Havoc: Taking It Too Seriously or Not Giving It The Respect It Deserves?

[Irish Pilot]

I guess not even specifically Havoc, but Im using that as its the one Ive considered trying. Ive been considering a Havoc run and have been trying to self-educate by reading all the stickies, threads, journals, etc. It would be my first venture into this style of supplements.

Its been an interesting experiment learning about it though. There is everything out there from journal after journal of early 20s guys running it without issue, to 30s+ guys running it and being attacked for how they looked in their pics and whether or not they were ready for a run (you know the thread).

Its left me a little...confused. When I first started researching it, I figured that its in simple terms: a legal, effective hormonal product that if used properly can help someone make large gains in lifting. Heck...its nutraplanet's top seller...how bad can it be right?

What kind of caliber supplement are we talking about here...as Im downright confused at this point. Im 29 yrs old, have lifted on and off for years and recently (the past year) have gotten back into lifting seriously and really have my diet in check. My "training" easily dominates my life...but I love it. Am I stretching to think that a supplement like this would be beneficial to me? Is it only for the lifter with years upon years of experience and an already massive build? Or am I reading too much and blowing it out of proportion?

Ive read everything I can get my hands on, and feel good about my research however still feel nervous because of all the varying opinions Ive read. I wouldnt normally be one to be so affected by others thoughts...but when it comes to lifting, Ive found that your friend's experience through trial and error is one of the best supplements out there. Thats why these forums are so great right?

So what is a guy like me supposed to think of a supplement like this?

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

It'a an anabolic steroid.

 

[ibanezman08]

I guess not even specifically Havoc, but Im using that as its the one Ive considered trying. Ive been considering a Havoc run and have been trying to self-educate by reading all the stickies, threads, journals, etc. It would be my first venture into this style of supplements.

Its been an interesting experiment learning about it though. There is everything out there from journal after journal of early 20s guys running it without issue, to 30s+ guys running it and being attacked for how they looked in their pics and whether or not they were ready for a run (you know the thread).

Its left me a little...confused. When I first started researching it, I figured that its in simple terms: a legal, effective hormonal product that if used properly can help someone make large gains in lifting. Heck...its nutraplanet's top seller...how bad can it be right?

What kind of caliber supplement are we talking about here...as Im downright confused at this point. Im 29 yrs old, have lifted on and off for years and recently (the past year) have gotten back into lifting seriously and really have my diet in check. My "training" easily dominates my life...but I love it. Am I stretching to think that a supplement like this would be beneficial to me? Is it only for the lifter with years upon years of experience and an already massive build? Or am I reading too much and blowing it out of proportion?

Ive read everything I can get my hands on, and feel good about my research however still feel nervous because of all the varying opinions Ive read. I wouldnt normally be one to be so affected by others thoughts...but when it comes to lifting, Ive found that your friend's experience through trial and error is one of the best supplements out there. Thats why these forums are so great right?

So what is a guy like me supposed to think of a supplement like this?

it is true that is is indeed an anabolic steroid like the guy above me said.

this is a good thread/question bro!!!

here's what i think.

a pro-hormone or steroid, whatever you wanna call it, works better when you know how to bodybuild. in other words, you know how to train and diet to gain muscle naturally and you have a decent build/base already.
i feel that if you're not at least as experienced as THAT, you are not going to reep the full benefits that hormonal supplements like havoc can have.

if you're looking to put on quick size, you are overestimated havoc and legal gear IMO. it's not a shortcut. havoc is an amazing designer steroid and i feel someone with less experience will not be able to appreciate it for what it is because IMO, it's one of the best designer steroids out there although nowhere near the strongest.

i gained 6 quality pounds on a 7 1/2 week run of epistane and gained 20lbs of strength on most compound lifts like bench press/ squat/ deadlift/ shoulder press.

you asked if you are stretching it to think that havoc is a product that will be beneficial to you. my answer is absolutely not! you have to know how to use it and get the best out of it though.

and many people will say many different things. you'll never know how you'll react for sure until you try it. start out at 30mg a day for a week or two and see how you respond. if you need to, increase your dosage to 40mg. if you're not making slow steady progress at 40mg by week 3, you're doing something wrong whether it's your diet, training, or rest.

good luck.

