minimal gains from testosterone, anyone else??
- 03-11-2009, 11:58 PM
minimal gains from testosterone, anyone else??
So, i've been around here for a little while playing with orals and I've been mostly disappointed with the results. Most of them just don't seem to work on me; I ran Hdrol and Epi cycles with exactly 0 gains. Phera Plex works but not as well as it does on most people. Superdrol works very well for me and it's alone in that regard.
So I gave injectable testosterone a try and that's what I've been logging, I'm on day 92. It started out as Test Enanthate with a Superdrol kickstart, but after the Superdrol i lost a lot of gains and it felt like the enanthate was doing nothing. We decided it was probably bunk or underdosed and i got a bunch of test propionate.
I'm now on day 28 of test propionate and i've been running it at 100mg ed. It's from a different source than the enanthate and the chance of it being bunk is very low, especially considering that my libido has been raging since about day 3 of using it.
However, I've had serious problems making gains. In the 4 weeks on test prop i've put on about 3 pounds but i had to increase my calories to get there. I've summarized my strength gains from 1 month of test prop in my log:
Here is a summary of the strength gains from the last month while on Test prop
shoulders (press): +0
Most exercises i've been unable to gain even a couple reps of strength. My arms are up, i figure they are my genetic strong point and grow well. My squats are up too. Other lifts are just absolutely stagnant. The exact same training and diet produced VASTLY different results on Superdrol.
Since i've been logging the cycle carefully, i was able to produce some graphs to show my gains on Superdrol and on test prop for comparison. The graphs show how i was able to gain tremendous amounts of weight while on Superdrol while i've been stymied for weeks on test prop.
I also did a strength study using my incline bench, which increased rapidly on Superdrol. In doing this study, i found out that my incline bench actually decreased while on the prop. It may have just been a very bad day but still, it's much lower than when i was on Superdrol. My incline was so bad that I transitioned to flat bench, which is currently no higher than when i started the cycle, meaning i've lost about all the strength gains from Superdrol.
So here's the question, has this happened to anyone else?
I seem to recall there being a poster here who said that test was like "water" to him, meaning it did not affect him properly, while other steroids did. Well, wtf is wrong with us... And don't tell me the prop is bunk because it clearly isn't, and don't tell me that i don't know how to eat because I clearly do.
- 03-12-2009, 12:03 AM
03-12-2009, 12:06 AM
that frikken stinks. i don't know what to say other than add some tren to the mix.
is it possible that your natural test levels are so high, you need to double dose the test to see gains?
03-12-2009, 12:07 AM
03-12-2009, 12:16 AM
I should also say that I'm already running double dose. Most people say for your first prop cycle, do 100mg EOD. I am doing it ED.
This should be comparable to enanthate @ 800mg every week.
on average though:
approx 350g protein, 350g carbs, 135g fat (i cook with lots of olive oil :P) = 4015 cal/day
it's a lot for me, it's making me feel kinda crappy, actually one of the main reasons I'm stopping this "bulk." Tired of being full and bloated all the time.
Libido is the main side i'm feeling. I've never felt any aggression on any steroid i've tried ever. Oily skin, a tiny bit... pretty negligible in terms of my acne. Increased sweating, no. I'm very sweaty by nature and thankfully haven't gotten any sweatier. I am sure the libido is being chemically enhanced though, i can *do things* I couldn't do before .
Charge, RE the receptor affinity... Most oral steroids do not seem to work on me. I think that counts. My favorite story is Epistane. I ran 30/30/40/40 on a bulking diet. Gained about 5 pounds which seemed like fat/water from eating more (and I had primed). Gained 0 strength, literally nothing. I started taking Superdrol, in 10 days I gained about 12 pounds (on the same diet) and after a month my bench had gone up over 50 pounds. The Epistane was working just like the prop, i had great muscular hardness and improved vascularity, I had headaches from the blood pressure (very minor but still). I couldn't gain a pound or add a pound to my bench. With Superdrol my bench was going up 10+ pounds week after week after week. I was gaining a pound a day. It was a night and day difference.
Epi had anabolic effects and no gains. Superdrol produced anabolic effects and HUGE gains.
Testosterone is producing anabolic effects, and gains so small I could call them natural gains.
Honestly it does look like a receptor problem to me, because how else could I take Epistane for a month and get the hardness, get the pumps, get the vascularity and the blood pressure, but not be able to gain any LBM or 1 ****ing rep of strength. HOW.
03-12-2009, 01:25 AM
03-12-2009, 02:02 AM
haha. Lucky in some respects and not so lucky with others. I feel sick eating at 4k cals. 3k is perfect, I had been running 3K for months before I started and I was nice and lean in my precycle pics and holding steady at 220.
