8 month Plan

[Distilled Water]

Ok I've got some AAS experience under my belt and am planning to start this in the fall and continue thru May 2010. This is like the balls to the wall I know. Im looking to gain and keep close to 30lbs of lean body mass here. I dont really care if I drop much bf, which Im sure I will with the second installment.

Diet is always in check! I thought I finally had broken over that 200 and some change weight and 10%bf but then I came down with a severe case of bicep tendonitis (CJC-1295/GHRP-6 combo helped ) then tore tendons in my foot which put me out of the gym for close to 12 weeks. Add in having low cash flow and bam back down to where I was before (a little heavier)

Start: August 31st
End: January 2nd

Week 1-6: Dbol
25mg ED
Week 1-6: Adrol
50mg ED
Week 1-6: hGH
30iu's/week (10iu's Mon/Wed/Fri Post-Workout)
Week 1-6: igf-1lr3
100mcg Post-Workout (Mon/Wed/Fri)
Week 1-10: Test-E
500mg/week (mon/thur)
Week 13-16CT
-Nolva 40/40/20/20
-Clomid 150/100/50/25
-DTH
-igf-1lr3 50mcg (5on/2off)
Week 7-16: hGH
4iu's 5on/2off (morning)

*Im taking 2 weeks off here because I will be traveling alot. I should be able to stay on the hGH (it's insulin :lol

Start :January 18th
End: May 1st

Week 1-8: Winny
50-100mg
Week 1-8: Tren Ace
75mg EOD
Week 1-15: Test-E
-500mg/week
Week 9-18: HCG
250iu E3D
Week 19-22: PCT
-Nolva 40/40/20/20
-Clomid 150/100/50/25
-DTH
-igf-1lr3 50mcg (5on/2off)
Week 1-22:hGH
-4iu's

 

[Zero V]

I have no real input, I am simply here to say DAAAAyyyyYYYyyyUUUuuMMmmMMMMM GEEET SOME!

:hitit:

 

[crazyfool405]

i love this!!!

i would just stay on an not come off, and run hCG every other weekk starting week 5 at 250 iu E3D for 3 shots.

 

[samadhismiles]

no no no no

your recovery will be **** hard to get natty levels back after that long a run

unless you plan on going onto HRT afterwards.

 

[Smiley]

Low cash flow...?? Doesnt look low to me with those peptides. I think HCG starting a few weeks prior to the first pct is the only way to get some actual recovery out of that short of an off time.

 

[samadhismiles]

the time on = time off rule sounds really good to me right now. And you can't stay 6 months on man and expect a smooth recovery!!!!

why not just run 12-14 week cycles with 12-14 weeks off in between?

 

[Zero V]

the time on = time off rule sounds really good to me right now. And you can't stay 6 months on man and expect a smooth recovery!!!!

why not just run 12-14 week cycles with 12-14 weeks off in between?

Your not familiar with how some professional body builders run their cycles are you....

 

[samadhismiles]

like I said in my first post in this thread, unless you're planning on going onto HRT after you stop your cycle then the OP should rethink this. Pardon me, I have no clue what this person's life or job is like (whether they are professional or not). Are you a professional bodybuilder that is willing to sacrifice your lifetime production of testosterone (inducing hypogonadism)? If you're not then you should rethink this.

ZeroV, I just read a post of yours elsewhere on this board saying you had never run a steroid cycle. Yet you're here with the first post in this thread encouraging this person to run a stupidly long steroid cycle. Get a clue bro and stop encouraging people to abuse steroids.

 

[Distilled Water]

Oh DW, you silly bastard...

HGH isn't going to do anything at all for you, especially run at that short of time. Save it and run it when you can be on it for 6+ months or else you're just throwing money out the window, and i'm sure you paid close to $2.5/iu for it as well

Nah not that much, If you look I would actually be on gh for about 8 months. Good to see you around postin again foo'.