 

[e5cmb]

I guess not even specifically Havoc, but Im using that as its the one Ive considered trying. Ive been considering a Havoc run and have been trying to self-educate by reading all the stickies, threads, journals, etc. It would be my first venture into this style of supplements.

Its been an interesting experiment learning about it though. There is everything out there from journal after journal of early 20s guys running it without issue, to 30s+ guys running it and being attacked for how they looked in their pics and whether or not they were ready for a run (you know the thread).

Its left me a little...confused. When I first started researching it, I figured that its in simple terms: a legal, effective hormonal product that if used properly can help someone make large gains in lifting. Heck...its nutraplanet's top seller...how bad can it be right?

What kind of caliber supplement are we talking about here...as Im downright confused at this point. Im 29 yrs old, have lifted on and off for years and recently (the past year) have gotten back into lifting seriously and really have my diet in check. My "training" easily dominates my life...but I love it. Am I stretching to think that a supplement like this would be beneficial to me? Is it only for the lifter with years upon years of experience and an already massive build? Or am I reading too much and blowing it out of proportion?

Ive read everything I can get my hands on, and feel good about my research however still feel nervous because of all the varying opinions Ive read. I wouldnt normally be one to be so affected by others thoughts...but when it comes to lifting, Ive found that your friend's experience through trial and error is one of the best supplements out there. Thats why these forums are so great right?

So what is a guy like me supposed to think of a supplement like this?

Wow Bro, I'm pretty much in the same position you are in; just a few years older (34). I have been reading practically day and night on this site for over a week now and one other site and have gained so much knowledge, but I'm still seeking more.

The people here are great, have an array of knowledge and seem to look out for one another.

I have started ordering my supps and will be beginning my cycle of Havoc as soon as I have all of what I need for pre-cycle, during and PCT. That's one of the first things I learned while reading.....have all your gear you'll need prior to starting your cycle.

Good luck and I hope for great results for you!

 

[neoborn]

It'a an anabolic steroid.

x 10. I myself use anything and do anything I please, because I love life and love to experience new things. Now with anything one must always weigh the pro's and cons, then prepare and walk out a plan methodically.

Have fun and live by your conscience.

Much Love.

Neoborn

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Honestly, the chances aren't too high of adverse events from taking this drug. For one, the side effects are generally minimal, and as long as you keep the dosage and cycle length responsible, you should encounter no issues.. just some great muscle and strength gains!!!

 

[Chub]

It's a great product, my strength is pretty much through the roof at the moment

 

[Irish Pilot]

I guess one of my big hangups is that I refuse to do anything illegal. Therefore, part of my "cycle" would be an OTC PCT. (Reversitol, CS, PCS, Creatine, etc.) I keep coming back to the fact that if Im not willing to run a SERM, maybe I shouldnt be running anything at all.

I dont need to run Havoc. Ill be honest...Id be doing it more out of experimentation and curiosity than anything else. I dont feel like I dont have the competitive edge without it or anything lol. Dont let that fool you though, Im still taking it quite seriously. Im one of those people who usually puts countless hours of research into any decision, big or small. I think thats my problem here...Ive just read too much.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I guess one of my big hangups is that I refuse to do anything illegal. Therefore, part of my "cycle" would be an OTC PCT. (Reversitol, CS, PCS, Creatine, etc.) I keep coming back to the fact that if Im not willing to run a SERM, maybe I shouldnt be running anything at all.

I dont need to run Havoc. Ill be honest...Id be doing it more out of experimentation and curiosity than anything else. I dont feel like I dont have the competitive edge without it or anything lol. Dont let that fool you though, Im still taking it quite seriously. Im one of those people who usually puts countless hours of research into any decision, big or small. I think thats my problem here...Ive just read too much.

You can stay legal bro, with havoc, for sure. Sustain Alpha by Primordial Performance has proved to be a great post cycle option for many. A great otc pct, IMO would be the following:

Sustain Alpha (follow label directions)
Advanced PCT (taper it week by week like this: 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1)

 

[Irish Pilot]

For whatever it may be worth, this was my laid out plan...