It's not all that great though. Years back I got fat as hell eating about 2K calories a day because I didn't exercise. My body usually loves to gain weight. The gains I made when I started weightlifting were extremely rapid, got stretch marks like crazy and I didn't even know about eating protein shakes and stuf. In the last year it has all slowed down a whole lot, so I've been playing with steroids and not getting anything out of it...
The orals just don't seem to work. And I can't get myself to keep enough of the gains on Superdrol. I keep some LBM each time but lose just about all the strength. The goal of this injectable cycle was to make insane gains on Superdrol and then be able to build on them and keep them. And that didn't work because Test just doesn't seem to have enough muscle building activity going on.
It's kinda funny, but I'm not much bigger or stronger than when i was natural. I'm leaner and a bit denser, but I built most of this muscle in the first ~2.5 years of lifting. I guess that's the only reason why I can accept "leaving this game" and going back to natural. But it's disappointing for me because i had big plans. I wanted to end this cycle at 245 and 10% bodyfat. Say 240 after PCT. Then the Summer Tren recomp would put me at 240 and 8%. I had this big plans. And they're all falling apart... Now the only next step I have is getting lean again. I don't know if i'll ever be able to bulk again, if i can't do it taking 100mg of test everyday then it's going to be a pain in the ass doing it natty... Just means I'd have to eat ridiculous amounts of food, get fat and nasty and feel bad, and go through a long and painful cutting phase where I'm apt to lose a lot of LBM. Dammit. Dammmmmit all.
03-12-2009, 02:37 AM
if im reading this right.. you said your taking 100mg of prop ed. thats 700mg's of test a week which is a solid dose ....you should def be seeing gains man prop is a short ester and kicks in pretty fast....the only thing that could be a possibility is the superdrol worked so well and may have already "maxed" out your gains for this cycle, because i always get to a point where i cant gain anymore i just stay where im at in the final weeks of a cycle....idk if that makes sense but just my 2 cents
03-12-2009, 07:20 AM
This is probably not the answer you want to hear. You gained 25 pounds in 20 days. How much more did you expect test to add on to that? In the literature, controlled experiments with AAS result in a maximum gain of lean mass (i.e. actual muscle protein) of about 1 pound per week. Now, knowing the limitations of controlled experiments and the fact that they are not necessarily weightlifters with optimal nutrition I would guess that you might be able to double that. So, two pounds per week of lean mass gains is about the max than one should expect out of AAS. You gained four times that amount. What do you suspect that additional weight is? I think this is also pretty good evidence that superdrol is a much more potent loader of water than test.
You are likely adding lean mass, just in the context of shedding water post superdrol so on the scale it looks like a loss.
03-12-2009, 08:32 AM
I have not personally ever worked with someone (and thats a bunch of people) who didnt get results off testosterone. Now, I would certainly say some responded better than others obviously, but each one made fairly significant gains.
It is possible that for whatever reason you dont respond favorably.
You did mention that you started gaining weight when you switched esters, but you prefaced that by saying "but I had to increase my calories to get there". Anabolics and androgens do require an increase in macronutrient intake. The use alone often isnt going to produce results. By looking at your avatar, its seems like you're in good condition, and lean. Is it more likely that you just dont eat enough? Are you so fanatical about your food, that you're not ALLOWING yourself enough to grow?
03-12-2009, 09:52 AM
To add a couple of more points here in a sort of random fashion, I never really saw myself nor understood the rationale for people getting big strength gains off superdrol. It chemically just isn't there to do that. Yes strength gains come, but not normally huge leaps.
Also, if you had a receptor issue, or were "testosterone resistant" then you never would have made natural gains either. The slight possibility is that your body is having some sort of metabolism issue with stripping the ester, so I suppose you could try a test base suspension instead to get around that.
With 25lbs of gains in 3 weeks on superdrol, its pretty obvious it can't have all been lean mass, so i'm with Seth on that one - you are seeing a loss of some water + glycogen retention now while adding lean mass. How many guys do you hear talking about more than 25 lean pounds of gain even on a 12 week 800mg/week test-e regimen? We'd have a lot more ronnie colemans and jay cutlers running around if it was that easy.
Another possibility is that the fast gains in mass + strength from the superdrol also were accompanied by a bit of liver damage and some light tendon damage, and you just aren't feeling like you can add the next rep or go up in weight from that. Your press went up 20% in under 4 weeks... and the liver harm is just putting a damper on your overall metabolism + protein/carb usage.
plus if I gained 25lbs from start of cycle to midpoint, i'd be expecting to have to raise my cals at least another 750 cals a day to continue gains
03-12-2009, 11:13 AM
Now those are quality answers! Reps for all. Interesting case and I am leaning toward Seth and Easy. I guess I didn't catch that 25lb blow up. If you are maintaining the lifts you made from SD and have increased cals nicely I could see exactly what they are alluding to occuring. You can only gain so much on one cycle.