I see the issues you guys are talking about. I have never been on that long of a cycle and really do have no idea how hard it is going to be to recover. Hence making this thread.

I have had both kinds of friend who have been on for over 2 years and ones that run 8-10 week cycles are off for 6 weeks and then jump on again so its just a mix of opinions form them

Knock on wood so far so good with recovery, but nothing this long.

O an no, not a professional bodybuilder, working on being a pro at somthing else tho

 

[Distilled Water]

How does this sound?????

Week 1-15: 500mg/week Test-E (Mon/Thur)
Week 1-6: 25mg Dbol/50mg Adrol ED
Week 1-6: hGH 30iu's/week (10iu mon/wed/fri)
Week 10-17: Tren A 75mg EOD
Week 11-17: Winstrol 50-100mg ED
Week 4-18: HCG 250iu E3D
Week 18-24: PCT
-Nolva 40/40/20/20/20/10
-Clomid 150/100/50/25/0/0
-DTHC
-IGF-1lr3 20mcg ED
-hGH 4iu's/day 5on/2off
*I would already have been running the GH @ 4iu's/day for about 3-4months before the 3x's/split.

 

[Zero V]

like I said in my first post in this thread, unless you're planning on going onto HRT after you stop your cycle then the OP should rethink this. Pardon me, I have no clue what this person's life or job is like (whether they are professional or not). Are you a professional bodybuilder that is willing to sacrifice your lifetime production of testosterone (inducing hypogonadism)? If you're not then you should rethink this.

ZeroV, I just read a post of yours elsewhere on this board saying you had never run a steroid cycle. Yet you're here with the first post in this thread encouraging this person to run a stupidly long steroid cycle. Get a clue bro and stop encouraging people to abuse steroids.

I have not ran one yet because my body is not ready. Doesnt mean my mind isnt. Considering I have spent almost 2 years studying the subject, learning it in an out. I didnt advise anything anyways....not my place. And all I said is obviously you have not seen some of the prof. cycles out there, which means from what I have seen some BBers use...get off your high donkey and chill

Distilled is a smart dude...lol I think he knows whats what. Hey distilled is there a reason for this one? Say a specific show you plan to do or something?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I personally see a few issues with your second plan - namely, the odd manner in which you want to end the cycle! Given the length of suppression here, I would rather choose to end the cycle with a less suppressive compound, rather than the [...arguably...] most suppressive compound of your cycle: Tren A. Ideally, I would end the cycle with the least suppressive compound [Testosterone] in a semi-tapered fashion, slowly ramping the dosage downward while implementing hCG. Given the length of this cycle, that may assist in recovering more efficiently.

Secondly, and this may be solely my opinion, but cycles should be uni-purpose - that is, recomposition, cut, or bulk, not a mixture of the three! We have to remember that the mass we accrue matures as the cycle progresses, and, therefore, is more susceptible to dissipation when calories dip.

If this were me [which it is not, I know] I would break this into two cycles, over a longer period: an 8 week lean bulk with T. Prop, D-Bol, and Tren-A, then an equally long cut with the same compounds + a competent AI to diminish bloat from the D-Bol [if I recall correctly, it occupies the GR to the same degree as Tren, and therefore poses to be equally "anti-catabolic"]. Obviously, a robust P.C.T., ran between them!

 

[Distilled Water]

I personally see a few issues with your second plan - namely, the odd manner in which you want to end the cycle! Given the length of suppression here, I would rather choose to end the cycle with a less suppressive compound, rather than the [...arguably...] most suppressive compound of your cycle: Tren A. Ideally, I would end the cycle with the least suppressive compound [Testosterone] in a semi-tapered fashion, slowly ramping the dosage downward while implementing hCG. Given the length of this cycle, that may assist in recovering more efficiently.

