The Official PCT of 2009 - AnabolicMinds.com

The Official PCT of 2009

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    Exclamation The Official PCT of 2009


    Dear Member,

    I'm proud to present the official Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) of 2009.

    If you're considering using pro-hormones, or even illegal anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS’s), then you should read this article before going any further.

    Some information given here will be new, some will be old, but all of it is based off successful real-world protocols developed from the counseling of hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders worldwide. The information presented here will allow you to come clean from a cycle while keeping your gains, surging your sex drive, and making you feel healthier than you ever have before.

    Before we get into the details I want to illustrate several major problems with the average PCT protocol -



    Mega-Dosing of SERMs


    There is no doubt that SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) such as Clomid and Nolvadex can stimulate testosterone production.

    Unfortunately, these drugs can have a host of side effects including -

    • Liver Toxicity
    • Reduced Libido
    • Ocular Toxicity/Blurred Vision
    • Emotional Side-effects

    Clomid in particular can lead to emotional side-effects and cause a man to feel like a weeping and emotionally distressed pregnant woman. This is because Clomid acts like an estrogen in certain parts of the brain and causes serious emotional episodes. To read more about the side-effects of SERM's, read this article.

    In the “Perfect PCT” section below we will discuss the proper use of SERM’s for PCT.



    Over Use of Anti-Estrogens


    Aromatase inhibitors (AI's) such as Arimidex, Aromasin, and Formestane are powerful tools for reducing estrogen conversion from heavily aromatizing drugs such as Testosterone or Dianabol. While these drugs are sometimes useful during cycle, these drugs are often counter-productive to use during PCT.

    More specifically, it is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle, especially if the cycle consisted primarily of non-aromatizing (non-estrogenic) AAS's or pro-hormones. Additionally, if one uses proper anti-estrogen's during a cycle with aromatizing AAS's then estrogen will not be elevated in this scenario either. Therefore, assuming proper AI's are used during cycle, I can only recommend an AI be used for PCT if hCG is also used.

    Using AI's when they are not needed can lead to extremely low estrogen, which can cause the following side-effects -

    • Lower Sex Drive / Erectile dysfunction
    • Joint Pain
    • Lower HDL levels
    • Increased Risk of Heart Disease

    Ultimately, this hurts your long and short term recovery and does not benefit you. Don't forget, normal levels of estrogen are necessary to support libido, muscle recovery, and testicular function.



    Improper use of hCG


    Using hCG after the cycle is the least effective way to use hCG.

    You see, when you're on steroids, your brain cuts off the signal to the testes, and your testes stop producing testosterone. Once this happens, your testes shutdown, start to shrink, and become unresponsive to stimulation from the brain (essentially, the testes become desensitized). This is the reason why alot of guys never recover from a steroid cycle even after using tons of hCG and SERM's -- because the testes have stayed inactive for too long and have become permanently desensitized.

    Here are a list of problems you can have from waiting untill the end of a cycle to use hCG -

    • High Possibility of Permanent Testicular Damage/Desensitization
    • Higher hCG Dose Requirement
    • Higher Conversion Rate to Estrogen

    For a fast and quick recovery of testosterone production after a cycle, you must avoid the long-periods of suppression. Once your testes go unused for too long, it is virtually impossible to get them to come back full strength, no matter how much hCG you take. For more detailed information on testicular degeneration of testicular function during a steroid cycle, see this article.



    hCG during cycle - The Proper use of hCG


    For any cycle longer than 6 weeks, you need to get your hands on some hCG and use it during the cycle. A small dose will keep the testes running as normal during cycle, so they can jump back on track when the cycle is over. Plus, when you use hCG during the cycle, you don't need to use it for PCT.

    On-cycle hCG forces your testes to continue producing testosterone as they normally would. The trick with on-cycle hCG use is to avoid using too much, too frequently (which can also desensitize your testes the same as not using any at all!). It’s important to use just enough to stimulate the testes to produce the same amount of testosterone they would normally.

    Check out the simple hCG dosing guidelines -


    * Every 4 days = Shoot on Monday, then on Friday, then on Tuesday, ect.

    † AI - Aromatase Inhibitor (While taking 1000iu shots, I recommend 10mg/ED of Aromasin or .5mg/ED Arimidex to keep estrogen in control. Legal alternatives include Formasol and Arom-X which are also effective aromatase inhibitors. Discontinue AI 4 days after last hCG shot.)

