Why are people against tapering down?

orangutan

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Every drug ive ever done in my life its better to taper down, to prevent the sudden withdrawl... or "crash". It makes sense to me to taper off test as well, but for some reason it seems like everyone gives advise not to. i would think the sudden crash from cutting off the test would greatly hinder your gains... not just because youre shutdown, but because of the depression/lack of motivation. it seems like the best way to go would be to taper down while using hcg at the same time. this would bring back the natty test, then taper off that as well
 
sethroberts

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Every drug ive ever done in my life its better to taper down, to prevent the sudden withdrawl... or "crash". It makes sense to me to taper off test as well, but for some reason it seems like everyone gives advise not to. i would think the sudden crash from cutting off the test would greatly hinder your gains... not just because youre shutdown, but because of the depression/lack of motivation. it seems like the best way to go would be to taper down while using hcg at the same time. this would bring back the natty test, then taper off that as well
I am a proponent of tapering down. The current bro-lore states that any amount of exogenous AAS will shut down natural testosterone production. While this is true, it is not an on/off switch but more of a dimmer. as you taper off, your body will start to produce more test in response. This results in more gradual resumption of testosterone production rather than an abrupt loss of androgenic stimulation. Also, testosterone production is not the only issue post cycle. Adrenal function is also an important part. Tapering seems to help suppress some of the rebound in cortisol production.
 
ralph4u2c

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Every drug ive ever done in my life its better to taper down, to prevent the sudden withdrawl... or "crash". It makes sense to me to taper off test as well, but for some reason it seems like everyone gives advise not to. i would think the sudden crash from cutting off the test would greatly hinder your gains... not just because youre shutdown, but because of the depression/lack of motivation. it seems like the best way to go would be to taper down while using hcg at the same time. this would bring back the natty test, then taper off that as well
its all about the MoA and half-life bro.
 
repmks

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in regards to shut down. some guy just ran m-drol at 3mg per day and got complete shut down. i believe his test levels were around 70 ng/dl. normal is 400-1000. so regarding shut down of testosterone only idk if there is any benefit. i think his thread was called "low dose m-drol"
 
sethroberts

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in regards to shut down. some guy just ran m-drol at 3mg per day and got complete shut down. i believe his test levels were around 70 ng/dl. normal is 400-1000. so regarding shut down of testosterone only idk if there is any benefit. i think his thread was called "low dose m-drol"
It would be hard to taper down from 3 mg of mdrol anyway. When most people are talking about tapering, they are usually talking about high dose orals or injectables. Again, it is not all about test levels.
 

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Say someone was to use a Superdrol clone. Would tapering down work if say he did a 5 week run, with something like 10/20/30/20/10? You would only have one week at a pretty high dose, and the tapering should help with the jumpstart, right? Isn't this what they used to call pyramid cycling back in the 70's and 80's? I think I remember seeing this in the old AR Guide. I know that is how we started, as advised by a friend, for my first Dbol cycle. If I remember correctly, it was the same dosing. Never even ran an anti- estrogen. Lost the water weight and some gains, but things got back to normal rather quickly. Gotta remember, this was back in the late 80's. A/E were not considered essential to my knowledge back then.
 
ibanezman08

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it does not make sense to taper down on test at all

how does loosing size before pct sound?
 
sethroberts

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it does not make sense to taper down on test at all

how does loosing size before pct sound?
Who said you would delay PCT. Why not initiate PCT during the taper. Do you think it makes better sense to go from 800 mg a week of test down to zero? Not to mention having no opposition to elevated ACTH levels and the resulting cortisol rebound? This is actually of greater concern than test levels.

A lot of people are going to flame for mentioning tapering because the no tapering idea has been parroted for years. Tapering (and pyramidding) were used for years before people used OCT and PCT and you still hug guys walking around. In fact I think you see more problems now due to no tapering and the excessive OCT/PCT that people use (like higher dose AIs).

Tapering may not be the "hardcore" thing to do and may "waste" drug but in my opinion, it will result in a healthier transition from on to off.
 
sethroberts

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Say someone was to use a Superdrol clone. Would tapering down work if say he did a 5 week run, with something like 10/20/30/20/10? You would only have one week at a pretty high dose, and the tapering should help with the jumpstart, right? Isn't this what they used to call pyramid cycling back in the 70's and 80's? I think I remember seeing this in the old AR Guide. I know that is how we started, as advised by a friend, for my first Dbol cycle. If I remember correctly, it was the same dosing. Never even ran an anti- estrogen. Lost the water weight and some gains, but things got back to normal rather quickly. Gotta remember, this was back in the late 80's. A/E were not considered essential to my knowledge back then.
I'm not sure I would recommend tapering on superdrol due to its very strong suppressive effects on the adrenal. It might be better to bridge to something weaker as a "taper" and then transition into PCT.
 
lennoxchi

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Who said you would delay PCT. Why not initiate PCT during the taper. Do you think it makes better sense to go from 800 mg a week of test down to zero? Not to mention having no opposition to elevated ACTH levels and the resulting cortisol rebound? This is actually of greater concern than test levels.

