Androgel and Anabolics

[snowbird]

I have been prescribed with androgel due to low natural testosterone. It is only a 50mg dose of testosterone rubbed directly into the skin. I have yet to touch an anabolic but would definitely like to. I wanted to see if anyone on this board had any experience with doing a cycle with already low testosterone. My question is:
How would i use the androgel? Would i use it during the whole cycle, just pct or wait till after the cycle is done to start it back up?

By the way I plan on doing a dbol/test/deca stack if that changes anything.

 

[Random181]

If you are on TRT then you are at a good advantage as far as cycling goes, because you can never lost baseline test on an PH cycles like most would, If you wanna run test/deca/dbol though you are gonna be injecting way more than enough test then I would say stop TRT on cycle and resume it around 14 days after your last test injection, since that is when the injected test will mostly have cleared, I presume your using the ethanate ester?

 

[snowbird]

If you are on TRT then you are at a good advantage as far as cycling goes, because you can never lost baseline test on an PH cycles like most would, If you wanna run test/deca/dbol though you are gonna be injecting way more than enough test then I would say stop TRT on cycle and resume it around 14 days after your last test injection, since that is when the injected test will mostly have cleared, I presume your using the ethanate ester?

Awesome thanks for the info. Im actually still very early into researching. I dont know what the difference is between ethanate, cpyionate and proprianate. But from what ive been reading i will use ethanate I believe.

 

[Random181]

Ethanate is the long acting test ester, it only needs to be pinned twice a week, cyp I believe is similar and prop has a short half life and usually needs to be pinned EOD.

 

[mj34]

Honestly, the gel imo isnt that great. Yeah it says 50mgs but i believe you get 5-10mgs though. However; when you inject test you get a lot more. I believe test e has like a 72percent bioavailibity rate, so if you are running 500mgs of test you get about 360mgs. However when no ester is involved in the case of test suspension you get all of it, so one injects 100mgs, then one gets 100mgs. Normally, its best to run just test@500mgs EW for the first 10-12 weeks to see how your body responds. When you add in other compounds and you get sides your lack of experience will not allow you to dictate which one is causing the problem. However; this is a pretty basic cycle so if I were you I would run this:
Test@600mgs (1-14)
Deca@300mgs(1-12)
Dbol@25mgsED(1-4)...wait till 2 weeks after you last inject of test to start PCT which should consist of Nolva@40/40/20/20...dbol is notorious for bloating its the only compound that does this to me, so if I were you I would get some adex and keep it on hand and when and if you start getting bloat, try the arimidex out at .5mgsEOD or .25mgsED, you may have to play with the doses until you find what works for you but you shouldnt never ever need more than 1mgof adexED. Hope this post helps. As far as the androgel goes tell your doctor that it gets on your family members and you are worried about it and see if he will switch you over to watson test cypionate; if not, then start the androgel after you pct as during your pct you dont want any endogenous test in your body. Proviron is okay to use during PCT at it does help a lot...wait a minute keep this post in mind but I just realized that **** u are on trt so you dont need to do a PCT...so after cycle just start the androgel or use test e/c at 200mgsEW, even 100mgs would be sufficient and when you go to do bloodwork if you keep it at 100mgsEW your t-levels will be in the normal range. Feel free to ask I have been on TRT for 4 years

 

[mj34]

I personally prefer to pin twice a week because imo it keeps the blood levels more stable and I dont get acne as much. The worst acne comes to me during trt and this is because of fluctuating horomone levels and it really sucks and I have to go on antibiotics and creams most of the time to combat...just started a cycle and almost all acne is gone...my body like moderate to high doses I guess

 

[snowbird]

Ethanate is the long acting test ester, it only needs to be pinned twice a week, cyp I believe is similar and prop has a short half life and usually needs to be pinned EOD.

Thanks Random repped again when i can.

