legal Vs Non steroids, an AM discussion...

[Mike1605]

quick background...

So about a year and a half ago I found AM and starting reading habitually. I read a lot on the normal illegal AAS stuff but I focused a lot more on the legal stuff. I think it was a combination beteen the fact that there was so many company owners on the boards talking there product up and so many people that were trying it that it seemed the legal stuff was more "popular". So I read and read and read and finally decided at the age 23, weight of 220~ to try my second legal cycle now that im somewhat "educated".

As I read through AM there was still a lot of questions I had that went unanswered. I hit up google and started to sway away from AM. This is what I found...

From what I can gather after reading the **** out of AM for almost 2 years and the last 2 or 3 weeks reading the **** out of other online Gear forums is NONE of them emphasis the prohormones like AM does. In fact, most the guys on all these other "popular" site wont even consider and all oral cycle a cycle. Im reading things like " that stuff is just a waste of money..."

So I was curious on AMs thoughts. Is it just that the legal prohormones are so well marketed on this board that its almost "the way to go" or is there really a place for these legal alternatives (before the gov pulls them...?


Because now that I have everything for my first (err) well, second prohormone cycle, I definatly spent enough cash where I could have done a basic test e cycle at 500mg/week for 12 weeks and been at around the same price as the prohormones I purchased.


I guess the question up for debate is, is there any way the legal stuff can compete with the Illegal AAS when it comes to muscle building, cost comparrison, ect.

Discuss.

Edit, If I was smart enough to spell I wouldnt be a construction worker. Dont mind the grammer...

 

[sethroberts]

quick background...

So about a year and a half ago I found AM and starting reading habitually. I read a lot on the normal illegal AAS stuff but I focused a lot more on the legal stuff. I think it was a combination beteen the fact that there was so many company owners on the boards talking there product up and so many people that were trying it that it seemed the legal stuff was more "popular". So I read and read and read and finally decided at the age 23, weight of 220~ to try my second legal cycle now that im somewhat "educated".

As I read through AM there was still a lot of questions I had that went unanswered. I hit up google and started to sway away from AM. This is what I found...

From what I can gather after reading the **** out of AM for almost 2 years and the last 2 or 3 weeks reading the **** out of other online Gear forums is NONE of them emphasis the prohormones like AM does. In fact, most the guys on all these other "popular" site wont even consider and all oral cycle a cycle. Im reading things like " that stuff is just a waste of money..."

So I was curious on AMs thoughts. Is it just that the legal prohormones are so well marketed on this board that its almost "the way to go" or is there really a place for these legal alternatives (before the gov pulls them...?


Because now that I have everything for my first (err) well, second prohormone cycle, I definatly spent enough cash where I could have done a basic test e cycle at 500mg/week for 12 weeks and been at around the same price as the prohormones I purchased.


I guess the question up for debate is, is there any way the legal stuff can compete with the Illegal AAS when it comes to muscle building, cost comparrison, ect.

Discuss.

Edit, If I was smart enough to spell I wouldnt be a construction worker. Dont mind the grammer...

I think the real question is, if the illegal steroids were suddenly made legal tomorrow, which would you rather use. Superdrol or anadrol, test or hdrol etc.

For many, the illegal AAS are off limits because the potential legal ramifications are not worth the risk. It is easy from someone to say "just do real gear" without considering the legal risks, but if you own a home, have a good job, and/or have kids, getting busted for a class 3 scheduled drug might not be something that you want to experience. Therefore you turn to the legal option. I don't think that the legal options are necessarily weaker in terms of building muscle, but I do think the options are limited and that in some cases, the risk of side effects are greater that the illegal options.

 

[suncloud]

what's safer? AAS
what's more effective for building muscle? AAS or prohormones depending on what you get.
what has the least side effects? AAS

what is 100% legal? prohormones

IMO.

 

[mooch2321]

i am a big advocate of "real" gear....but i will tell you right now that the otc stuff definately has its place....and any guy over at pm or the other steroid boards that say it doesnt has never tried it....why would i pay out the @ss for winny when i can get epi for 25 bux a bottle....when you run it you can NOT tell the difference....im not a fan of these oral only cycles....but to kickstart an injectable cycle....i would rather use an otc oral then pay the ridiculous prices for dbol or something

 

[Mike1605]

So you think something like tesy and an otc chem is the way to go to be most cost effective... I can see that.


The one thing I don't understand, or should I say is making me go back and forth is the fact that most people that run illegal stacks gain more (say 40 lbs) but only retain like 20 of it.

then guys that run a nice otc stack gain 20 lbs and keep 15 of it. if ultimatly the difference is 5 or so lbs of muscle and one is perfectly legal and one will get me locked up, ill take 5 less lbs per cycle...