A lot of people are going to flame for mentioning tapering because the no tapering idea has been parroted for years. Tapering (and pyramidding) were used for years before people used OCT and PCT and you still hug guys walking around. In fact I think you see more problems now due to no tapering and the excessive OCT/PCT that people use (like higher dose AIs).

Tapering may not be the "hardcore" thing to do and may "waste" drug but in my opinion, it will result in a healthier transition from on to off.
interesting outlook. so when running 500mgs of test-e for 12 weeks, are you suggesting going to 250mgs a week for the last 2 weeks or so? and starting your SERM within the last week (week 12 right before you go "off")?
 
Mulletsoldier

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Who said you would delay PCT. Why not initiate PCT during the taper. Do you think it makes better sense to go from 800 mg a week of test down to zero? Not to mention having no opposition to elevated ACTH levels and the resulting cortisol rebound? This is actually of greater concern than test levels.

A lot of people are going to flame for mentioning tapering because the no tapering idea has been parroted for years. Tapering (and pyramidding) were used for years before people used OCT and PCT and you still hug guys walking around. In fact I think you see more problems now due to no tapering and the excessive OCT/PCT that people use (like higher dose AIs).

Tapering may not be the "hardcore" thing to do and may "waste" drug but in my opinion, it will result in a healthier transition from on to off.
I agree. And this is not to mention the cosmetic side-effects which may erupt due to wild fluctuations in hormone levels.

Unless you wish to ruin your brakes, you do not speed up prior to a stoplight and slam on your brakes; you come to a gradual stop. Same premise.
 
lennoxchi

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seth and mullet, you guys have me interested in this. this fall i will be running my 1st inject cycle. Test-e for 10 weeks @ 500,gs a week/ d-bol weeks 1-4 30mgs ED and winny weeks 6-10 50mgs ED. would it be advisable to taper with a cycle like this?
 
sethroberts

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interesting outlook. so when running 500mgs of test-e for 12 weeks, are you suggesting going to 250mgs a week for the last 2 weeks or so? and starting your SERM within the last week (week 12 right before you go "off")?
This could actually turn into an interesting discussion. To me you could opt for a slow taper or a fast taper. A slow taper would bring levels down more gradually - so maybe go from 500 to 250 to 125 to 50 per week and introduce your PCT when you drop down to 250. With a fast taper, you could drop down to 50 mg per week for 2 to 3 weeks and start your PCT the same way (that is, when you drop the dose down) -- this might be more acceptable to those who are against tapering or who don't want to "waste" drug. A lot of it depends on which drugs are being used at which doses. I am really opposed to the one size fits all apporach.
 
sethroberts

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seth and mullet, you guys have me interested in this. this fall i will be running my 1st inject cycle. Test-e for 10 weeks @ 500,gs a week/ d-bol weeks 1-4 30mgs ED and winny weeks 6-10 50mgs ED. would it be advisable to taper with a cycle like this?
The only question is how. One could taper the test and the winstrol together (250/25 then 125/12.5 etc), or one could drop the winstrol and taper the test or taper the test and then taper the winstrol. There would be advantages and disadvantages to each.
 
mooch2321

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Who said you would delay PCT. Why not initiate PCT during the taper. Do you think it makes better sense to go from 800 mg a week of test down to zero? Not to mention having no opposition to elevated ACTH levels and the resulting cortisol rebound? This is actually of greater concern than test levels.

A lot of people are going to flame for mentioning tapering because the no tapering idea has been parroted for years. Tapering (and pyramidding) were used for years before people used OCT and PCT and you still hug guys walking around. In fact I think you see more problems now due to no tapering and the excessive OCT/PCT that people use (like higher dose AIs).

Tapering may not be the "hardcore" thing to do and may "waste" drug but in my opinion, it will result in a healthier transition from on to off.


sorry seth....i respect your knowledge and you have had some good posts....but your dead wrong here....regardless of pyrimiding, tapering or running a straight cycle....i NEVER hug guys when im walking around.....
 
sethroberts

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sorry seth....i respect your knowledge and you have had some good posts....but your dead wrong here....regardless of pyrimiding, tapering or running a straight cycle....i NEVER hug guys when im walking around.....
That is your problem -- you are only running straight cycles and not hugging guys.
 
crazyfool405

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Who said you would delay PCT. Why not initiate PCT during the taper. Do you think it makes better sense to go from 800 mg a week of test down to zero? Not to mention having no opposition to elevated ACTH levels and the resulting cortisol rebound? This is actually of greater concern than test levels.