Honestly, the gel imo isnt that great. Yeah it says 50mgs but i believe you get 5-10mgs though. However; when you inject test you get a lot more. I believe test e has like a 72percent bioavailibity rate, so if you are running 500mgs of test you get about 360mgs. However when no ester is involved in the case of test suspension you get all of it, so one injects 100mgs, then one gets 100mgs. Normally, its best to run just test@500mgs EW for the first 10-12 weeks to see how your body responds. When you add in other compounds and you get sides your lack of experience will not allow you to dictate which one is causing the problem. However; this is a pretty basic cycle so if I were you I would run this:
Test@600mgs (1-14)
Deca@300mgs(1-12)
Dbol 25mgsED(1-4)...waittill 2 weeks after you last inject of test to start PCT which should consist of Nolva 40/40/20/20...dbol is notorious for bloating its the only compound that does this to me, so if I were you I would get some adex and keep it on hand and when and if you start getting bloat, try the arimidex out at .5mgsEOD or .25mgsED, you may have to play with the doses until you find what works for you but you shouldnt never ever need more than 1mgof adexED. Hope this post helps. As far as the androgel goes tell your doctor that it gets on your family members and you are worried about it and see if he will switch you over to watson test cypionate; if not, then start the androgel after you pct as during your pct you dont want any endogenous test in your body. Proviron is okay to use during PCT at it does help a lot...wait a minute keep this post in mind but I just realized that **** u are on trt so you dont need to do a PCT...so after cycle just start the androgel or use test e/c at 200mgsEW, even 100mgs would be sufficient and when you go to do bloodwork if you keep it at 100mgsEW your t-levels will be in the normal range. Feel free to ask I have been on TRT for 4 years

Hey mj thats a lot of useful info but the post slightly confused me. My plan so far is:
12 weeks 500mg test ethanate
10 weeks 250mg deca
4 weeks 30mg dbol (started at the same time as the test)
250iu of hcg every 4 days started at week 3
Supports:
Animal pak
Animal flex
10 grams a day of fish oil
Taurine
EAA/BCAA's
Anabolic innovations cycle support
500mg Vitamin C
Powerful sleep supplement
PCT: Started 2 weeks after last test injection
40mg a day dose of Toremifene(still havent found how many weeks to do this)
25mg a day dose of Clomid(still havent found how many weeks to do this)
Primordial performance TRS stack
Androgel(50mg of test)
PCT supports:
Creatine (Gaspari Sizeon)
NO shotgun
Normal multivitamin/joint complex
3mg Melatonin

This is what I have setup so far. I know its probably going to cost me a small fortune. Feel free to make any suggestions. As far as what my doctor gives me he is willing to give me the injection type instead do you believe its that much better than the gel?

 

[mooch2321]

why are you running clomid and tor if your on trt?

 

[holyintellect]

Lets take this one step at a time....

Since your doctor is only willing to give you androgel, which is literally about one step up the food chain from worthless, if you further suppress yourself after running a cycle, then you are really going to feel like ****. You also need to make sure he isnt going to want a blood test anytime soon, because if he does, and you're on cycle, it will appear that the androgel has made your test levels go up and out the roof.

You certainly do not need to use deca and dbol with the test. If you are deficient, simply running 500mgs of test a week will make you feel like a beast. You could go much lower, and still reap many benefits since you are already behind the eight ball. 400-500mgs is probably a good efficient dose for virtually everyone.

I would use propionate if you're not against pinning often, and run a shorter cycle. 100mgs of prop EOD would truly make you feel like Conan.

holy

 

[snowbird]

why are you running clomid and tor if your on trt?

Mooch is there no need for a SERM if im on trt? I think that might have been the idea MJ was trying to get across i just didnt fully understand his post. According to my doctor I am in the lower region of testosterone production but not fully shutdown if this has any bearing on your answer.

Lets take this one step at a time....

Since your doctor is only willing to give you androgel, which is literally about one step up the food chain from worthless, if you further suppress yourself after running a cycle, then you are really going to feel like ****. You also need to make sure he isnt going to want a blood test anytime soon, because if he does, and you're on cycle, it will appear that the androgel has made your test levels go up and out the roof.

You certainly do not need to use deca and dbol with the test. If you are deficient, simply running 500mgs of test a week will make you feel like a beast. You could go much lower, and still reap many benefits since you are already behind the eight ball. 400-500mgs is probably a good efficient dose for virtually everyone.