 

[remma777]

in a perfect world i would be able to get test without it being a felony and run my cycles with that as a base. however the laws in the united states make it impossible for me to justify an attempt to cycle the illegal stuff because I would lose my job my family and my freedom. just not worth it. so while it is not ideal i use the legal stuff and use a serm for pct with other ****. the day it is all legal i will be first in line to get some test and whatever else. it sucks that it is like this but it is what it is.

 

[quigs]

what's safer? AAS
what's more effective for building muscle? AAS or prohormones depending on what you get.
what has the least side effects? AAS

what is 100% legal? prohormones

IMO.

Well, they are all AAS...whether legal or not. Also, the illicit anabolics are not necessarily safer, have less side effects, or more effective. It all depends on the compound that you chose, and your goals.

For instance, the non-17-alpha-methyl parenteral compounds (like testosterone ...attached to an ester or transdermal) will generally be much better as far as hepatoxicity goes. They do still have the potential to cause a whole list of side effects. Additionally, IM administration can lead to other issues such as oil embolism, infection, etc. These are not a concern with oral compounds, obviously.

As far as effectiveness, I'd say that many of the "legal" options are much more effective than their illicit counterparts. Superdrol for instance, I'd put against almost any other oral, whether legal or not, in terms of its ability to put on LBM.

 

[n8te]

personally i've taken havoc and was pleased with results that was my first PH and I might take it again. But I think gear is the way to go. The chances of getting caught are pretty low if you're not a huge user. My buddies only use real gear now and they have had amazing results. Their results have started to change my mind on whether or not I'm gonna get gear or not pretty soon. In the end its up to you but watching my buddy who's 5'10, 180lbs incline 315 the other day helped make some decisions easier for me.

Also, I don't like the idea of being harsh on my liver w/ methylated products so thats another factor in my decision.

 

[suncloud]

Well, they are all AAS...whether legal or not. Also, the illicit anabolics are not necessarily safer, have less side effects, or more effective. It all depends on the compound that you chose, and your goals.

For instance, the non-17-alpha-methyl parenteral compounds (like testosterone ...attached to an ester or transdermal) will generally be much better as far as hepatoxicity goes. They do still have the potential to cause a whole list of side effects. Additionally, IM administration can lead to other issues such as oil embolism, infection, etc. These are not a concern with oral compounds, obviously.

As far as effectiveness, I'd say that many of the "legal" options are much more effective than their illicit counterparts. Superdrol for instance, I'd put against almost any other oral, whether legal or not, in terms of its ability to put on LBM.

sorry. for simplicities sake, i grouped all prohormones as that, not designer steroids. i've seen two mdrol/tren runs that net 30 pounds in 6 weeks, so i think with the right mix of legal designers you can make a cycle that keeps up with injectibles. i think one of them did mdrol for 3, and tren for 6 (as a stack), the other did a mdrol/tren bridge.

 

[Zero V]

lets take into account. For a normal guy, who weightlifts for himself, not a job, not for competitions. Doing a run of Epi is a nice way to give him an edge and a boost. He may not be interested in a 12 week injectable cycle.

I am also not a fan of needles lol.

 

[suncloud]

I am also not a fan of needles lol.

needles scare me. thank god i'm not diabetic.

 

[hardknock]

So you think something like tesy and an otc chem is the way to go to be most cost effective... I can see that.


The one thing I don't understand, or should I say is making me go back and forth is the fact that most people that run illegal stacks gain more (say 40 lbs) but only retain like 20 of it.

then guys that run a nice otc stack gain 20 lbs and keep 15 of it. if ultimatly the difference is 5 or so lbs of muscle and one is perfectly legal and one will get me locked up, ill take 5 less lbs per cycle...

Not condoning either, though I've had my trials, but whom among us has gained 20lbs on a pro or designer and kept 15lbs of lbm?
If that were the case then all you would have to do is run 3 cycles or and be done with it for life...
I'll say that, maybe, 3 percent of people have done that, which have used pros. Now if we're talking designers then the percentage goes up quite a bit.

 

[suncloud]

Not condoning either, though I've had my trials, but whom among us has gained 20lbs on a pro or designer and kept 15lbs of lbm?

i went from 185 to 202 for a 6 week run of tren/hdrol and kept 16 of the 17 pounds so far (starting my 4th week of PCT). PM me in a couple weeks and i'll let you know if i kept 15 of them

 

[Mike1605]

Not condoning either, though I've had my trials, but whom among us has gained 20lbs on a pro or designer and kept 15lbs of lbm?
If that were the case then all you would have to do is run 3 cycles or and be done with it for life...
I'll say that, maybe, 3 percent of people have done that, which have used pros. Now if we're talking designers then the percentage goes up quite a bit.