    If you are doing the on-cycle hCG protocol it is important to discontinue hCG 2 weeks prior to AAS clearance. Therefore, when you officially start PCT you will be clean of all AAS's and will be 14 days from your last hCG shot. This allows your testes to become re-sensitized to the body's LH signal from the brain, making for a quick recovery of natural testosterone production as soon as the steroids and hCG clear the system. This is another reason why on-cycle hCG is superior, because it allows you to start recovering as soon as PCT begins.

    If you aren't doing hCG on-cycle, then use hCG according to the "last 2 weeks or after the cycle" guidelines, and start it 4-5 weeks before the AAS's are expected to clear the system (Or as soon as possible if you are already past this point).

    For AAS clearance times, see the table in the last section.



    The Perfect PCT

    Since SERMs can help stimulate testosterone production, we will allow them in our PCT, but at a much lower dose that what most “forum gurus” suggest. The goal with SERM’s is to dose them for maximum benefit with minimal side-effects, and only use them when they are necessary. If your cycle is longer than 6 weeks, and you are not running hCG during the cycle, then I recommend a SERM during PCT in combination with the Testosterone Recovery Stack (TRS) -- A completely legal, natural, tried & true PCT stack. (about to be discussed)

    I recommend the following SERM’s, in order of most to least desirable –

    Toremifene – 40mg/day
    Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) – 10mg/day
    Clomid (Clomiphene) – 25mg/day

    As I mentioned above, hCG should be used for any cycle longer than 6 weeks. If you follow the proper hCG protocol, then it will be much easier to recover for PCT, and the TRS alone will be sufficient for recovery. However, if hCG was not used, then you will likely benefit from stacking one of the above listed SERM’s with the TRS. (since you will need all the help you can get)

    The TRS has proven to be so safe & effective, that guys are shunning Clomid and Nolvadex every chance they get and using the TRS alone for PCT. Hundreds of testimonials and dozens of blood tests from real life customers have proven the Testosterone Recovery Stack to be just as effective as a SERM for PCT, but without the side effects. For those that may want additional support for PCT, the TRS stacks synergistically with low responsible doses of SERMs. (Just checkout the PCT Stacking Guideline table below)

    So what exactly is the TRS?



    The main product in the TRS is the legendary Sustain Alpha -- a natural testosterone boosting topical cream.

    It's no surprise that Sustain Alpha is the foundation of the TRS. It’s powerful active ingredients are pulled through the skin and straight to the blood stream with our advanced topical delivery formula. Once in the blood, they are carried to the brain – right where they start triggering the testes to produce testosterone like a fountain of youth.

    Speaking of the triggering testosterone production; How does Sustain Alpha work?

    The main ingredients in Sustain Alpha – resveratrol and 7,8-benzoflavone – are natural anti-estrogens. However, both of these compounds have proven to be more like estrogen balancers as blood tests have revealed that Sustain Alpha can raise estrogen if it is too low or lower estrogen if it is too high – therefore offering the ideal solution for virtually any individual.

    You see, a little estrogen is a good thing. Too low of estrogen can reduce libido, inhibit recovery, and hurt heart health by raising bad cholesterol. (a typical side-effect of using pharmaceuticals like Arimidex or Aromasin which can overly suppress estrogen levels as I mentioned earlier)

    So the question is…

    If Sustain Alpha isn't significantly inhibiting estrogen, then how exactly is it significantly increasing LH, FSH and natural testosterone levels?

    Before jumping into the science let me give you a brief background on hormone production -



    Basic Hormone Production
    The Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis (HPTA)


    In a normal healthy male luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) are sent from the brain (the pituitary) to stimulate the testes to make testosterone and sperm.

    The release of LH & FSH from the pituitary is stimulated by Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is stimulated to produce GnRH when it senses low levels of testosterone and estrogen. (hypothalamus [GnRH] --- > pituitary [LH & FSH]--- > testes [testosterone])


    On the other hand, when the brain detects high levels of testosterone and estrogen it suppresses the release of GnRH, LH & FSH, and eventually testosterone production. This is called the negative feedback loop – the normal daily rhythm of hormone production.

    Traditionally, boosting LH & FSH to stimulate testosterone involved the use of a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) to directly block estrogen at the receptor (eg, Clomid & Nolvadex) or inhibition of estrogen formation by blocking the aromatase enzyme with aromatase inhibitors (eg, ATD, 6-bromo, formestane, Aromasin, Letrozol, ect).