A lot of people are going to flame for mentioning tapering because the no tapering idea has been parroted for years. Tapering (and pyramidding) were used for years before people used OCT and PCT and you still hug guys walking around. In fact I think you see more problems now due to no tapering and the excessive OCT/PCT that people use (like higher dose AIs).

Tapering may not be the "hardcore" thing to do and may "waste" drug but in my opinion, it will result in a healthier transition from on to off.

what about the half life? wouldnt that give a taper? you will have X amount in your system for a certian amount and becomes less and less...

this is why use and reccommend hCG post cycle, during that "down" time at high doses along with ADEX. then start clomid a week or 2 after i start hCG
 
sethroberts

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what about the half life? wouldnt that give a taper? you will have X amount in your system for a certian amount and becomes less and less...

this is why use and reccommend hCG post cycle, during that "down" time at high doses along with ADEX. then start clomid a week or 2 after i start hCG
Everybody thinks that long esters in particular are self-tapering. Not really though, if you ever saw a plasma concentration curve you would see that the levels drop off of peak fairly rapidly. Of course it does depend on the dose, the ester or combination of esters.
 
pistonpump

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I agree. And this is not to mention the cosmetic side-effects which may erupt due to wild fluctuations in hormone levels.

Unless you wish to ruin your brakes, you do not speed up prior to a stoplight and slam on your brakes; you come to a gradual stop. Same premise.
really? i do remember contemplating tampering down and i was thinking it was the way to go after much thought but i was shot down here, i believe you were one with strong points against tapering.
 
crazyfool405

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Everybody thinks that long esters in particular are self-tapering. Not really though, if you ever saw a plasma concentration curve you would see that the levels drop off of peak fairly rapidly. Of course it does depend on the dose, the ester or combination of esters.
the general 500mg per week 250 2x a week
 
crazyfool405

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This could actually turn into an interesting discussion. To me you could opt for a slow taper or a fast taper. A slow taper would bring levels down more gradually - so maybe go from 500 to 250 to 125 to 50 per week and introduce your PCT when you drop down to 250. With a fast taper, you could drop down to 50 mg per week for 2 to 3 weeks and start your PCT the same way (that is, when you drop the dose down) -- this might be more acceptable to those who are against tapering or who don't want to "waste" drug. A lot of it depends on which drugs are being used at which doses. I am really opposed to the one size fits all apporach.
can i ask why you would administer PCT WHILE still using exogeneous hormone? and wouldnt that not be effective in terms of recovery ?
 
sethroberts

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can i ask why you would administer PCT WHILE still using exogeneous hormone? and wouldnt that not be effective in terms of recovery ?
It would depend on if you were using OCT or not. But assuming you were not, then idea would be to stimulate natural test production while administering an amount that would result in lower than normal testosterone levels (which would also stimulate natural production).
 
crazyfool405

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It would depend on if you were using OCT or not. But assuming you were not, then idea would be to stimulate natural test production while administering an amount that would result in lower than normal testosterone levels (which would also stimulate natural production).
but wouldnt you still be shut down? i can understand the use of tapering, not not administering PCT during unless its hCG to make sure your testis are still responsive.

and when tapering do you have studies showing that test levels will increase a little even though your administering exogenious hormone?
 
learn

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Originally Posted by solomon1979
It allows your body to adjust to the potency of the compound in question before running it at the working dose. The reason most people don't taper down before PCT is because it doesn't alleviate any suppression of testosterone. The reason people taper down in PCT is to reduce the higher amount of estrogen suppression at the onset of PCT to allow your body to stabilize its own production of estrogen and to provide positive testosterone to estrogen ratios.
 
sethroberts

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but wouldnt you still be shut down? i can understand the use of tapering, not not administering PCT during unless its hCG to make sure your testis are still responsive.

and when tapering do you have studies showing that test levels will increase a little even though your administering exogenious hormone?
That is the problem, you are assuming total shutdown. In this paper (Short-term oxandrolone administration stimulates net muscle protein synthesis in young men.Sheffield-Moore M, Urban RJ, Wolf SE, Jiang J, Catlin DH, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR, Ferrando AA.) they show that 15 mg of oxandrolone results in only partial shutdown after five days. In this paper (Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.) the authors administer a GNRH antagonist to prevent natural testosteorne production because lower doses of testosterone enanthate would not eliminate endogenous testosterone production. I have attached a graph. The blue line represents exogenous testosterone levels after no taper while the red line represents natural testosterone recovery. The yellow line represents exogenous testosterone levels with a taper and the purple line the recovery of ednogenous test. The nadir (or trough) of testosterone is higher in the tapered example.
 