I would use propionate if you're not against pinning often, and run a shorter cycle. 100mgs of prop EOD would truly make you feel like Conan.

holy

Hey holy,
My doctor is willing to try other options with me. He told me there is an oral, a patch or an injection as the other options. I just wanted to research the other options more first before i decide to switch. As far as suppressing my test more that is what im on this board for to learn as much a I can to minimize that chance and maximize the gains i make and keep. I have blood tests done periodically but i will make sure to have one done right before the cycle starts and postpone the next till after pct. He is pretty lenient on that.

I know I don't NEED the deca and dbol. Hell nobody needs AAS period but Ive been told by some credible people (no not other 21 year olds saying take this youll get HUGE) that i know personally that you only get one first cycle so ive tried to find one that could give me some great gains without being completely over the top for an intro cycle. Its not 100% set in stone but it does look very appetizing to me so far. I am always open to more suggestions. But i have found pinning seems to be the way to go if I have access to it. As I posted above im not completely dry of test but I am in the lower range.

As for the last part. Care to explain the 100mgs of EOD more frequently idea a little bit more. I haven't thought of or looked into this approach yet. Also what does EOD stand for? Lol sorry still a newb.

 

[mj34]

sSorry for the confusion I love to write. Um, yeah what you had outlined is ismiliar to what I said. Next time around run Deca at 400 cause that is where it get sueful in terms of gains and joint relief. Deca is to joints what wd40 is to a squeaky door bro. I personally have to run my test twice as high as my deca if not, I may have libido and limp **** issues. Not everyone responds this way, some can get away with 100-200mgs higher, so its a trial and error thing bro. **** yeah, the gel sucks, defintly go with the watson test cyp he will give u, there is no ****ing comparison and if some idiot on here says it is, there are a ****ing tool, sorry bad day for me. Bro, it looks like you got it down pat brother and what is going to cost you is all those damn supplements. I would keep animal packs, fish oil. no, creatine, extra vit c and etc...dont buy into the supplement hype. If BP goes up take a product called Super Oderless Garlic with Hawthorne Extract its 12.49 at bb.com. I like your cycle but if you are going on TRT why even do a PCT bro, Im sorry but that doesnt make sense. Oh, MAKE SURE THAT U KEEP ADEX ON HAND IM NOT KIDDING ABOUT DBOL AND BLOAT BRO, BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY, NO???

 

[Bait]

100mg of test propionate every other day (eod)
as opposed to 500mg of test-e/week (2 shots/week)
Prop is faster acting because of the short ester so you can do shorter cycles basically...

the reason for dbol is to kick start your cycle because you usually start to feel the effects of test-e around week 3-5 (depends on the person)


Either way 100mg/eod or 500mg/week you will notice a nice difference.

 

[holyintellect]

Mooch is there no need for a SERM if im on trt?

Not really....the SERM works to restore your endogenous production...since you have very little, its not likely to help much, especially since you can go straight back to the HRT.

According to my doctor I am in the lower region of testosterone production but not fully shutdown if this has any bearing on your answer.

You are suppressed now...you run the chance of either further suppression or shutdown by running a "true" cycle where your mgs are supraphysiological.

He told me there is an oral, a patch or an injection as the other options.

Even if you're fortunate enough to get the injection, it is extremely unlikely that he will give you more than 200mgs every other week....which is well below what you would take for bodybuilding purposes.

I know I don't NEED the deca and dbol. Hell nobody needs AAS period but Ive been told by some credible people (no not other 21 year olds saying take this youll get HUGE) that i know personally that you only get one first cycle so ive tried to find one that could give me some great gains without being completely over the top for an intro cycle.

Two things here...first off, that cycle IS over the top for an intro cycle, ESPECIALLY FOR SOMEONE WHO IS HYPOGONADAL. Its all about using as little as you can and being efficient with your chemicals. You are in a unique position that you can likely make great gains on very little. As I said, 400mgs will likely make you feel like a beast! Secondly, and I dont mean this to sound arrogant, but I dont care what "credible" people told you. I am business partners with an IFBB Pro...I trained with him and outlined his supplements for many of his pro shows, including the Arnold and the Olympia...I have outlined chemicals MANY times for pro athletes...thats what I do. I have worked with and done contest prep for more guys than I can recall....There are not many things I havent seen in this sport, but if Im unsure of something, I will certainly admit it...in this case, your "credible" friends are way off base.