    Now on to the science on what makes Sustain Alpha so unique...

    Recently, it has been found that the main ingredient in Sustain Alpha – the naturally occurring flavone 7,8-Benzoflavone -- increases testosterone production by preventing the negative feedback of testosterone and estrogen on the hypothalamus through GABAergic modulation.

    That's right, GABAergic modulation, but please let me explain before jumping out of your seat.

    As you may know, γ-amino-butyric acid (GABA) is an inhibitory neurotransmitter known to play an important role in sleep, learning, memory and pain sensation. In fact, GABA supplements are often used to promote relaxation and sleep. However, the GABAergic system is a tremendously complex family of receptors which interact not only with GABA, but hundreds of other neuro-active chemicals all throughout the body.

    The important thing to understand here is that GABA and GABAergic transmission are two separate things.

    With that in mind, researchers are just beginning to understand how the GABAergic system regulates the hypothalamus and GnRH secretion.

    So far, it's been established that there is no androgen receptor (AR) or estrogen receptor (ER) on GnRH releasing neurons. This is fascinating, because it means that steroid hormones such as testosterone and estrogen must communicate with GnRH neurons through intermediaries. Meaning, steroid hormones must signal the release of certain neurotransmitters to suppress GnRH secretion in the hypothalamus. One of the neurotransmitter systems involved in this communication process is the GABAergic system.



    As you can imagine, if the neurotransmitters can be blocked or antagonized, then suppression from steroid hormones can be reduced or possibly eliminated. By blocking the suppression, this allows the hypothalamus to continue secreting GnRH, thus allowing the testes to continue pumping out testosterone like they never missed a beat!

    7,8-benzoflavone is a neuro-active flavone that reaches the hypothalamus and binds to the GABAergic receptors that modulate GnRH release. In fact, animal studies have already shown 7,8-benzoflavone can prevent the drug related decline in LH, FSH and testosterone production. By interacting with the GABAergic receptors, 7,8-benzoflavone is able to offset hypothalamic suppression of GnRH from steroid hormones.

    We realized the incredible potential of this flavone, and recently increased the concentration of 7,8-benzoflavone by 15% in the newest 5.0 formula. Now, Sustain Alpha is more potent than ever.

    So what does this mean for a guy wanting to boost testosterone?

    This means LH & FSH levels can be boosted quickly and effectively without overly suppressing estrogen and sacrificing overall health. This means Sustain Alpha is perfect for any PCT, or any male wishing to optimize his "male performance" with higher testosterone levels. This also means that Sustain Alpha is unlike anything else on the market.

    Yet, there is one factor that will keep you from getting maximum gains from Sustain Alpha, and that is testicular sensitivity.

    Let me explain…

    No matter how much LH & FSH the brain secretes, the testes won't secrete testosterone if they are desensitized to LH & FSH. (remember, this can happen from too much, or not enough LH & FSH stimulation)

    Therefore, maintaining testicular sensitivity is critical, and this is precisely what Toco-8 was designed for.



    Toco-8 is a powdered tocotrienol supplement proven to increase testicular sensitivity. When taken with Sustain Alpha, a powerful synergy occurs. By increasing testicular sensitivity, Toco-8 makes Sustain Alpha 3-4x more effective, thus allowing the body to produce more testosterone than it ever could before. Research has also proven that Toco-8 can increase the effectiveness of hCG by the same mechanism. Consider Toco-8 the beginning of a great testicular awakening – critical for a strong testosterone response to LH & FSH stimulation.

    The final piece of the TRS is cortisol control.

    Cortisol is a nasty stress hormone that can breakdown muscle tissue and reduce the ability of the body to produce testosterone. This is especially bad during PCT when getting testosterone levels up as quickly as possible is the #1 goal.

    For reducing the damaging effects of cortisol we created EndoAmp.



    Each serving of EndoAmp gains a scientifically proven 800mg dose of phosphatidylserine (PS). This is the exact same dose used in human clinical trials to suppress cortisol, raise testosterone and prevent muscle breakdown. PS is a very important naturally occurring phospholipid which helps reduce stress related catabolism and cortisol release.


    Recap


    Take hCG during the cycle if your cycle is over 6 weeks (follow the guidelines above for hCG dosing).

    For PCT, use the TRS, which includes the testosterone surging Sustain Alpha, the testicular sensitizer Toco-8, and the cortisol blocker EndoAmp. Stack this with a low dose SERM if desired (see stacking guidelines below).