I know Tren A is extremley surpressive, your correct. I was looking at it from a standpoint of strength n mass gain at this end. There wouldn't be a great amount of mass gain but rather vastly improved fast twitch muscle performance and great increase in strength. I was not looking at the surpresison (which is probably not the correct thing to do)

Secondly, and this may be solely my opinion, but cycles should be uni-purpose - that is, recomposition, cut, or bulk, not a mixture of the three! We have to remember that the mass we accrue matures as the cycle progresses, and, therefore, is more susceptible to dissipation when calories dip.

I agree 100%, I know it looks like I would be trying to "cut" towards the end of the cycle given the compounds.

If this were me [which it is not, I know] I would break this into two cycles, over a longer period: an 8 week lean bulk with T. Prop, D-Bol, and Tren-A, then an equally long cut with the same compounds + a competent AI to diminish bloat from the D-Bol [if I recall correctly, it occupies the GR to the same degree as Tren, and therefore poses to be equally "anti-catabolic"]. Obviously, a robust P.C.T., ran between them!

I have used prop before and the pinning becomes a pain, I'm not talking about the actually pinning but rather having to do it EOD. However I do like your idea and it was one that I had, but again the pinning begins to become and issue.

Also nice use of the word "robust" in the AM fourm, you canadians have a better vocab than I thought

 

[suncloud]

don't know anything about injectibles, so i'll keep this short and sweet.

whatever your choice, best of luck DW. nice to see you back and posting more often.

 

[Smiley]

You don't taper off test, if you are shutdown, you are shutdown. Tren isn't going to shut him down more than the previous weeks of test would. He can't go into negative shutdown...haha...

Tapering off test will just elongate the process of coming off...You stop test and don't start PCT for 2 weeks...why? Because it tapers itself off.

Its true the way you say it as "shutdown is shutdown," but the recovery part will be different. You will have zero natty production of test while on just enanthate, or a test/tren combo. It will be harder to rebound from the tren cycle though.

 

[crazyfool405]

Nah not that much, If you look I would actually be on gh for about 8 months. Good to see you around postin again foo'.

I see the issues you guys are talking about. I have never been on that long of a cycle and really do have no idea how hard it is going to be to recover. Hence making this thread.

I have had both kinds of friend who have been on for over 2 years and ones that run 8-10 week cycles are off for 6 weeks and then jump on again so its just a mix of opinions form them

Knock on wood so far so good with recovery, but nothing this long.

O an no, not a professional bodybuilder, working on being a pro at somthing else tho

ive been on about 5 months already and have abbout 8 weeks left. i start hCG very soon but not yet, i have a plan.

and there are plenty of people who have recovered after a long cycle like this as well as people who havent. take the neccesary precautions, know what your getting into. To me his plan is solid with a few things here and there i would change

 

[crazyfool405]

You don't taper off test, if you are shutdown, you are shutdown. Tren isn't going to shut him down more than the previous weeks of test would. He can't go into negative shutdown...haha...

Tapering off test will just elongate the process of coming off...You stop test and don't start PCT for 2 weeks...why? Because it tapers itself off.

just quick question....

have you read anything from seth roberts about tapering? it actually shows positive recovery as tapering down natural production rise (a little) because there isnt much more hormone as there was before.

it doesnt "taper off" itself, yes there is a half life but that is different then a taper.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

You don't taper off test, if you are shutdown, you are shutdown. Tren isn't going to shut him down more than the previous weeks of test would. He can't go into negative shutdown...haha...

No, you cannot, but shutdown is not as simple as you are making it out to be. Progesterone/Progestins may increase SHBG mRNA expression, down-regulate AR mRNA expression and reduce LH secretion in response to GnRH at certain dosages. What does this mean? That when coming "off" of a Progestin as your last hormone the mechanisms in place that allow you to recover are significantly limited. The lack of LH secretion in response to GnRH results in less Total T., being produced; the increase in SHBG mRNA results in more Test being bound to blood proteins, and; the down-regulation of the AR results in less AR-binding.