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crazyfool405

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ok but what about HIGH doses 500+ for 3-9 months, like some people do and some competitors do? and this doesnt include orals added on cycle and other compounds
 
sethroberts

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ok but what about HIGH doses 500+ for 3-9 months, like some people do and some competitors do?
Those doses will shut you down -- I don;t think anyone questions that. That is why you taper down -- you go down to a level where some degree of natural testosterone will be produced and the PCT helps to initiate this process.
 
crazyfool405

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Those doses will shut you down -- I don;t think anyone questions that. That is why you taper down -- you go down to a level where some degree of natural testosterone will be produced and the PCT helps to initiate this process.
i guess im still not convinced? do you have anything that shows actual T levels (exo and endo) during a taper? and ive been trying to find a plasma concentration chart on Test cant seem to find it thoguh
 
sethroberts

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i guess im still not convinced? do you have anything that shows actual T levels (exo and endo) during a taper?
No. But that second paper shows the plasma levels achieved by different doses of testosterone in healthy men with total shutdown induced by gnrh antagonist. A dose of 125 mg per week of testosterone enanthate resulted in normal levels of plasma testosterone while a dose of 50 or 25 mg per week did not. Do you think the body, when given these doses would not produce some level of endogenous testosterone to make up the difference?

And I repeat once again, it is not just about testosterone levels but also adrenal function, SHBG levels, estrogen etc...
 
crazyfool405

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No. But that second paper shows the plasma levels achieved by different doses of testosterone in healthy men with total shutdown induced by gnrh antagonist. A dose of 125 mg per week of testosterone enanthate resulted in normal levels of plasma testosterone while a dose of 50 or 25 mg per week did not. Do you think the body, when given these doses would not produce some level of endogenous testosterone to make up the difference?

And I repeat once again, it is not just about testosterone levels but also adrenal function, SHBG levels, estrogen etc...
im just confused because my test levels were a total of 7 at week 5 of 7 pplex mdrol bridge and it was drawn before i took my dose that day. so saying the body would produce some amount really didnt apply here, and all doses were taken BEFORE 6 pm every day
 
sethroberts

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im just confused because my test levels were a total of 7 at week 5 of 7 pplex mdrol bridge and it was drawn before i took my dose that day. so saying the body would produce some amount really didnt apply here, and all doses were taken BEFORE 6 pm every day
You were taking two very potent androgens (you did say mdrol and phera?)-- of course you were totally shut down -- I bet your adrenals were screaming too.
 
crazyfool405

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You were taking two very potent androgens (you did say mdrol and phera?)-- of course you were totally shut down -- I bet your adrenals were screaming too.
who knows i dont think they tested cort levels, but e2 dropped 7 points and prolactin raised.

but tapering them how would that of helped? same way as shown with test?
 
sethroberts

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who knows i dont think they tested cort levels, but e2 dropped 7 points and prolactin raised.

but tapering them how would that of helped? same way as shown with test?
I think I mentioned in this thread that I would not recommend tapering superdrol becasue it is too potent in both an androgenic sense and in its suppression of the adrenals. I recommended a bridge to a weaker substance that could be tapered. It's not a one-size-fits-all process and the options available legally do not necessarily lend themselves to the healthiest and most effective utilization of AAS.
 
mixedup

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it does not make sense to taper down on test at all

how does loosing size before pct sound?

man you pick the worst people to argue with a pharmaceutical scientist with a published book on anabolics... Seth I respect your knowledge but if i have to start walking around hugging guys in the gym i'll stay at featherweight lol
 
sethroberts

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man you pick the worst people to argue with a pharmaceutical scientist with a published book on anabolics... Seth I respect your knowledge but if i have to start walking around hugging guys in the gym i'll stay at featherweight lol
I don't think Ibanezman was looking for an argument -- just expressing his opinion. You don't want to give a big sweaty pumped up guy in the guym a hug? you're sick.
 
crazyfool405

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I don't think Ibanezman was looking for an argument -- just expressing his opinion. You don't want to give a big sweaty pumped up guy in the guym a hug? you're sick.
hey seth a while back i PMed u about a good endo book, you mentioned the williams book, well i got it and your anabolic pharmacology book, just got through about 60 pages of yours, great read soo far cant wait to read on!!!
 
sethroberts

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hey seth a while back i PMed u about a good endo book, you mentioned the williams book, well i got it and your anabolic pharmacology book, just got through about 60 pages of yours, great read soo far cant wait to read on!!!
Thanks. Williams is the definitive endo text in my opinion.
 

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