Weeks 1-6 Cycle Support (2 scoops daily, 4hrs seperation from Havoc) am/pm
Weeks 3-6 Havoc:

Wk 3 - 20 20 20 20 20 20 20
Wk 4 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 5 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 6 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30

Dose every 5-6 hours

Weeks 7-12 Reversitol 3/2/2/1
Post Cycle Support 0/0/4/4/4/4
Cycle Support (2 scoops daily)

Taurine During - 2g pre and post wo
Potassium - More than 1 g/day

 

[Chub]

For whatever it may be worth, this was my laid out plan...

Weeks 1-6 Cycle Support (2 scoops daily, 4hrs seperation from Havoc) am/pm
Weeks 3-6 Havoc:

Wk 3 - 20 20 20 20 20 20 20
Wk 4 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 5 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 6 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30

Dose every 5-6 hours

Weeks 7-12 Reversitol 3/2/2/1
Post Cycle Support 0/0/4/4/4/4
Cycle Support (2 scoops daily)

Taurine During - 2g pre and post wo
Potassium - More than 1 g/day

Look into Poseidon by Nimbus Nutrition. Great supplement to run along with any cycle.

 

[crowpass]

before jumping on the havoc band wagon, wait about a month or two and check out some of the logs on APPNUTS "the one". I am really awaiting to see the results of this product, if you thing havoc is good just wait, if you can of course, and check the logs on this compound, 14 pounds in two weeks aint no joke, ut to each his own. Ive honestly been sitting on a bottle of havoc for a 8 months now...., its crazy, i want to take it but im kinda iffy about it. what ever you do... good luck

 

[e5cmb]

I start my cycle of Havoc this coming Saturday and am looking forward to it. I also have a bottle of Decabolen, which will probably gain some dust in my cupboard till this summer or maybe forever.

The more I read, the more I learn. Having said that, I think a lot of the "sides" can be avoided with proper knowledge, diet, supps, and training. If any one of them is off or taken for granted, then your asking for problems.

"Be kind to your body, as it's the only one you'll ever have!"

 

[Irish Pilot]

I start my cycle of Havoc this coming Saturday and am looking forward to it... The more I read, the more I learn...

Agreed. Are you going to journal it? Ive decided that if I do it, Im going to pulse. Just currently researching how to align the supplementation during a pulse.

 

[e5cmb]

Agreed. Are you going to journal it? Ive decided that if I do it, Im going to pulse. Just currently researching how to align the supplementation during a pulse.

I'm actually putting together an Excel spreadsheet that has all my supps, times, workouts, weight, etc. I'll run it from the beginning of my cycle to the end. So far I have two days worth of liver supps (Liver Armor), creatine, beta-alanine, aminos and whey protein for my pre-cycle.

I do not plan on pulsing the cycle.....but I'd be interested on hearing how yours goes.

Godspeed,

 

[CopyCat]

For whatever it may be worth, this was my laid out plan...

Weeks 1-6 Cycle Support (2 scoops daily, 4hrs seperation from Havoc) am/pm
Weeks 3-6 Havoc:

Wk 3 - 20 20 20 20 20 20 20
Wk 4 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 5 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
Wk 6 - 30 30 30 30 30 30 30

Dose every 5-6 hours

Weeks 7-12 Reversitol 3/2/2/1
Post Cycle Support 0/0/4/4/4/4
Cycle Support (2 scoops daily)

Taurine During - 2g pre and post wo
Potassium - More than 1 g/day

I would bet you will want to go 40 in the last week. 20/30/30/40 or 20/30/40/40. I'm a bit more reserved than ibanez and personally I feel for good reason, but each person is deferent.

That being said I still recommend a SERM...(the technicalities of a SERM don't exactly make it illegal or legal (sort of), it's a grey area. You'd already be doing a steroid, though legally bought still a steroid. If OTC is the way you insist on going, then please keep researching a bit more. Your cycle seems a bit on the weak side. It's def a good start, but only states the big/obvious supps.

Not to be a ****, but...

Research well, be able to explain why you are taking a supp (not just that I'm taking Cycle support/Post cycle support because it blankets all).
i.e. why the hawthorne berry, why the saw [palmetto, why the nettle root, and why the Trans-Resveratrol and why you would want an anti cort or why you would want an aromatase inhibitor, etc. etc.