Hormones are not tinker toys, and A doesn't = A. There are different ways to be shutdown, and a lot of processes at work here. So, yes, the Tren will shut him down more than the previous weeks of Test, particularly if it is run at the very end. This is why compound choice is important: different hormones have different effects on sex-hormone receptors, binding proteins and differing effects at different stages of the hormone biosynthesis process [hypothalamus, pituitary, gonads, localized enzymatic conversion]. Ending any cycle with Trenbolone is not a wise choice.

Tapering off test will just elongate the process of coming off...You stop test and don't start PCT for 2 weeks...why? Because it tapers itself off.

Nope again, for the same reasons. Effects on the AR, SHBG/albumin, regulation of the ER and so on play key roles in how quickly and effectively one recovers. While natural Testosterone production will be nil during the taper, these other mechanisms respond in a dose-dependent manner to changes in serum levels of androgens. So, essentially, tapering the amount of serum androgens "sets up" these mechanisms for a quicker recovery upon the production of natural T.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I know Tren A is extremley surpressive, your correct. I was looking at it from a standpoint of strength n mass gain at this end. There wouldn't be a great amount of mass gain but rather vastly improved fast twitch muscle performance and great increase in strength. I was not looking at the surpresison (which is probably not the correct thing to do)

I agree 100%, I know it looks like I would be trying to "cut" towards the end of the cycle given the compounds.

I have used prop before and the pinning becomes a pain, I'm not talking about the actually pinning but rather having to do it EOD. However I do like your idea and it was one that I had, but again the pinning begins to become and issue.

Also nice use of the word "robust" in the AM fourm, you canadians have a better vocab than I thought

Newer research in the Endo., field shows that SubQ delivery with ester-based hormones can be as effective as IM. This would significantly lessen the hassle of EOD.

 

[crazyfool405]

Actually I believe dht derivitives are more harsh on lh levels compared to others however not 100 % sure

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Actually I believe dht derivitives are more harsh on lh levels compared to others however not 100 % sure

They may as well, but I know that PGs can be particularly nasty in that regard. That is why one would ideally choose to end the cycle with something else.

 

[samadhismiles]

How does this sound?????

Week 1-15: 500mg/week Test-E (Mon/Thur)
Week 1-6: 25mg Dbol/50mg Adrol ED
Week 1-6: hGH 30iu's/week (10iu mon/wed/fri)
Week 10-17: Tren A 75mg EOD
Week 11-17: Winstrol 50-100mg ED
Week 4-18: HCG 250iu E3D
Week 18-24: PCT
-Nolva 40/40/20/20/20/10
-Clomid 150/100/50/25/0/0
-DTHC
-IGF-1lr3 20mcg ED
-hGH 4iu's/day 5on/2off
*I would already have been running the GH @ 4iu's/day for about 3-4months before the 3x's/split.

stick your tren up front and I say its do-able.

Don't run IGF for longer than 4 weeks (go 4 on 4 off). Pulse the GH in the 4 week off cycles between the on IGF cycles. I'd run the GH ED instead of mon-wed-fri.

I'd also get some GHRP-6 (GH secretatogue) for PCT to help with natty IGF levels.

 

[crazyfool405]

Ok I don't want to get into an e fight because its not my style nor do I want to represent ai in a negative manner however just to note a few things. I thought the same as you as far as tapering itself however natural production will be better if don't over time as oppsed to just those 2 weeks. Also shbg is lowered while on aas not raised

So I'm done with this thread but I want to ask you nicely to pm seth roberts or get his book for a better understanding of hormones or just how things work in a more clear understanding or different way that you think

 

[EasyEJL]

maybe just running test-e at 250 for week 16, 125 for 17, 62.5 wk 18 + 19, start pct week 20... I agree that the tren at the end particularly with just the dropping off test levels from the ester clearing doesn't sound like fun or great recovery

 

[Mulletsoldier]

1.) SHGB is already going to be high due to the cycle anyways. What is a little higher? I bet it's unmeasurable.