I have read numerous posts where people are claiming to retain 15 lbs off a legal stack...

 

[hardknock]

Well, they are all AAS...whether legal or not. Also, the illicit anabolics are not necessarily safer, have less side effects, or more effective. It all depends on the compound that you chose, and your goals.

For instance, the non-17-alpha-methyl parenteral compounds (like testosterone ...attached to an ester or transdermal) will generally be much better as far as hepatoxicity goes. They do still have the potential to cause a whole list of side effects. Additionally, IM administration can lead to other issues such as oil embolism, infection, etc. These are not a concern with oral compounds, obviously.

As far as effectiveness, I'd say that many of the "legal" options are much more effective than their illicit counterparts. Superdrol for instance, I'd put against almost any other oral, whether legal or not, in terms of its ability to put on LBM.

I cannot honestly say that I would rather run a drug that is going to strap on that much strength and meat in as little as 4 weeks. I have found, in my day, this is to much to fast. You do not have time to adapt to it ... a 12 week inj cycle is much more doable IMO ... From top to bottom, cover all aspects, a much better option if it was legal.

 

[Zero V]

Not condoning either, though I've had my trials, but whom among us has gained 20lbs on a pro or designer and kept 15lbs of lbm?
If that were the case then all you would have to do is run 3 cycles or and be done with it for life...
I'll say that, maybe, 3 percent of people have done that, which have used pros. Now if we're talking designers then the percentage goes up quite a bit.

If I hopped on lets say....m-drol right now, at 150~ I would most definitly add a good 15~ lbs of mass, and being only 165 afterwards, could probably add another pound or two in PCT. But I am staying natural for another good 8months -year. Until I wiegh 175-180 lbs, then maybe... The thing with a PH is people are too lax with em.

They take them in the summer to cut, or in the winter to bulk, but the time they spend in between they dont do things right. Plus everyone bulks up all nice big n puffy in wintertime and maybe weigh 200 lbs, then as summer comes they jump on something dry and cut as hard as they can down to 185 for that shredded look.

Every one keeps saying people dont know what they are doing because they never keep that weight forever...neither do AAS users, otherwords we would have guys weighing 700 lbs solid muscle mass from 8 years of AAS use and such.

They are to be treated as tool, aids, an extra boost that helps you reach your current goal. And they are to be taken as serious as a gun. Used right, makes life better, but if you wanna play around and act retarded....then issues arise. H-drol as such would be great for a cut to maintain muscle mass so you lose less while being calorie deficient. and so on.

Legal, illegal, bleh. The only negative I see are unprepared idiots, teens who want to be stupid, and abusers who prefer to stay on cycle for all of eternity if they could.

all IMO

 

[hardknock]

i went from 185 to 202 for a 6 week run of tren/hdrol and kept 16 of the 17 pounds so far (starting my 4th week of PCT). PM me in a couple weeks and i'll let you know if i kept 15 of them

That post was meant for true pros not designers that people toss off as pros ... I just can't edit from my phone for some reason...a designer I can see (ive done it) but a TRUE pro, doubtful

 

[hardknock]

I did say 3 perct also

 

[suncloud]

That post was meant for true pros not designers that people toss off as pros ... I just can't edit from my phone for some reason...a designer I can see (ive done it) but a TRUE pro, doubtful

on a professional level, its much harder for sure

 

[n8te]

I have read numerous posts where people are claiming to retain 15 lbs off a legal stack...

Before some of its ingredients were banned a co-worker of mine took Omnivol. Its a pretty serious compound but he retained about 22lbs and he was on the stuff for 5 weeks. I would never take the stuff but it worked for him.

 

[WebDesigner]

quick background...

So about a year and a half ago I found AM and starting reading habitually. I read a lot on the normal illegal AAS stuff but I focused a lot more on the legal stuff. I think it was a combination beteen the fact that there was so many company owners on the boards talking there product up and so many people that were trying it that it seemed the legal stuff was more "popular". So I read and read and read and finally decided at the age 23, weight of 220~ to try my second legal cycle now that im somewhat "educated".

As I read through AM there was still a lot of questions I had that went unanswered. I hit up google and started to sway away from AM. This is what I found...

From what I can gather after reading the **** out of AM for almost 2 years and the last 2 or 3 weeks reading the **** out of other online Gear forums is NONE of them emphasis the prohormones like AM does. In fact, most the guys on all these other "popular" site wont even consider and all oral cycle a cycle. Im reading things like " that stuff is just a waste of money..."