If you can answer those and your diet/training is good to go, fukin do it. If not, handle it son.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

Some here report good gains while taking only 10 mg a day, but for 10 weeks or more - and virtually sidefree!

 

[CopyCat]

Some here report good gains while taking only 10 mg a day, but for 10 weeks or more - and virtually sidefree!

Yeah, but not sure I would want to take a methylated product that long. I guess if I had blood results showing my progress the whole way, but still. My liver.

 

[Irish Pilot]

I would bet you will want to go 40 in the last week. 20/30/30/40 or 20/30/40/40...

That being said I still recommend a SERM...(the technicalities of a SERM don't exactly make it illegal or legal (sort of), it's a grey area. You'd already be doing a steroid, though legally bought still a steroid. If OTC is the way you insist on going, then please keep researching a bit more. Your cycle seems a bit on the weak side...

Not to be a ****, but...

Research well, be able to explain why you are taking a supp...

If you can answer those and your diet/training is good to go, fukin do it. If not, handle it son.

I shall. I appreciate the honest insight. I do insist on OTC. IF I do this I want to keep it legal and out of the gray area . That being said, I want to do it correctly if I do it at all.

I know the layout may look a little weak, but Im trying to play it a little on the conservative side. Im doing some continuing research on maybe a "pulse" cycle. My most deficient area at the moment most certainly is understanding and alignment of supplementation...but Im working on it. Just when I think I have it figured out I find a journal or thread where someone is doing it completely different lol.

 

[neoborn]

You can stay legal bro, with havoc, for sure. Sustain Alpha by Primordial Performance has proved to be a great post cycle option for many. A great otc pct, IMO would be the following:

Sustain Alpha (follow label directions)
Advanced PCT (taper it week by week like this: 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1)

This is an oversight...what it should say is "within the united states, depending on your state laws you should be able to remain completely legal with this product. What if he was in Canada or elsewhere that its a scheduled drug?:grouphug:

 

[ibanezman08]

i got bad gains from pulsing at 40mg for 8 weeks 3 days a week.

in fact, i didn't get much gains at all that i can say for sure were from havoc.

however, running it straight, i gained 6lbs solid.

 

[CopyCat]

I shall. I appreciate the honest insight. I do insist on OTC. IF I do this I want to keep it legal and out of the gray area . That being said, I want to do it correctly if I do it at all.

I know the layout may look a little weak, but Im trying to play it a little on the conservative side. Im doing some continuing research on maybe a "pulse" cycle. My most deficient area at the moment most certainly is understanding and alignment of supplementation...but Im working on it. Just when I think I have it figured out I find a journal or thread where someone is doing it completely different lol.

Here are some links with tons of good info. They should help you out quite a bit.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/64820-designer-steroid-prohormone.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/recomp-performance-nutrition/82835-havoc-write-up.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/89979-otc-hormone-chart.html

http://www.postcycletherapy.com/

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/106828-beginners-sample-otc.html

http://www.otcpct.com/

 

[Graglor]

Wow Bro, I'm pretty much in the same position you are in; just a few years older (34). I have been reading practically day and night on this site for over a week now and one other site and have gained so much knowledge, but I'm still seeking more.

The people here are great, have an array of knowledge and seem to look out for one another.

I have started ordering my supps and will be beginning my cycle of Havoc as soon as I have all of what I need for pre-cycle, during and PCT. That's one of the first things I learned while reading.....have all your gear you'll need prior to starting your cycle.

Good luck and I hope for great results for you!

I'm with ya! 34 and researched my ass of for over a year. Years ago (when I was stupid) I bought M1T, 4AD, etc because guys at the gym said it was the sh#$at. Then researched it later and decided not to give it a go. Still have it though lol. Havoc/Epistane however, I've researched to the helm and have decided to give it a "pulse" go. According to the "Pulse Method" no PCT is required. If things go bad down the road, I am in Canada and I can just get a serm through a doctor for a medical reason. Done reading, gonna start doing. Can't go wrong with a pulse for a first cycle IMO.

 

[Frankster]

I have mixed feelings about Havoc.