Incorrect. Certain studies show that normal men treated with exogenous T., show significant decreases in SHBG and significant increases [proportionately] in non-SHBG-bound-T.

2.) This downregulation is up in the air still, valid arguments for both sides.

I would not say it is up in the air. The debate is only on dosage, and not necessarily that it is occurring. In certain dosages, Progestins certainly seem to have a proandrogenic effect - however, the dosages used by most with Tren A., for example, seem to exceed that. The debate in terms of Progestins' antiandrogenic effect, in my opinion, is dosage, and not whether or not it is occurring.

3.) LH is already being suppressed with just test. This is why HCG is good to use in PCT, although it can suppress LH if use incorrectly. Using during cycle may keep the "mechanism in place" as you say.

Yes, but you are missing the point here: with the Tren where it is, it would be suppressing these mechanisms to a [most likely] far greater degree than Test., alone at the same point in the cycle. Why you would choose to place the most patently suppressive compound at the end of a cycle is odd, to say the least.

As Seth Roberts has mentioned on this site, suppression is not some linear on/off switch that is flipped the same by every compound. Being suppressed involves affecting a wide-range of endocrine processes, and each one is affected to differing degrees by different hormones.

You're basically saying tren will do what testosterone does (bio/cellular) but do so in an "enhanced, more expressed" manner. What is the relation then of testvtren ratios. Is 100mg of tren ED more powerful than 2+gs of test a week in terms of shutdown? or 500mg of test a week for 15 weeks vs 700mg of tren a week (100mg/day) for 4 weeks?

Besides all this, can we agree that his best attack might be to stop tren a week before he stops test. Giving himself a week for tren to clear, then 2 for the test.

No, I am saying they do different things, which is the thrust of the "compound choice" argument afoot here; you are saying they do the same things, Gixxer.

My point was that Testosterone and Trenbolone are vastly different compounds, and trying to relate them in an equated dose-dependent fashion completely ignores the unique effects they have on the all the processes I mentioned above. And so, you do not consider T v., Tren in regard to dose-dependency, but you consider them both individually in terms of the effects they will exert on the HPGA/AR/binding globulins and so forth. It would seem you are not taking into account the interaction between the PR and the AR: a progestin is going to have vastly more antiandrogenic effects at that high of a dosage, while Testosterone, being the body's natural chief androgen, will not.

You are making this out to be a long and drawn out process. How long do you think it takes for the body to implement these "mechanisms"...What are you suggesting as a taper? It seems like a highly unnecessary step. Test does taper off on its own.

I may be oversimplifying it, but you are over complicating it.

Again, Testosterone does not "taper off"; an ester tapers off. The point is, again, that going immediately from 'X' mg/week to nothing starts the body off at zero-point; tapering sets up these mechanisms [not sure why you put this in quotations] to expedite recovery.

If I were coming "off", I would certainly like to lessen the shock, rather than exacerbate it with an incredibly suppressive compound. An analogy between your method and mine would be jumping into an almost-freezing pool head-first, or walking in slowly with a wet-suit on. The body is going to be "shocked" far less in the latter example.

Why would you want to shoot SubQ? Higher risk of cellulitus

Where did I say I would? He mentioned the pain of EOD injections and SubQ has been shown to have a higher non-SHBG-bound-T: Total T., ratio, most likely due to site selection in the SubQ groups.

 

[Ziricote]

Only thing about the second cycle you posted is the tren, maybe have it more central in your cycle rather than at the end that way you can get into your stride earlier in the cycle and limit any negative influence it would have going into pct. Besides, running it to the end while dropping test could mean you're effectively doing a tren only cycle going into pct and who in their right mind does tren only?

If you really wanted to run a cycle into 2010 then you could bridge it. You'd still be shut down but it would give your body a break from some sides, not that I think it's a particularly good idea though.