So I was curious on AMs thoughts. Is it just that the legal prohormones are so well marketed on this board that its almost "the way to go" or is there really a place for these legal alternatives (before the gov pulls them...?


Because now that I have everything for my first (err) well, second prohormone cycle, I definatly spent enough cash where I could have done a basic test e cycle at 500mg/week for 12 weeks and been at around the same price as the prohormones I purchased.


I guess the question up for debate is, is there any way the legal stuff can compete with the Illegal AAS when it comes to muscle building, cost comparrison, ect.

Discuss.

Edit, If I was smart enough to spell I wouldnt be a construction worker. Dont mind the grammer...

I noticed how no one mentioned what you said about AM emphasizing ph more than any other forum and it is definitely true. I think its because most people here are casual supplement users and eventually want to take it to the next level and pro hormones are the answer here. Most users here don't have "real world" gear connections so ph is the closest thing.

IMO gear is better but ph is not a bad choice.

 

[Mike1605]

I noticed how no one mentioned what you said about AM emphasizing ph more than any other forum and it is definitely true. I think its because most people here are casual supplement users and eventually want to take it to the next level and pro hormones are the answer here. Most users here don't have "real world" gear connections so ph is the closest thing.

IMO gear is better but ph is not a bad choice.

Yes, Like I said for the past year and a half i have literally read ATLEAST 2 hours a day on various forums (desk jobs rule!) and AM is by far the biggest on the legal stuff. But when the majority of the board is sponsored by the companies that make the legal stuff I guess its no wonder why. Not saying that as a bad thing, with the sponsors. its just what is pushed.

 

[sethroberts]

Yes, Like I said for the past year and a half i have literally read ATLEAST 2 hours a day on various forums (desk jobs rule!) and AM is by far the biggest on the legal stuff. But when the majority of the board is sponsored by the companies that make the legal stuff I guess its no wonder why. Not saying that as a bad thing, with the sponsors. its just what is pushed.

I think that is a bit naive -- if you don't think there is a ton of use of "legal" stuff at bb.com then you have your eyes closed. I don't think it is a matter of stuff being pushed, but rather a more tolerant atmosphere that doesn't flame people when they mention prohormones and such.

 

[Smiley]

I think you are exactly right about the rep comment. The reps here at AM have a huge impact. I honestly think thats why the legal options are huge here. A lot of the "gurus" here are reps.

You might be able to gain the same amount in your first year from legal and nonlegal steroids. The benefits of the old school stuff come more into play with the advanced users. The health risks for the legal option are much higher too. Stress on your liver is huge with most methyls and the "tren" compounds arnt methyl, but mess with your bp, lipids, and have a higher chance of gyno from what i've seen.

Just look around for the biggest and strongest people on any forum. They are all using injectables. How many pro bbers or powerlifters do you think there are that arnt pinning multiple compounds?

 

[OME]

I think there is also a misconception in some people's minds that prohormones are safer than AAS. In terms of the legal factor, yes they are. However, they can have just as much of an effect, if not more, on your liver, blood pressure, cholesterol levels.

For me at least, AAS is out of the question for now. I've had one small scrape with the law already and don't want to repeat that experience. However, If they do ever re-legalize AAS I'll will also be one of the first people in line to stock up on Test.

 

[mathis50262]

I so want to run gear! Have done my research, found a very reputable source, but cant get myself to do it! I am 28 days from getting off of a 3 1/2 year probation streak for possession charges from 4 years ago. So tempting, but I will tell you first hand, that giving up you freedom isn't worth looking like Ronnie!

 

[UKStrength]

Even over here in the UK where you can get AAS pretty easily and cheaply, the main thing that worried me about my last cycle was the purity.

Whilst I was pretty sure at the time I had legitimate AAS, I had no way of knowing what was in those vials until I injected it (even after hours of research to help with determining fakes).

In some ways, whilst the newer PH/DS are probably not as safe/effective, at least the products from the companies on this board are tried and tested by people I can PM and there's no shortage of advice from the mods and reps. I can have faith in that, not a glass vial filled with strange oil from some guy I've never spoken to....

For you guys over in the US I think the choice is all too clear when the legal ramifications are so costly for a few lbs of muscle mass.

 

[Lou22]

Definately agree with that, even though there is some shady business when it come to the prohormone world ,"whats really in trenadrol", for the most part you know what your putting into your body. when it comes to trying to buy illegal injectables,unless you have alot of knowledge and a great connection, which most people dont, it gets seriously sketch and just not worth it bro.

 

[pfafkl13]

I wanted to add that the amount of toxicity in methly products may be debateable. A few months ago I was listening to Dirk's broadcast on Superhuman radio and he had a pretty convincing arguement that they weren't as bad as you thought...