I'm on my 4th week of Havoc I started with 20mg per day for three days

then 30mg five days a week for the past 3 weeks.

Yeah I have had some gains, difficult to say how much. My body weight hasnt changed much, but I feel more solid and my body fat has come down a few points (using a body fat scale which I'm told is not the most accurate method) But I'm sure I've gained a few pounds of muscle.

I originally wanted to lose some fat to expose muscle hidden underneath. I am an endo/mesomorph. Once I started on the Havoc my original goal changed. I decided to see how much muscle I could build, while hopefully losing fat.

Regarding side effects: My biggest complaint has been irritability, lack of concentration at work and lethargy for the last two weeks. I've gone from nice guy to short tempered and impatient. I have to force myself to be courteous.

This week My plan was to bump it up to 40mg for five to six days then pyramid back down for the next three weeks.

Today I took 40mg and I am crawling out of my skin. It feels like I overdosed on coffee. I probably wont sleep tonight. I hate the way I feel.

I'm going to lay off it completely tomorrow and drop back to 30mg 5-6 days per week and hopefully run it for two to three more weeks, then taper off for two weeks after then switch to 6oxo as a PCT. I know where I can get some nolvadex if I need to.

This experience has taught me that I probably wouldn't ever want to try illegal gear. Especially anything that involved a needle. I attribute a lot of my gains to hard work and clean eating with massive amounts of protein.

I must admit Havoc has put me in a workout and eat right frame of mind. I suppose I needed that nudge to get my butt on track.

I did injure myself in the gym today, a touch of "tennis elbow" which may slow me down, or even ruin the cycle. I hope not. I"m hoping it heals really fast.

My advise is research it. Know what you are getting into, and take the chance. The $40 investment was well worth it. I ordered a 2nd bottle to finish out the cycle (I'll only use half the bottle) and then do another cycle in six months to a year.

As in all things use it in moderation, and be careful.

 

[CopyCat]

I have mixed feelings about Havoc.

I'm on my 4th week of Havoc I started with 20mg per day for three days

then 30mg five days a week for the past 3 weeks.

Yeah I have had some gains, difficult to say how much. My body weight hasnt changed much, but I feel more solid and my body fat has come down a few points (using a body fat scale which I'm told is not the most accurate method) But I'm sure I've gained a few pounds of muscle.

I originally wanted to lose some fat to expose muscle hidden underneath. I am an endo/mesomorph. Once I started on the Havoc my original goal changed. I decided to see how much muscle I could build, while hopefully losing fat.

Regarding side effects: My biggest complaint has been irritability, lack of concentration at work and lethargy for the last two weeks. I've gone from nice guy to short tempered and impatient. I have to force myself to be courteous.

This week My plan was to bump it up to 40mg for five to six days then pyramid back down for the next three weeks.

Today I took 40mg and I am crawling out of my skin. It feels like I overdosed on coffee. I probably wont sleep tonight. I hate the way I feel.

I'm going to lay off it completely tomorrow and drop back to 30mg 5-6 days per week and hopefully run it for two to three more weeks, then taper off for two weeks after then switch to 6oxo as a PCT. I know where I can get some nolvadex if I need to.

This experience has taught me that I probably wouldn't ever want to try illegal gear. Especially anything that involved a needle. I attribute a lot of my gains to hard work and clean eating with massive amounts of protein.

I must admit Havoc has put me in a workout and eat right frame of mind. I suppose I needed that nudge to get my butt on track.

I did injure myself in the gym today, a touch of "tennis elbow" which may slow me down, or even ruin the cycle. I hope not. I"m hoping it heals really fast.

My advise is research it. Know what you are getting into, and take the chance. The $40 investment was well worth it. I ordered a 2nd bottle to finish out the cycle (I'll only use half the bottle) and then do another cycle in six months to a year.

As in all things use it in moderation, and be careful.

So your running a 7 week cycle of a Havoc?? What are your stats, what are you taking as support supps and what do you plan as a PCT?

 

[Irish Pilot]

Frankster Im interested to find that you have mixed emotions but are going with a second bottle. You obviously must like the gains you are finding in the gym to be continuing your cycle?