And yes the affinity problem I was referring to would be test and you would not make much gains naturally with a problem in that area. A lot of the orals are based on DHT base molecules so may have something to do with that, just brain storming
03-12-2009, 11:47 AM
I estimated starting bodyfat at 10% and starting weight at 220 pounds. Post Superdrol (after water weight dropoff) I estimated bodyfat at 13% and weight was 235 pounds. This corresponds to an LBM increase of 6.5 pounds and a fat mass increase of 8.5 pounds.
Since then I've been more or less flatlined at 235-238 while on test prop. I am no longer losing water weight because my bodyfat looks exactly the same (13%). In fact I may have gained a little fat in the last few weeks from eating so much. I am not getting leaner while putting on LBM. That would result in an increase in strength, which is not really happening.
Which begs another point, if i were not eating enough food to gain weight on test, shouldn't my strength still increase, because I am eating 1k calories over my maintenance and lifting for strength while on a lot of test.
I am no longer as lean as in my avatar. My eating on this cycle has caused a significant increase in my bodyfat.
I can show you before and after Superdrol (220 pounds and 10% and then 240 pounds and 13%).
So i did put on a lot of fat and I've been eating enough to keep myself at 13% bodyfat while not gaining a significant amount of weight. If calories were insufficient, I should be recomping. Instead I am eating a lot (for me) working hard and I am basically stagnant.
The weight gain on Superdrol is different. If i start my day at 235 and eat until i'm 240 and go to sleep, i'll wake up and be 236-237. Yes it is loading a lot of carbs and water, but undeniably some of it is LBM. With testosterone propionate, I've been eating up the same amount, and losing all of it every time. Same weight every morning. Piss it out, crap it out, it just doesn't stick to my body.
So my question, how much more do i have to eat on test prop vs. on Superdrol? On Superdrol my diet produced gains that were probably TOO FAST because the water and fat gain were significant. I've tried eating more than when I was on Superdrol and I still couldn't get any weight to stick.
I think your last comments are unlikely. It's been almost 8 weeks since I stopped Superdrol. If my liver were so damaged to the point of negating gains after 8 weeks, how damaged was it 8 weeks ago, and why was I gaining just GREAT back then...
That's certainly not the case. I've ran Superdrol before and got the same kind of insane strength gains.
The tendon/ligament issue is interesting because I had joint pain at the end of Superdrol. But once I stopped it went away and I had weeks on test to make gains. I just haven't been able to do it!
There's got to be something wrong if i'm on 700mg ew of prop for 4 weeks while eating 1K above maintenance and my incline press goes down 2 reps. Then the following weeks I transition back to flat bench and find i've lost all my Superdrol strength and my flat bench is back to essentially PRE-CYCLE strength, even though I am over 15 pounds heavier.
I concede that my body can gain weight, it's just a matter of eating enough. What I don't understand is that if eating X results in rapid gains of strength and weight on Superdrol, why does eating X result in no gains on testosterone? Come on even if i were taking test and not trying to bulk, just eating 4K calories and lifting in the 4-8 rep range for strength, shouldn't my shoulder press increase by 5 pounds? 10 pounds? A few reps... Shouldn't my rows increase at least a few pounds, shouldn't my bench increase?
How can I eat 1k over maintenance while on a high dose of testosterone for 1 month and not gain 1 rep of strength on bench, while the same conditions resulted in +45 pounds of strength when i was taking Superdrol.
03-12-2009, 11:55 AM
03-12-2009, 11:59 AM
[email protected]% = 198 lbm
[email protected]% = 206.19 lbm
(206.19/198)*3000 = 3124
4000-3124 = 876 cal over maintenance
everything here is absolutely ignoring my experience with Epistane. A normally potent anabolic that gave me the known anabolic side effects, while it absolutely did not expedite gains to ANY extent, zero gains. How is that possible, and how could this relate to other anabolics.
03-12-2009, 12:15 PM
Are you doing cardio too on top of your strength workout? Cause 3000 does seem a little on the low side for maintenance at your size.
not ignoring the epi, it actually fits into the "not enough nutrients in". you still get sides regardless of your food intake. and things like a pump, vascularity, etc are independent of food intake.
I'm i'm not accusing you of not eating enough either just throwing out what ideas I can think of, and fit what i've seen in others.
I still would be really interested to see what would happen with test base for you.
03-12-2009, 06:04 PM
Follow me here. Those 25 lbs you gained in the first three weeks, about 19 pounds of that were water, and about 6 pounds lean mass. Since then, you have probably gained another 5 to 8 pounds of lean mass and dropped 8 pounds of water resulting in 11-14 pounds of lean mass gains and 3 to 6 pounds of water. These are just guesses but seems reasonable.
03-12-2009, 07:31 PM
When I was maintaining at 220 on 3K calories i was doing cardio more often. I have a slow metabolism.
Eating more will cause weight gain for me, it has to, but how much do I have to eat for that to happen... considering that my eating has already caused fat gain, well I don't want to gain anymore. I thought with steroids you could do things like
1) eat maintenance and recomp
2) gain weight slowly while getting slightly leaner
3) gain a lot of weight while getting fatter
SD caused #3 but on Test I am not recomping. I am not getting leaner. I'm about to get into this with Seth.
I don't know any biochem, i don't know how the body cleaves the ester or why my body would be bad at it. But i really DO feel like this relates to the Epi experience, where sides are present but gains are not. To me this sounds like the anabolic/androgenic activity is incomplete.
03-12-2009, 07:58 PM
You have me at 245 +(5-8) pounds LBM and -8 pounds of water. That would put me at 242-245 right now. I am closer to 236.
After getting off Superdrol i quickly stabilized at 235. Since then I have stayed within a few pounds of 235 and my bodyfat HAS NOT CHANGED. I have not gained significant amounts of LBM in the ~8 weeks since Superdrol, and I have not lost significant amounts of fat. My body composition has not changed to measurable degree since getting on test prop.
I would love to have gained 5-8 pounds of LEAN MASS on test in the last few weeks but that certainly hasn't happened.
Again: After Superdrol I stabilized at 235 and 13%. Now I am the same weight and the same bodyfat.
So, while lifting hard and heavy, injecting 100mg of prop ED, and eating well over maintenance, I have not gained muscle or weight beyond what I would expect naturally, which is close to nothing.
03-12-2009, 08:03 PM
I am not sure what you are expecting. You did a four week cycle of epi, what did you think you would gain in 4 weeks?
How are you measuring body water content?
I think your confusion and disappointment stems from a lack of understanding of the process of lean mass hypertrophy (that's not meant as an insult -- you said yourself you don't know any biochemistry). Water is a component of lean mass so you could be exchanging water for lean tissue and not be seeing any difference with calipers or on the scale.
03-12-2009, 08:18 PM
I expected gains from 4 weeks of Epi. Very few people here run it for 4 weeks without gaining 1 rep of strength! It was impossible to increase my strength, and then I added in Superdrol and my strength exploded. The Epi didn't work. That's my point.
Measuring my bodyfat visually like I've always done. You can see my pictures. I call those 10% and 13%. You can discuss this with me.
But with the waterweight vs. lbm you are not getting me. I am not getting leaner. I can tell these things! If anything I look fatter, because in the last 2 weeks I tried particularly hard to gain weight and usually exceeded my target Cals. I am not gaining LBM because then I would be stronger.
I don't know how you could suggest that I'm simultaneously gaining LBM and losing bodyfat when my strength is stagnant and the visual changes are NIL, you will have to trust me until I can get new pictures up that show that I look much ****tier than I did pre-cycle.
03-12-2009, 08:22 PM
Most people who run Epi for 4 weeks at 30/30/40/40 gain a significant amount of strength and weight, sometimes while getting leaner. I've read enough logs... I would say (and most readers should agree) that +8 pounds with increased definition while adding 20 pounds to major lifts is an acceptable average for such a cycle.
My excess calories on Epistane didn't go to building any muscle, and i didn't get stronger... Even if i were eating maintenance it should make me stronger. My eating resulted ONLY in fat gains. I started taking Superdrol during that cycle and I immediately made gains at a rate I had never experienced before in my life.
I have shared this story countless times and I've never heard an explanation.
03-12-2009, 08:23 PM
I never said you were losing body fat -- I dsaid you were losing water. In this case, intramuscular water, not subcutaneous water. Superdrol loads a lot of water. You do not get the "bloated" look from superdrol because it does not aromatize but it still loads water into the muscle. Epi does not load water and therefore you are unlikely to see large amounts of weight gained -- four weeks I would expect a max of 5 pounds of legitimate weight gain -- if that.
If this is not clear, let me know and we can hash it out. I think you probably had a little bit of water spillover after stopping the superdrol which is why you look a little "fatter" now.
03-12-2009, 08:25 PM
03-12-2009, 08:32 PM
One other thing I just noticed. If your numbers are accurate then 220 at 10% means you had 198 pounds of lean mass. At 240 and 13% that means you had 208.8 pounds of lean mass. If you dropped down to 235 at 13% that means you have 204.5 pounds of lean mass. which means you are up 6.5 pounds of lean mass.
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