Care to explain the 100mgs of EOD more frequently idea a little bit more. Also what does EOD stand for?

Propionate is a shorter acting testosterone...It will give you a spike much quicker than either enanthate or cypionate. This will allow you to do a much shorter cycle (8 weeks), and still reap the same rewards. Also, since you havent used before, it will allow you to spot the sides quicker and start to control them more efficiently. You can take somewhere between 75-100mgs of prop EOD (every other day) and this will be plenty for you.....

Good Luck....

holy

 

[snowbird]

sSorry for the confusion I love to write. Um, yeah what you had outlined is ismiliar to what I said. Next time around run Deca at 400 cause that is where it get sueful in terms of gains and joint relief. Deca is to joints what wd40 is to a squeaky door bro. I personally have to run my test twice as high as my deca if not, I may have libido and limp **** issues. Not everyone responds this way, some can get away with 100-200mgs higher, so its a trial and error thing bro. **** yeah, the gel sucks, defintly go with the watson test cyp he will give u, there is no ****ing comparison and if some idiot on here says it is, there are a ****ing tool, sorry bad day for me. Bro, it looks like you got it down pat brother and what is going to cost you is all those damn supplements. I would keep animal packs, fish oil. no, creatine, extra vit c and etc...dont buy into the supplement hype. If BP goes up take a product called Super Oderless Garlic with Hawthorne Extract its 12.49 at bb.com. I like your cycle but if you are going on TRT why even do a PCT bro, Im sorry but that doesnt make sense. Oh, MAKE SURE THAT U KEEP ADEX ON HAND IM NOT KIDDING ABOUT DBOL AND BLOAT BRO, BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY, NO???

Alright I definitely talk to him about the injection. I dont know what type of injection he meant but ill ask him about the watson test cyp. I definitely dont by into the supps havent for a while now. Right now Ive got my basic 2 a day multi, fish oil, creatine and 50lbs of bulk flavorless whey protein. Basically as cheap as you can get as far as supps go. I figured for the cycle id reap as many benefits as i can from things known to work well for there purposes. Try and maximize and keep what i get. Im still reading up on how a pct does what it does which is why ive been looking at the SERMs. I had no idea my TRT was sufficient for that. Ill look into adex for sure. Now is that legal product or for "research purposes" or just illegal? I really appreciate all the help.

Not really....the SERM works to restore your endogenous production...since you have very little, its not likely to help much, especially since you can go straight back to the HRT.

Ok. That explains the test production. What would i do as far as estrogen conversion i.e. gyno?

You are suppressed now...you run the chance of either further suppression or shutdown by running a "true" cycle where your mgs are supraphysiological.

I definitely understand that but even though i start at a lower point does that make me more susceptible to shutdown?



Even if you're fortunate enough to get the injection, it is extremely unlikely that he will give you more than 200mgs every other week....which is well below what you would take for bodybuilding purposes.

I know its not for bb purposes but its sounds like it is a step up from the gel? Plus i am pretty sick of worrying about rubbing it on people or if i go swimming and so on. So I think i will get the shot going.


Two things here...first off, that cycle IS over the top for an intro cycle, ESPECIALLY FOR SOMEONE WHO IS HYPOGONADAL. Its all about using as little as you can and being efficient with your chemicals. You are in a unique position that you can likely make great gains on very little. As I said, 400mgs will likely make you feel like a beast! Secondly, and I dont mean this to sound arrogant, but I dont care what "credible" people told you. I am business partners with an IFBB Pro...I trained with him and outlined his supplements for many of his pro shows, including the Arnold and the Olympia...I have outlined chemicals MANY times for pro athletes...thats what I do. I have worked with and done contest prep for more guys than I can recall....There are not many things I havent seen in this sport, but if Im unsure of something, I will certainly admit it...in this case, your "credible" friends are way off base.