 

[Irish Pilot]

After much debate, Ive decided to forget the ph route for now. Im gonna keep up my cut through spring, try for a clean summer bulk, and then re-evaluate in the fall.

Even with the multitude of hours Ive spent reading and researching, I still feel behind the knowledge curve on something like this. Ill have to keep reading and make damn sure I have my **** together before taking this leap. Am I taking it too seriously? Maybe. If nothing else...if and when I ever decide to do it...Im gonna do it right and "get my moneys worth."

Thanks again to everyone for sharing their knowledge and opinion.

Irish

 

[e5cmb]

After much debate, Ive decided to forget the ph route for now. Im gonna keep up my cut through spring, try for a clean summer bulk, and then re-evaluate in the fall.

Even with the multitude of hours Ive spent reading and researching, I still feel behind the knowledge curve on something like this. Ill have to keep reading and make damn sure I have my **** together before taking this leap. Am I taking it too seriously? Maybe. If nothing else...if and when I ever decide to do it...Im gonna do it right and "get my moneys worth."

Thanks again to everyone for sharing their knowledge and opinion.

Irish

I certainly applaud your decision; especially if you not 100% confident.

I start my cycle on Saturday and am looking forward to it. I'll send you a PM and let you know how it's going. I may even run a log of it, but not yet sure.

Enjoy Bro,

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Very wise of you.

However, when you do decide to run something, I suggest Dermacrine or 1-T, followed up with Sustain Alpha for PCT. I think either of these would be perfect for a first timer wanting to stay on the legal side of things.

 

[rhodesman]

Very wise of you.

However, when you do decide to run something, I suggest Dermacrine or 1-T, followed up with Sustain Alpha for PCT. I think either of these would be perfect for a first timer wanting to stay on the legal side of things.

I agree. 1-T was very mild, yet it was my favorite cycle so far. PCT was a breeze as well.

 

[conwict]

You can't take your body and health too seriously. By the way though, you should look into getting doctor-prescribed clomid or nolvadex. You could even be honest with your doc and say you are planning on taking a legal hormonal supplement and that you want a SERM to kickstart your HPTA recovery. Why not?

 

[e5cmb]

You can't take your body and health too seriously. By the way though, you should look into getting doctor-prescribed clomid or nolvadex. You could even be honest with your doc and say you are planning on taking a legal hormonal supplement and that you want a SERM to kickstart your HPTA recovery. Why not?

Not a bad idea. I've been wondering about how to approach my doc, if that's the way I decided to get a SERM.

I have other ways, but that seems like the best way to go.

Thanks for the idea. I like the "wording"!!

 

[CopyCat]

Not a bad idea. I've been wondering about how to approach my doc, if that's the way I decided to get a SERM.

I have other ways, but that seems like the best way to go.

Thanks for the idea. I like the "wording"!!

However, that may be more effective in Canada than here in the States. Just so your not surprised if your doc says no and gives you a lecture on what you want to do.

 

[e5cmb]

However, that may be more effective in Canada than here in the States. Just so your not surprised if your doc says no and gives you a lecture on what you want to do.

Very true. Thanks!

 

[Liquid13]

I hear ya on the researching.. I spent close to 10 hours a day as a slave to the comp finding log after log and question after question for epi. I did this for a few months and I still have a few small questions lol. The time spent on the comp sure made the girly and friends upset haha.

 

[conwict]

IMO, here is what a play-by-play would look like with a doctor, bearing in mind that steroid use can compromise insurance coverage - we don't want that.

Doctor: Why are you here?
You: I was due for a general checkup. I also have another question. I am really into bodybuilding and I try lots of different supplements; I heard about some legal supplements that boost testosterone. The people on the internet say you need a S-E-R-M to boost your hormonal axis. I think I understand what that means. But I realize they are by prescription only.
Doctor: You don't want to mess with steroids. They can have all kinds of negative effects, and you certainly don't want it on your medical record--
You: I would never mess with steroids. I want to avoid the negative effects. I have decided that I want to go forward with this, and I have looked into the side effects of Clomid. That's what is recommended for the legal testosterone boosters I'm interested in. They work so well that they really do suppress endogenous testosterone. I'm interested in the S-E-R-M for a good reason, and I want to obtain it through you.

