yes, dont take liver support supplements on cycle, but do take them post cycle. if you dont abuse it, your liver will be fine. this is a well studied fact.

basically it comes down to this,

"Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects,
or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing
is free"

best answer yet, clears the gray area i had. couldnt of put it into better words, thanks for the post jbryand

 

[lennoxchi]

as far as i know, when talking about a methyl product, "17a" in other words, it will only survive the 1st pass of the liver after that it is broken down. and yes jb you are correct that is why the liver becomes stressed in the 1st place. keep in mind folks, the liver is a wonderfull organ, it's one of the only that will heal in time. i suffered from what my doctor at the time refered to as "alcoholic hepatitis" it's sometimes treatable depending on how much damage is done, my bloodwork these days (when i'm not "on") is more than fine, and that is without treatment, the liver healed in time.......

 

[theface]

explain what you mean by it depending on the toxicity?

For example, if you compare m-drol to h-drol; m-drol is a much more toxic compound and people usually run shorter cycles of it because of this issue.

 

[dpfisher]

There are plenty of good, probably better alternatives to milk thistle out there, they are just more expensive. Can't put a price on health though.

Things like SAM-e/Liv-52 are more pricy but probably a lot more effective. I know this doesn't answer your question but it does allow you to completely avoid the issue.

 

[Wilderbeast]

Silymarin and NAC are both items that hospitals in the USA use in cases of acute liver toxicity/failure... If it's good enough for a doctor trying to save a patient in hepatic shock or failure, it's good enough for me on a steroid cycle. TUDCA, UDCA, PPC, Liv.52 ... all helpful and medicinally used in treatment and therapy by medical professionals around the world for liver, gallbladder, kidney related toxicity issues.

BEAST

 

[theface]

Absolutely agree.

 

[AnabolicFrenz]

This thread is a little old but since others responded...

I know a severe but functional alcoholic that takes milkthistle+nac daily and his liver enzymes are good to go as long as he isnt drunk when he gets tested.

Also in Dr. D's thread how to pulse orals, he says that taking milkthistle may hinder some gains. If you were on a pulse you could take milkthistle on your off days only to maximize the effect but still help heal your liver. Doing a regular cycle you should definitely continue to take cycle assist/milkthistle daily it is stupid not to no matter if it does or doesnt affect your gains. Many PHs have a halflife of between 6-8hrs so what you could do is just take milk thistle at opportune times. Taking MT 6-8 hours after your dose would be best. You could always take it at night before bed unless you dose pre-wo and you workout late in the day.

 

[theface]

This thread is a little old but since others responded...

I know a severe but functional alcoholic that takes milkthistle+nac daily and his liver enzymes are good to go as long as he isnt drunk when he gets tested.

Also in Dr. D's thread how to pulse orals, he says that taking milkthistle may hinder some gains. If you were on a pulse you could take milkthistle on your off days only to maximize the effect but still help heal your liver. Doing a regular cycle you should definitely continue to take cycle assist/milkthistle daily it is stupid not to no matter if it does or doesnt affect your gains. Many PHs have a halflife of between 6-8hrs so what you could do is just take milk thistle at opportune times. Taking MT 6-8 hours after your dose would be best. You could always take it at night before bed unless you dose pre-wo and you workout late in the day.

You're absolutely right. I definitely trust Dr. D's advice and have several cycles under my belt under his pulsing guidelines.

 

[jhodddy]

Anyone have any experience with greens+ powder specifically the berry blend... ?

i always take that daily for general health. it has some milk thistle and other good stuff in it. i wonder if the rest of the stuff in it have any effect on absorption or could be counter-productive to say, an hdrol cycle. have given it some thought but not done it.

ps been doing lots of reading lurking learning, thanks for the site and all the knowledgeble peeps. my first post.

 

[Mr.Testo]

UGH, not this rumor again. tell you what, find one solid report that MT does anything for your liver. read the studies, they all say "it suggests" and MT might do this that or the other thing......but it might not do squat. "This statment (they are refering to the claims that MT maintains liver health) has not been evaluated by th eFood and Drug Administration. this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease" that is what the side of my bottle says, what does your's say? something similar i bet. now there is only one reason that the makers or distributors of any MT product would say this.......and that reason is simple, $$$$$$ and $. now i'm not saying that MT does not help, but in the past i've asked, countless times, for someone anyone, to produce to me a study that says MT does, hands down, help in the aid of liver function, and i've never gotten one. now, like i said, it might help, but it might just be snake oil. i dunno

There is 1 case report describing the use of silymarin in a patient with promyelocytic leukemia who required breaks in chemotherapy due to abnormal liver enzyme levels. During 4 months of treatment with silymarin, the patient had normal liver enzyme levels and was able to undergo chemotherapy without breaks. A second case report describes a patient with hepatocellular carcinoma whose symptoms improved when he took 450 milligrams of silymarin per day, without anticancer therapy.

A randomized clinical trial in children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia found that silymarin decreased the harmful effects of chemotherapy on the liver without working against the cancer treatment. The children taking silymarin needed fewer chemotherapy dose reductions because of side effects than the children who did not take milk thistle.

A number of clinical trials have studied milk thistle or silymarin in the treatment of patients with hepatitis, cirrhosis, or disorders of the bile ducts. These trials have used a wide range of doses with mixed results. In a trial of biologic therapy for patients with chronic hepatitis, patients taking silymarin had fewer symptoms and a better quality of life compared to patients not taking silymarin. The beneficial effects of silymarin shown in some studies suggest it might play a role in preventing hepatitis and/or liver cancer

i konw this is an old post but i think its important to raise awareness about damage control in regards to certain compounds and after doing plenty of reseach...
THIS IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME