Please help with first cycle

jeffwill82

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hey guys, i've been reading a lot but there is so much information and so many products out there it can be overwhelming at times, so i thought i would ask some specific questions here.

i'm 28 yrs old, currently around 180 lbs and would like to be around 190 but stay lean and lose some fat in the process. any recommendations on what i could take? two products i was looking at were spawn by myogenix, and ultra ripped stack by APS.

Here are the ingredients for Spawn, which i read is a tren + epi stack:
Estra-4,9-diene-3,17-dione 30mg
2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyletioallocholanol 8mg

Here is the Ultra Ripped Stack ingredients, which i think is superdrol and tren:
19-Norandrosta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione 30mg
2a-17a-dimethyl-5a-androst-3-one-17b-ol 10mg

I've heard good things about Spawn, but it is a little expensive. Let me know if there is anything else i should take a look at.

Since this is my first cycle, safety is a big concern and i want to make sure i do everything right. During the cycle, i was planning on taking Cycle Assist by Competitive Edge Labs. Possibly some taurine also, since i've read you can get bad back pumps and it should help with that. But please let me know if i need anything else during the cycle.

Now for PCT... here is where things got me a little confused. i know i need a SERM, which could be Clomid or Nolvadex right? But I read some places that people take both and some one or the other. Here is what I was thinking of doing for PCT:

1. Nolvadex (4-week): 40/40/20/20
2. Clomid (4-week): 100mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
3. Restore by ALRI - to control cortisol
4. Jungle Warfare by ALRI - to boost natural test
5. Vassive NO + Vassive C5 - Creatine

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Oh, and maybe if someone has a reliable place i could get the nolvadex and clomid for a good price too... Thanx!
 
mathis50262

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Looks like you have done your research my friend, good job. I have no experiance with either product, but I would run Spawn for your first cycle. Or even epi, or pplex, or hdrol. That is a super clone, and that IMO is a little harsh for a first cycle. Your PCT looks solid. Although I cannot advise on the Nolva, Clomid stack dosing, as I just run Nolva, although I hear good results with the stack. If someone doesn't chime in you can search the dosing on here, it's all around. Make sure to pre load on your cycle assist for at least one week. Make sure you have a solid diet!

Good luck!
 

Drjuicebox06

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run a solo epi cycle. you will get good gains. i ran havoc 30/30/30/40 and i gained 18lb. they're like the same thing. ummm i would run a little higher now if i could do it all over again. next cycle i'm running straight 50.
 
mathis50262

mathis50262

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run a solo epi cycle. you will get good gains. i ran havoc 30/30/30/40 and i gained 18lb. they're like the same thing. ummm i would run a little higher now if i could do it all over again. next cycle i'm running straight 50.
Agreed
 

jeffwill82

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yeah, i also looked at havoc and epistane by IBE. this might be a better bet for my first go round than the other two products which are stacked. would my PCT need to be any different if i just did havoc solo?

should i also continue to use something like the cycle assist during my PCT?
 
jay21

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IMO epi = extremely weak if ur gonna run that just get some mass fx. instead. 19nor mdrol and PP r all good
 
lennoxchi

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hey guys, i've been reading a lot but there is so much information and so many products out there it can be overwhelming at times, so i thought i would ask some specific questions here.

i'm 28 yrs old, currently around 180 lbs and would like to be around 190 but stay lean and lose some fat in the process. any recommendations on what i could take? two products i was looking at were spawn by myogenix, and ultra ripped stack by APS.

Here are the ingredients for Spawn, which i read is a tren + epi stack:
Estra-4,9-diene-3,17-dione 30mg
2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyletioallocholanol 8mg

Here is the Ultra Ripped Stack ingredients, which i think is superdrol and tren:
19-Norandrosta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione 30mg
2a-17a-dimethyl-5a-androst-3-one-17b-ol 10mg

I've heard good things about Spawn, but it is a little expensive. Let me know if there is anything else i should take a look at.

Since this is my first cycle, safety is a big concern and i want to make sure i do everything right. During the cycle, i was planning on taking Cycle Assist by Competitive Edge Labs. Possibly some taurine also, since i've read you can get bad back pumps and it should help with that. But please let me know if i need anything else during the cycle.

Now for PCT... here is where things got me a little confused. i know i need a SERM, which could be Clomid or Nolvadex right? But I read some places that people take both and some one or the other. Here is what I was thinking of doing for PCT:

1. Nolvadex (4-week): 40/40/20/20
2. Clomid (4-week): 100mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
3. Restore by ALRI - to control cortisol
4. Jungle Warfare by ALRI - to boost natural test
5. Vassive NO + Vassive C5 - Creatine

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Oh, and maybe if someone has a reliable place i could get the nolvadex and clomid for a good price too... Thanx!
you've done your research alright. a bit of what i'm reading is off though, most of which is in your PCT. 1st off J.W., DO NOT TAKE. it is a ph. one should never take a ph to boost natural test. as far as your SERMS goes, nolva and clomid together? you could do that but not at those dosages. nolva is more toxic to your liver than most ph/ps. nolva 30/20/10/10 clomid 50/50/50/50.....even that might be too much for a first cycle. i would stick with one or the other. if you going with clomid go ahead with 100 for 5 days then 50 to finish out the remainder of thew 4 weeks, for that matter how long are you running either of those compounds?
 
EasyEJL

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another critical piece missing here is bloodwork. get some bloodwork BEFORE the cycle even if you don't think you'll have enough $$ to be able to get blood done again after PCT. Without having any idea of what your baseline is before starting anything, you'll never know later if you get odd symptoms (like say low libido for months after the cycle) and then get blood tested what you were before

Particularly total testosterone, LH, FSH, IGF, SHBG, Free testosterone, E2
 
lennoxchi

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another critical piece missing here is bloodwork. get some bloodwork BEFORE the cycle even if you don't think you'll have enough $$ to be able to get blood done again after PCT. Without having any idea of what your baseline is before starting anything, you'll never know later if you get odd symptoms (like say low libido for months after the cycle) and then get blood tested what you were before

Particularly total testosterone, LH, FSH, IGF, SHBG, Free testosterone, E2
that's the double truth.........ruth! good advise
 

jeffwill82

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i will not do jungle warfare then for pct to boost natural test. what do u think about Myogenix Hardcore Test for that purpose? Here is the ingredient list:

1200mg
Bulgarian Tribulus Terrestris (20% Protodioscin, 80% Steroidal Saponins)
Testofen (50% Fenusides)
Eurycoma Longfolia Jack 100:1
Siberian Rhodiola Rosea (5% Rosavins, 3% Salidrosides)
Rhaponticum Carthamoides (5% Ecdysterones, 1.5% Hydroxyecdysone)
4-OHA (Formestane) 75mg

any other good products for that?

so would i be good with just clomid then and no nolva? or would you recommend nolva and no clomid?

what about products like IForce Reversitol? i've read that this can be taken as PCT for most OTC oral prohormones without using a SERM. i'm guessing that wouldn't be recommended though.

I'm in no rush, so i just wanna make sure i have a good and SAFE plan together. i wanted to start the cycle in May. i'm still on the fence whether to do the ultra ripped stack or just havoc. both would be a 4 week cycle, so i would need to do PCT for 4 weeks also correct?
 
james1

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IMO epi = extremely weak if ur gonna run that just get some mass fx. instead. 19nor mdrol and PP r all good
thats some pretty sh1tty advice. Did you not read "First cycle" by any chance?
mdrol can wreck your liver values, and if your not experienced that could be a serious health problem, and PP can have some really nasty sides with some people. So why would someone who doesn't have any experience mess with something that can have nasty sides. and if you think epi/havoc is a waste of money and he should just get mass fx your an idiot:crackhead:
 
lennoxchi

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i will not do jungle warfare then for pct to boost natural test. what do u think about Myogenix Hardcore Test for that purpose? Here is the ingredient list:

1200mg
Bulgarian Tribulus Terrestris (20% Protodioscin, 80% Steroidal Saponins)
Testofen (50% Fenusides)
Eurycoma Longfolia Jack 100:1
Siberian Rhodiola Rosea (5% Rosavins, 3% Salidrosides)
Rhaponticum Carthamoides (5% Ecdysterones, 1.5% Hydroxyecdysone)
4-OHA (Formestane) 75mg

any other good products for that?

so would i be good with just clomid then and no nolva? or would you recommend nolva and no clomid?

what about products like IForce Reversitol? i've read that this can be taken as PCT for most OTC oral prohormones without using a SERM. i'm guessing that wouldn't be recommended though.

I'm in no rush, so i just wanna make sure i have a good and SAFE plan together. i wanted to start the cycle in May. i'm still on the fence whether to do the ultra ripped stack or just havoc. both would be a 4 week cycle, so i would need to do PCT for 4 weeks also correct?
i've never taken Myogenix Hardcore Test, but the listing of ingredents looks solid. you should have no problem with using that. clomid or nolva? your choice. my body reacts fine to both, some people report different sides with both of those SERMS. the thing of it is, you will not know how you react to either until you take one or the other.......sucks, but it's a crap shoot. kind of like asprin. i take asprin and my headache goes away, you take asprin and you break out in hives.......hypotheticly speaking of course. Reversitol? another product with a good ingredent listing. you could use an OTC PCT product (reversitiol or myogenix) but i will strongly advise you to have a SERM on hand. even if you don't use it for whatever cycle you run this time, you'll have it for a future one, it's will not go to waste. and lastly, yes PCT usually lasts around the same length as your cycle. for a milder cycle (hdrol,epi or trenadrol) you could get away with 3 weeks, if you're running those at a low dose. but for mdrol, PP you will most likly need to go the full length of how ever long your cycle is. also to follow up with the suggestion from earlier......get blood work done. before your cycle and after. just tell your doc to give you the print out of the results.
 

jeffwill82

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Hey guys, as I continue to plan I was looking at Competitive Edge Labs products and thought I would get some information directly from them. I emailed the company telling them it was my first cycle, safety was very important, what I was looking to acheive and asked which of their products they would recommend and what their advice would be on PCT for those products. Here is the response.

E-Stane (basically Havoc) or H-Drol would be good cycle options for you based upon the
information you provided. We suggest using the Cycle Assist during your cycle, and most people preload on it a week to two weeks before the cycle. For PCT, my personal PCT is Inhibit-E and Liver Assist by SNS along with PCT Assist by us.

I am by no means trying to blast the company, but just looking for the best advice possible. What do you guys think? I asked the question whether I need a SERM like Nolva or Clomid for this cycle and he mentions nothing about it.

Maybe I go with something similar to his lineup and then have Nolva on hand just in case like some other people have mentioned.
 
james1

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well with h-drol you will not need a serm. Having it on hand is always nice, as you will use it eventually. The cycle assist is a nice product, and will help with keeping your bp at a nice value. I would highly recommend you run either cycle assist or cycle support by AI, with any PH you use. H-drol is a great choice for a first cycle, but many say they regret not upping the dose, even on their first cycle. So If you run h-drol think about trying 50/50/75/75/75 or something along those lines. If your trying to stay extremely cautious then just run h-drol at 50/50/50/50 and go from there. The E-stane is a epi clone just like havoc, its all the same thing. E-stane on the other hand can sometimes require a serm, depending on the person, and the dosage. You can take any steroid you want and not use a serm, you will still recover, it will just be a slow painful recovery, and you will loose a good amount of your gains. With that being said h-drol you will be absolutely fine without a serm. E-stane can sometimes suppress people enough where a serm would be optimal, but many many people take E-stane and run an OTC pct without a serm and love the cycle, and recover perfectly fine. But in the case of E-stane I would keep it on hand and try to get bloodwork at end of cycle to see if a SERM is necessary. They are both great beginner cycles, but h-drol is a little milder then E-stane, and you won't get quite the same gains. But everyone gets good gains on their first cycle so maybe the milder route is the best route, completely up too you. As for pct, you will want a AI to regulate estrogen, and a natural test booster. The liver support product is up to you and if you get blood work, you will know if its needed. For the AI's, there are many great choices, you can use ATD, 6-Bromoandrostenedione, topical formestane, formex by IBE, 6-oxo. For test boosters, pct cycle assist by CEL is good, but there are many options for you too look at like Diesel test Hardcore, blue-up, stoked, Drive, the list goes on and on. You can also look at the recover stack by Primordial Performance, people seem to like the results. the only difference between the h-drol pct and E-stane pct, is that for E-stane a low dosed serm may be optimal. And the reason CEL didn't mention SERM in their response is because, serms are research chemicals and are not legally sold for human consumption, so they cannot recommend that to you. think thats about it, just next time you ask about a SERM say its for your lab rat :)
 
lennoxchi

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Hey guys, as I continue to plan I was looking at Competitive Edge Labs products and thought I would get some information directly from them. I emailed the company telling them it was my first cycle, safety was very important, what I was looking to acheive and asked which of their products they would recommend and what their advice would be on PCT for those products. Here is the response.

E-Stane (basically Havoc) or H-Drol would be good cycle options for you based upon the
information you provided. We suggest using the Cycle Assist during your cycle, and most people preload on it a week to two weeks before the cycle. For PCT, my personal PCT is Inhibit-E and Liver Assist by SNS along with PCT Assist by us.

I am by no means trying to blast the company, but just looking for the best advice possible. What do you guys think? I asked the question whether I need a SERM like Nolva or Clomid for this cycle and he mentions nothing about it.

Maybe I go with something similar to his lineup and then have Nolva on hand just in case like some other people have mentioned.
he can't talk about SERMS, he works for a legit company and SERMS are illegal unless you have a script. now let me say this....a SERM is not mandatory, EVER. the reason to use a SERM is to bring your natural test levels back ASAP to help against GYNO and things of that nature. now certain compounds are "harsher" than others. SD,PP vs. Hdrol,EPI. Some people do not use a SERM and go the OTC route when they run "milder" compounds some go OTC when they run even harsher things too. i always recommend a SERM be on hand just in case. the last thing i need is to see "you won't need one". how the hell would i know? i do not know how your body will react to specific compounds, and if you've never taken them, neither do you, hence.....suggesting having it on hand. do you really want to be in a position where you need a SERM, GYNO is developing, and you have to wait....even a day to get a SERM? i know i don't
 

jeffwill82

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ok guys - i've been doing some more reading and thinking. i'm now leaning towards the epistane route. might go with CEL's E-Stane or Havoc... either way will do 20/30/30/40 along with CEL's Cycle Assist during.

now back to the PCT issue. I was looking at I-Force's Reversitol because it seems to have a lot of the bases covered. but what else would i need to add besides that? seems like that product is an AI and test booster... so would i still need something like liver assist, as well as something to control cortisol?? i just don't want to overlap or overdue it if that product already has something else covered.

i still will probably have a SERM on hand, just in case. but what sides would i be looking for to know if i need to do the SERM? just gyno, or anything else? and is nolvadex and/or clomid oral?

something else i haven't mentioned, but i am now in my last week of using LG's "Trifecta Stack"... then will do 2 weeks of their formadrol which is all they say you need for "pct". then i was planning on doing another 2 weeks off of nothing at all... then starting the epi. is this enough time? i really haven't noticed anything from the trifecta stack.

thanx again!
 

jeffwill82

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still wondering if someone could help me with whether i'd need anything else besides nolvadex and reversitol in PCT.

secondly... as i mentioned i'm finishing up LG's trifecta stack, but didn't notice anything at all really... so must not be that strong. i now have a trip/vacation coming up and wanted to start the epi even a little sooner. if i finish up the trifecta this week, then take the 2 wk formadrol as they recommend... would i be able to start the epi the week after that? only asking cuz i would really like to fit this in before my trip and wouldn't want to waste it on something like a 2 week cycle.

thanx!
 
EasyEJL

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well, this isn't your first cycle anymore as the trifecta stack was :)

no, that isn't enough time off, unless you've done blood tests. General rule of thumb is time off = time of cycle + time of PCT.
 

jeffwill82

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i guess i just didn't think the trifecta was considered in the same category for some reason. wish i would've seen more from my first now or done something different all together. prolly just have to wait till after the trip now... ahh well.

so would it be safe to continue to take a natural booster in my time between cycles after PCT... like something with trib, longjack, fenugreek, etc??
 

jeffwill82

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ok, another question. this time about trying to lose some fat after my trifecta "cycle". would i be able to take something like 7 keto? i read that it is a dhea derivitive but doesn't convert to test or estrogen and is supposed to reduce fat. would that even help me to cut up or would something else like lean fx or another cortisol blocker work?

i was planning on taking some cla, fish oil, maybe some l-carnitine and POSSIBLY lipo-6 but wondered if the 7 keto and/or cort blocker would be helpful or just a waste of money.

sorry for all the questions, but thanx for the help!
 
EasyEJL

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the 7keto or lean fx would work, but keep in mind 11-oxo is another prohormone, and can be suppressive. So you don't want to use that one in PCT
 

jeffwill82

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hey guys - bringing this one back from the dead since i'm about to go for it after some time off the trifecta stak. my plan is:

Cycle:
- E-Stane (by C.E.L.) - 20/30/30/40
- Cycle Assist (by C.E.L.)

PCT:
- Blue Up (by Controlled Labs)
- Inhibit E (by SNS)
- Liver Assist (by SNS)
* (Nolvadex on hand just in case)

Just wanted your opinions on this and whether i have all the bases covered.

Was wondering if Blue Up was a strong enough test booster? Also wanted to try and keep cost down so i was wondering if there was something that would work for both a test booster and AI in one?

Thanks for the help!
 

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