Worth a try at least. If he keeps stonewalling and lecturing, you could say "Please tell me whether you are willing to prescribe Clomid for the purpose I outlined." If he says no, hey...it's not like you have to see the guy all that often, anyway. A LITTLE POLITENESS goes a long way!

 

[e5cmb]

Worth a try at least. If he keeps stonewalling and lecturing, you could say "Please tell me whether you are willing to prescribe Clomid for the purpose I outlined." If he says no, hey...it's not like you have to see the guy all that often, anyway. A LITTLE POLITENESS goes a long way!

I agree that it's worth a try. The biggest hurdle for me would be the fact that I haven't really had a "family doctor", since getting out of the Marine Corps. I really shouldn't say that I haven't had one, rather I do not get seen by her. Although I am supposed to see Dr. "X", I see some damn physician's assistant or nurse practitioner. Medical care is so whacked nowadays.

I'm sure I could specify that I'd like to see "my" doctor; as I am paying damn good money for my health care. It's worth a shot. Can't hurt to try.

 

[crowpass]

im going to school to be a P.A.. they have all the same qualifications as a doctor except the extra few years of residency and an additional year of schooling.

 

[e5cmb]

im going to school to be a P.A.. they have all the same qualifications as a doctor except the extra few years of residency and an additional year of schooling.

My point regarding being seen by a PA or NP wasn't that they are any less qualified by any means. It's the fact that I haven't been able to develop a rapport with "one" provider and only one. It's rather frustrating. That's all.

 

[crowpass]

Doctors are there for the money and most of the PA's that i know actually deal more clintel that doctors do. But i understand your frusteration.

 

[Frankster]

I'm running a 6 week cycle with 2 weeks of tapering off for a total of 8weeks.
I also take Milk Thistle and wash it down with Dandelion Tea, as a liver support.
For heart/blood pressure, I take Hawthorne, Kyolic Garlic, and potassium.

The tapering off of Havoc will actually start at week six with 3 pills every other day, then 2 pills ever other day for weeks 7 and 8.

PCT will consist of 6oxo 3 pills per day for two weeks, then every other day until they are gone.

I have access to Nolvadex if I need it.

 

[Frankster]

Frankster Im interested to find that you have mixed emotions but are going with a second bottle. You obviously must like the gains you are finding in the gym to be continuing your cycle?

I'm buying the second bottle because I thought one bottle was enough for about 4-5 weeks, and it was suggested by a veteran body builder that I taper off the Havoc slowly. My reasoning was to take take one bottle within 5-6 weeks then taper off at much lower doses for 2 weeks after. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I WILL PROBABLY RECONSIDER!!!

I will definitely have some left over for another cycle in 6 months to a year. Buying a second bottle at the time was a hasty decision.

I initially only planned doing this for 5-6weeks (90 pills in 35-40 days). When I saw what I thought were amazing results at about two weeks. I felt 4 weeks may not be enough. So yes I definitely do like the gains.

I have a new muscle tone and hardness that I haven't experienced since I was in my early 20's. I have a renewed excitement in working out. I cant wait for the next workout. I just turned 46 so some people may accuse me of midlife crisis. I'd rather have a muscle body than a muscle car.

The Downside: I don't care for the irritability factor, as I have a job where I have to kiss ass and act professional;That is difficult enough when I'm not on Havoc. I'm not sleeping very long at night and I'm also tired a lot and take 4 and 5 hour naps on my days off from work.

Last night when I was posted I was a little freaked out. I couldn't sit still for a period of about 3 hours, and I was still amped up all day today. I feel much better now. That's what the "mixed feelings" were about. So I need to back off and listen to my body and use wisdom.

 

[dpfisher]

Just so you know doctors in the US are very unlikely to prescribe things for off-label uses. I have successfully gotten things (stims not serms) for off-label use by asking politely and demonstrating that I knew more about it than he did by describing why I wanted it and what the typical effects of it were. I made sure to use the phrase 'non-addictive' too. As he was filling out the prescription pad he said "I doubt any other doctor would give this to you ever." I am also very professional in appearance and demeanor and I know how to convince people to do things so that usually helps with stuff like this. This probably doesn't come across at all in my internet posts so you'll just have to believe me.