    To make things easy just follow the below table for when to discontinue AAS’s prior to PCT -


    Then follow this table for PCT -


    * Toremifene is the #1 perferred SERM, followed by Nolvadex, followed by Clomid.

    Notes:

    Apply Sustain Alpha anytime of the day, after a shower. Use 5 days on, 2 days off.
    Take Toco-8 anytime during the day with or without food.
    Take 2 scoops of EndoAmp after workouts or in the morning on non-workout days.

    Make no mistake, the TRS is one of the most powerful testosterone simulating stacks on the market, but don’t take my word for it. Jump on Google or any major bodybuilding forum and put in a search for the above products -- you will see they are the real deal, backed by thousands of positive reviews from actual users.

    I’d like to thank you for reading the Official PCT for 2009 and supporting Primordial Performance!

    Yours in health & fitness,

    Eric Potratz
    Primordial Founder & President

    Questions?

    Phone – 1-800-568-2924
    Email - info@primordialperformance.com
    Visit - Primordial Performance

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    Does one need to worry about transmitting Sustain Alpha to their significant other from physical contact as you might with Androgel or Testim1%?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeightShift View Post
    Does one need to worry about transmitting Sustain Alpha to their significant other from physical contact as you might with Androgel or Testim1%?
    I believe it's non hormonal
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigchourico View Post
    I believe it's non hormonal
    So I would think no problem. I believe the Dermacrine has DHEA so that would be more of a problem.
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    Right, but males and females have the same neuropathways and feedback systems. Afterall, we're all made from the same thing. So any thing affecting my HPTA or estrogen levels could presumably affect my girlfriend's levels as well.

    I'm just curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeightShift View Post
    Does one need to worry about transmitting Sustain Alpha to their significant other from physical contact as you might with Androgel or Testim1%?
    No worries, and even if it did transfer and absorb it wouldn’t do any harm. The only topicals you need to be concerned about are the ones with hormones. (eg, Dermacrine, 1-T, 1-T TREN, ect)

    Remember, the active ingredients are reveratrol and 7,8-benzoflavone… both natural ingredients from foods/herbs that women have been consuming for thousands of years.

    -Eric
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    Great thread!
    Product Educator | USPowders
    Statements made by this online persona are the sole property of the owner, and do not necessarily reflect USPowders’ opinion as a whole.
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    Remember the code SPONSOR10 will save you 10% off at www.primordialperformance.com

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Remember the code SPONSOR10 will save you 10% off at www.primordialperformance.com

    -Eric
    What's the code for 50% off ???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigchourico View Post
    What's the code for 50% off ???
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    Just from reading this artiucle it makes me wonder if using inhibit-e with my PCT is the wrong thing to do?

    I did T-Roid 60/60/90/90/90
    PCT
    Clomid 100/100/50/50
    Inhibit-e 0/0/1/1/2

    Should i drop the inhibit-e?
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    Why is clomid less desirable than nolva? It really depends if you are concerned with HPTA regen or just preventing gyno IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigchourico View Post
    SPONSOR50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb123 View Post
    Just from reading this artiucle it makes me wonder if using inhibit-e with my PCT is the wrong thing to do?

    I did T-Roid 60/60/90/90/90
    PCT
    Clomid 100/100/50/50
    Inhibit-e 0/0/1/1/2

    Should i drop the inhibit-e?
    Yeah, T-roid (19-Norandrosta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione) does not aromatize and clears the system within 2-3 days like most oral pro-steroids, so you aren’t going to have an estrogen issue to worry about. (So no need for AI’s IMO)

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    Why is clomid less desirable than nolva? It really depends if you are concerned with HPTA regen or just preventing gyno IMO.
    Clomid is too estrogenic, and has more side-effects than nolva, so I generally don’t prefer it. (for HPTA regeneration or gyno prevention)

    I talk about SERM’s in detail in my article here -


    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Yeah, T-roid (19-Norandrosta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione) does not aromatize and clears the system within 2-3 days like most oral pro-steroids, so you aren’t going to have an estrogen issue to worry about. (So no need for AI’s IMO)

    -Eric
    How about eastrogen rebound from the clomid? I am guessing thats why I have been told to take it at the end of my cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb123 View Post
    How about eastrogen rebound from the clomid? I am guessing thats why I have been told to take it at the end of my cycle.
    Yeah, you could use it during the last week of clomid therapy, but that’s it. Remember, part of the estrogenic rebound is from clomid itself, which an AI will do nothing about. (zuclomiphene isomer with agonistic action)

    BTW, you would be more than fine with 50mg/day of Clomid the entire 4 weeks.