I think my previous post came off wrong. Didnt mean to question your credibility at all. And no they did not say do this cycle exactly I was told i can do a decent amount for the first cycle and they will help me through it. I was simply stating they are not my 21 year old friends who drink on cycle, have no idea what pct is and stop lifting after their cycle and think the gains will stay. Enough about that though im here for info. So what im getting from you is I shouldn't be stacking for the first cycle at all? What if i were to lower the doses of everything? I also really appreciate your help on all this.


Propionate is a shorter acting testosterone...It will give you a spike much quicker than either enanthate or cypionate. This will allow you to do a much shorter cycle (8 weeks), and still reap the same rewards. Also, since you havent used before, it will allow you to spot the sides quicker and start to control them more efficiently. You can take somewhere between 75-100mgs of prop EOD (every other day) and this will be plenty for you.....

So if its not to much work for you what would be your ideal first cycle for someone in my situation? Including anything i should do along with my TRT for pct purposes.

Good Luck....

holy

Holy thanks again.

 

[Random181]

Im not sure what country you are in but in america serms, AI's all that are legal to be bought as research chems and only become illegal when they are used by people, in england it is legal to have a 3 month supply of any non controlled prescription drug without a prescription (bought from an online pharmacy) Im not sure of the laws on online pharmacys in america but most seem to use research chems

 

[holyintellect]

I think an ideal first cycle for almost anyone is going to be testosterone ran alone.....the ester isnt really relative, as that can be switched based on each persons needs or wants (ie fear of pinning would lend to a longer ester). Propionate at 100mgs EOD, enanthate or cypionate at 400-500mgs a week broken down into two injections, or a blend of esters will all work wonders. Your levels are subpar right now, so you are going to respond more favorably than someone who is in the higher range. Since you have a problem that is lending itself to hypogonadism, using supraphysiologic amounts of gear could quite possibly cause you additional problems, resulting in further suppresssion of the testes. If this is the case, you always have the HRT to resort back to.

holy

 

[snowbird]

Im not sure what country you are in but in america serms, AI's all that are legal to be bought as research chems and only become illegal when they are used by people, in england it is legal to have a 3 month supply of any non controlled prescription drug without a prescription (bought from an online pharmacy) Im not sure of the laws on online pharmacys in america but most seem to use research chems

Oh ok I didnt know adex was an AI. Yeah i can get it for research and im in the U.S.

I think an ideal first cycle for almost anyone is going to be testosterone ran alone.....the ester isnt really relative, as that can be switched based on each persons needs or wants (ie fear of pinning would lend to a longer ester). Propionate at 100mgs EOD, enanthate or cypionate at 400-500mgs a week broken down into two injections, or a blend of esters will all work wonders. Your levels are subpar right now, so you are going to respond more favorably than someone who is in the higher range. Since you have a problem that is lending itself to hypogonadism, using supraphysiologic amounts of gear could quite possibly cause you additional problems, resulting in further suppresssion of the testes. If this is the case, you always have the HRT to resort back to.

holy

Well i think you've successfully convinced me of the test prop idea and ill take my im superman mentality down a few notches lol. Ive never pinned myself for anything but whenever i get blood work or shots i can watch them do it and am just fine with it. So i think i can handle the more frequent injection. So the idea im throwing around now is:
8 weeks of 100mg test prop EOD
would i still want to run HCG? If so 250 ui every 4 days weeks 3-8?
Along with the supporting supps i had listed earlier
PCT:
Back to TRT 14 days after last injection
Along with supporting supps listed earlier

Where would the injection site be? Also any suggestion for gyno prevention?
Out of curiosity is there any possibility of raising my natural levels?
Just started reading Anabolics 09 that thing is as big as my general biology book haha.

 

[Random181]

Prop has a short half life, you might as start back on TRT a day or 2 after your last injection, also for gyno prevention get some tamoxifen

 

[snowbird]

Prop has a short half life, you might as start back on TRT a day or 2 after your last injection, also for gyno prevention get some tamoxifen

Ok so with prop id get back on TRT shortly after the last injection but with ethanate because of the longer acting ester id wait about 2 weeks?

So maybe a low dose gyno effective SERM along with my TRT for PCT purposes? Holy acronyms batman.

 

[Random181]

Best just to keep the serm on hand and use it if you get signs off gyno and yes the change in time to start pct/TRT is due to the life of the ester.