 

[e5cmb]

This probably doesn't come across at all in my internet posts so you'll just have to believe me.

Your comment above was rather comical - I believe you. :yup:

 

[ibanezman08]

I have mixed feelings about Havoc.

I'm on my 4th week of Havoc I started with 20mg per day for three days

then 30mg five days a week for the past 3 weeks.

Yeah I have had some gains, difficult to say how much. My body weight hasnt changed much, but I feel more solid and my body fat has come down a few points (using a body fat scale which I'm told is not the most accurate method) But I'm sure I've gained a few pounds of muscle.

I originally wanted to lose some fat to expose muscle hidden underneath. I am an endo/mesomorph. Once I started on the Havoc my original goal changed. I decided to see how much muscle I could build, while hopefully losing fat.

Regarding side effects: My biggest complaint has been irritability, lack of concentration at work and lethargy for the last two weeks. I've gone from nice guy to short tempered and impatient. I have to force myself to be courteous.

This week My plan was to bump it up to 40mg for five to six days then pyramid back down for the next three weeks.

Today I took 40mg and I am crawling out of my skin. It feels like I overdosed on coffee. I probably wont sleep tonight. I hate the way I feel.

I'm going to lay off it completely tomorrow and drop back to 30mg 5-6 days per week and hopefully run it for two to three more weeks, then taper off for two weeks after then switch to 6oxo as a PCT. I know where I can get some nolvadex if I need to.

This experience has taught me that I probably wouldn't ever want to try illegal gear. Especially anything that involved a needle. I attribute a lot of my gains to hard work and clean eating with massive amounts of protein.

I must admit Havoc has put me in a workout and eat right frame of mind. I suppose I needed that nudge to get my butt on track.

I did injure myself in the gym today, a touch of "tennis elbow" which may slow me down, or even ruin the cycle. I hope not. I"m hoping it heals really fast.

My advise is research it. Know what you are getting into, and take the chance. The $40 investment was well worth it. I ordered a 2nd bottle to finish out the cycle (I'll only use half the bottle) and then do another cycle in six months to a year.

As in all things use it in moderation, and be careful.

that's unfortunate bro!
i'm glad you decided not to take gear because you have to be able to deal with side effects and some of them are worse.

i feel ya on the lethargy

 

[jsg]

I'm with ya! 34 and researched my ass of for over a year. Years ago (when I was stupid) I bought M1T, 4AD, etc because guys at the gym said it was the sh#$at. Then researched it later and decided not to give it a go. Still have it though lol. Havoc/Epistane however, I've researched to the helm and have decided to give it a "pulse" go. According to the "Pulse Method" no PCT is required. If things go bad down the road, I am in Canada and I can just get a serm through a doctor for a medical reason. Done reading, gonna start doing. Can't go wrong with a pulse for a first cycle IMO.

And how did you get this in Canada? I have mine because while in the states I bought it and I'll be bringing it with me to Canada in different bottles but did you get yours shipped to Canada?

 

[conwict]

Doctors are there for the money

That's laughable. For the amount of effort, schooling, work hours, and difficulty in going into practice, most doctors could go into other fields where they make tons more money. True, family MDs stand to make a lot of profit, but the fact remains that most MDs today advise their kids NOT to become doctors. If it were easy money, why wouldn't they advise their kids to become doctors?

 

[crowpass]

my mom is a doctor. And she wants me to go to PA school. after the 8 years of schooling you have a 2-4 year residency, so PA school is better imo and my mothers.

 

[crowpass]

and yeah doctors make a ass load more money but PA's start out around 70-90k depending on waht you do and who you know.

 

[conwict]

I was more responding to your idea than to you. Didn't mean to sound like I was on the attack. That's cool that you're pursuing a good career, don't get me wrong! But coming from my political perspective, I tend to rant on people who say "Such and such are in it for the money." What follows is often "Such and such are overpaid," implying that the free market is somehow wrong about what people should get paid. There's really no such thing as overpaid or underpaid unless you have a government job, and even then if you're underpaid you can just switch jobs...which is why most government jobs overpay compared to the service requirements: they aren't even trying to compete.

This economics rant was brought to you by the letters O and T.