    -Eric
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    subbed.

    this has alot of great info.Cheers!
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    I gotta hurry and get all the primordial perf. stuff I can before its sold out!! Mercy!!
    True story:

    I give a f**K!!
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    Eric what are your opinions on adding natty test boosters to the PCT you outlined?
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    subb'd... very nice first post... reps!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Yeah, you could use it during the last week of clomid therapy, but that’s it. Remember, part of the estrogenic rebound is from clomid itself, which an AI will do nothing about. (zuclomiphene isomer with agonistic action)

    BTW, you would be more than fine with 50mg/day of Clomid the entire 4 weeks.

    -Eric

    I am pretty shut down even on 100mg. My balls are back and I can get an erection but I can't for the life of me want to have sex. My labido is just crushed.

    I will take the inhibit-e in my last week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb123 View Post
    I am pretty shut down even on 100mg. My balls are back and I can get an erection but I can't for the life of me want to have sex. My labido is just crushed.

    I will take the inhibit-e in my last week.

    i have the same problem. no desire! I need that back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb123 View Post
    I am pretty shut down even on 100mg. My balls are back and I can get an erection but I can't for the life of me want to have sex. My labido is just crushed.

    I will take the inhibit-e in my last week.
    Quote Originally Posted by angel77 View Post
    i have the same problem. no desire! I need that back.
    Dudes, Clomid kills some guys libido.. it's one of the sides, look it up.. your libido should come back when you taper the clomid down, or finish up with it..
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    Eric,
    Ok this is perfect timing..
    I'm starting my PCT today, my cycle was Xtreme Tren 90/90/90/90/90/90
    I've choosen the Torem and the TRS.. here come the detailed questions...

    1. I want to dose my SERM at night before bed. I also want to dose my Toco-8 and Sustain before bed. So all three of thease at the same time. During sleep alot of Test production is done if I'm not mistaken. Would it not be best to dose this at night?
    2. Is it best to dose the Toco-8 and Sustain together, since the Toco-8 increases the testies sensitivity to LH and FSH? Does it matter, say if you dose them 12 hrs apart?
    3. You call for 40mgs everyday of the Torem. But I saw in another thread you said a guy could, possibly go double that in a agressive protocal. So a guy can go 80/80/40/40 if he chooses?
    4. Do you recomened a certain time of the day for the SERM and Sustain, Toco-8 dosing?
    5. I'm taking my EndoAmp every AM upon waking, even on workout days. On workout day I will be taking MuscleLink Cort-Bloc right after my workouts in late afternoon. The MuscleLink, has 200mgs Phosphatidylserine and 800mgs Glutimaine peptide per serving. I want the EndoAmp when I wake up for Cortisol control everyday, I'll use the MuscleLink for post workout cortisol control. Is this flat out overkill, or a good idea?

    Lastly I live 5 minutes from ZRT and I will at least have my Total Test done thru blood. I might do the 4 hormone, I don't know... I'm looking for some good numbers..
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLM5 View Post
    Dudes, Clomid kills some guys libido.. it's one of the sides, look it up.. your libido should come back when you taper the clomid down, or finish up with it..
    cheers for the info bud. reps
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    good post, a lot of info! I think I will pick up a kit for my next cycle
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    Eric what are your opinions on adding natty test boosters to the PCT you outlined?
    Maybe something mild like stinging nettle is fine. I have mixed feelings about tribulus supplements. I really havent researched them enough to say for certain if they would have a positive or negative effect…. Although they are probably fine.

    I would just be careful with forskolin. It upregulates aromatase and E2 levels pretty quick in most guys. (via cAMP)

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb123 View Post
    I am pretty shut down even on 100mg. My balls are back and I can get an erection but I can't for the life of me want to have sex. My labido is just crushed.

    I will take the inhibit-e in my last week.
    Clomid is partly responsible for the libido suppression, and perhaps T levels.

    A blood test would tell you for sure though. (We sell a basic total T & E2 blood test for $80)

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLM5 View Post
    Eric,
    Ok this is perfect timing..
    I'm starting my PCT today, my cycle was Xtreme Tren 90/90/90/90/90/90
    I've choosen the Torem and the TRS.. here come the detailed questions...

    1. I want to dose my SERM at night before bed. I also want to dose my Toco-8 and Sustain before bed. So all three of thease at the same time. During sleep alot of Test production is done if I'm not mistaken. Would it not be best to dose this at night?

    Im not sure if it’s really “best” but there certainly isn’t anything wrong with it. (as in it probably isnt any different than taking them in the morning)
    2. Is it best to dose the Toco-8 and Sustain together, since the Toco-8 increases the testies sensitivity to LH and FSH? Does it matter, say if you dose them 12 hrs apart?

    Again, this won’t really mater. The Toco consists of lipophilic vitamins that tends to store in the areas you need them, so exact timing is not terribly important.

    3. You call for 40mgs everyday of the Torem. But I saw in another thread you said a guy could, possibly go double that in a agressive protocal. So a guy can go 80/80/40/40 if he chooses?

    I wouldn’t say a 6 week cycle of a fast acting oral requires aggressive treatment. But sure, this would be fine.

    4. Do you recomened a certain time of the day for the SERM and Sustain, Toco-8 dosing?

    Nope. Anytime of the day.

    5. I'm taking my EndoAmp every AM upon waking, even on workout days. On workout day I will be taking MuscleLink Cort-Bloc right after my workouts in late afternoon. The MuscleLink, has 200mgs Phosphatidylserine and 800mgs Glutimaine peptide per serving. I want the EndoAmp when I wake up for Cortisol control everyday, I'll use the MuscleLink for post workout cortisol control. Is this flat out overkill, or a good idea?

    If you’re getting that extra 200mg of PS, you could probably cut down the EndoAmp dose a bit and make it last a bit longer.

    Lastly I live 5 minutes from ZRT and I will at least have my Total Test done thru blood. I might do the 4 hormone, I don't know... I'm looking for some good numbers..


    T, E2, LH, and FSH would be nice to know.

    If T comes out as being low, then testing for HbA1c and Vitamin D can help tell you a bit more about your condition and what can be done to help. (eg, focus on improving insulin sensitivity, getting more sunlight, ect)





    -Eric
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    After reading what you posted about running
    AI's as a post cycle and the associated sides.... How do you feel about people who run them solo for hardening and fatloss? Is this a mistake considering the potential side effects.
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    Eric,
    Thanks for your time to answer the questions I asked. I'm feeling good that the Torem and the TRS will give me good results, and my T levels will come out good.

    I'll give a few comments from my first nights use of the Sustain...
    I applied 5 pumps to my upper back, shoulders, chest, and torso. I put one pump on my balls. The balls felt like I had a super mild, mild, coat of icy-hot on them, but it wasn't painful. The 5 pumps to my upper body I could touch and get a skim film on my finger a hour later. I'll try to spread the next application out over a wider area and make it a thinner coating.
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    Why only 10mg Nolva recommendation?
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted View Post
    After reading what you posted about running
    AI's as a post cycle and the associated sides.... How do you feel about people who run them solo for hardening and fatloss? Is this a mistake considering the potential side effects.

    I think in general, AI’s are overrated for fat loss.

    They can be useful if trying to reduce water retention, but I wouldn’t use them for more than 4-6 weeks, and I would take at least equal time off between each cycle.

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Why only 10mg Nolva recommendation?
    Because it’s going to still be effective for stimulating testosterone producion… with minimal chance of side-effects.

    -Eric
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    good read
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Because it’s going to still be effective for stimulating testosterone producion… with minimal chance of side-effects.

    -Eric
    Interesting...

    As I'm sure you've noticed, most people giving advice (broscience) seem to consider 20mg Nolva to be about the minimum dose. I see a lot of people recommending a 60-40mg starting dose and taper down to 20mg for the last few weeks of PCT.

    10mg being plenty for PCT is news to me (albeit welcomed news). I'd love to see you elaborate on it if you can.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    so forskolin isnt recommended while on cycle what about for the thyroid is there something natty that would be good on cycle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Interesting...

    10mg being plenty for PCT is news to me (albeit welcomed news). I'd love to see you elaborate on it if you can.
    I agree. I've never heard about or read about 10 mgs being the most that you need to dose,
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    Quote Originally Posted by flightposite View Post
    so forskolin isnt recommended while on cycle what about for the thyroid is there something natty that would be good on cycle?
    I thought Forskolin was good on cycle because it opens up androgen receptors.
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