The ultimate bridge cycle

[Sldge]

Starting a new thread, with the M4OHT coming out soon there are some real good possibilites of bridging between cycles with anabic compounds that shouldnt shut down the HPTA axis or effect it. GH or IGF1 with insulin and t3 might help it along.
I suppose you could also use higher amount of ZMA, or tribulus but personally i dont think that they are that effective enough for a bridge.

The idea being that, you would keep your body from going catabolic inbetween cycles. So there is a great need for a compound that will keep the body anabolic while not hurting the HPTA axis. Any other thoughts?

 

[x_muscle]

can u give us an example of such a cycle?

i dont think your body will be in catabolic state if someone used proper PCT watched his diet and trained right

another point there are some studies that shows that small amount of androgen can be very suprisive. so how can u bridge between cycle without effects your HPTA. 10 mg of 4-ad can be very suprisive

 

[MarcusG]

So M-4OHT doesn't affect the HPTA? Or do you mean its so mildly suppressive that a person can still recover normal test levels while on it PCT??

 

[size]

The problem is "shouldnt shut down the HPTA axis or effect it" but that does not mean it will not.

I have yet to find anything that is an affordable bridge that had no effect on HPTA.


However, I would be excited if it could be used successfully in this manner.

 

[Bryan]

very interesting how what leads you to say M4OHT wont be surpressive to the HPTA? If thats the truth couldn't M4OHT be used for marathon cycles also?

 

[SlateDrake]

I have yet to find anything that is an affordable bridge that had no effect on HPTA.

size - are you referring to primo or something as far as a expensive, but effective bridge substance that doesn't shut you down?

I'm curious as I would have thought EVERYTHING shuts you down to some degree or another.

Basically, whatcha talking about man?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

IGF/GH/Slin?

 

[Chemo]

Gentlemen, this is the holy grail for medicinal application of hormone therapy: to eliminate muscle wasting while not affecting HTPA balance. It obviously has not been done yet to pharmaceutical satisfaction but that does not mean it won't work for our purposes.

I'm not advocating a bridge, but rather encourage experimentation with using it as a taper for coming off longer cycles. I believe that low dosing, just enough to ward off muscle wasting, will allow for some recovery while maintaining mass. Even if after 4 weeks of dosing recovery is at 50% (chosen at random for discussion) the momentum will have been initiated so the rest of the recovery process will be expedited that much faster. As everyone knows, the critical time for recovery is while exogenous levels are decreasing and natural levels are still suppressed. In a nutshell, the hard part is kickstarting the natural production again. If one could use M-4OHN in the single digit mg range then it should eliminate muscle wasting while allowing for a fair degree of recovery...or so my theory goes

If someone tries to research the compound in this manner I highly encourage acquisition of some HCG as well as the traditional PCT ancillaries.

Chemo

 

[Sldge]

4OHT is belived to not suppress natural test, ( i dont know this for sure, as I didnt get blood work done) and it may actually help in recovering from longer cycles.
PCT does not keep you anabolic, clomid/nolva and hcg are not anabolic. so when you start PCT, you are trying to boost natural test levels and some new studies show it may take 8 weeks (depending on cycle length) to restart. 8 weeks of clomid/nolva/hcg before test levels are up and running again is a long time of doing less during workouts, being very careful with diet, etc.
if there is a compound that can be used in very small amounts, that wont suppress totaly (just to be safe) we may be able to cut these times in half. M4OHT may work just because it isnt suppossed to supress as much as other compound do, we just havent had a chance to test it out yet.
Chemo, how well does M4OHT bind to the receptor? I would think in order for a small amount to be used, without effecting HPTA, it would need to bind pretty well.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

4OHT will most certainly suppress in the right doses.

Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.

Davies JH, Shearer RJ, Rowlands MG, Poon GK, Houghton J, Jarman M, Dowsett M.

Department of Urology, St. Georges Hospital, London, England, UK.

The steroidal aromatase inhibitor, 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4OHA) and its metabolites, 4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT), 3 beta,17-dihydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-4-one (metabolite A) and 3 alpha, 17-dihydroxy-5 beta-androstan-4-one (metabolite B) were evaluated as inhibitors of the human prostatic 5 alpha-reductase enzyme and for binding to the rat prostatic androgen receptor. 4OHA and 4OHT were weak inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase with IC50 values of 15-29 microM. Metabolites A and B had no significant inhibitory activity. 4OHA and metabolites A and B bound weakly to the androgen receptor. The binding affinities (RBA) relative to mibolerone (RBA = 100) were 0.085, 0.485 and 0.016, respectively. However, 4OHT (RBA = 75) was a more potent binder than the endogenous androgen 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (RBA = 66). The ability of these metabolites, in particular 4OHT, to bind to the androgen receptor may explain the in vivo androgenic activity of 4OHA.

Now even if you use a low dose and don't have much androgenic activity, which in turn won't cause significant amount of suppression, it also won't be that anabolic/androgenic enough to cause any significany effect on muscle growth/wasting.

Use IGF-1. It solves all these problems

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Also remember that when using this, your already suppressed so the amount needed to keepo\ you there will probably be even smaller. Most studies showing mild suppression were on people that had normal test levels, not suppressed ones.

 

[SlateDrake]

Use IGF-1. It solves all these problems

Is this what you were referring to in another thread, about taking yourself to the next level with subq injects?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I have no recollection of that.

 

[size]

Also remember that when using this, your already suppressed so the amount needed to keep you there will probably be even smaller. Most studies showing mild suppression were on people that had normal test levels, not suppressed ones.

Exactly.
I think also that this could lead to even longer term HPTA suppression as your body is trying to rebound by following PCT, but you keep adding a substance that holds you back. Ultimately, when you come completely off PCT and 4OHT, it is possbily that you may have only recovered, say 75%, instead of 100%. This reduction may be more of a problem than had you just recovered in the typical manner. However, I guess weekly blood work would be a very interesting event while attempting this.

I think somebody should be the guinea pig.




IGF/GH/Slin?-- I choose not to use these .

 

[N4cer]

I agree with Bobo on this. Actually, here's a theory for PCT that I REALLY like. And LA is a VERY knowledgable bro when it comes to IGF.

http://www.beyondmass.com/aboveandbeyond/jmo.html

 

[Milo Hobgoblin]

...

hmmm comment on "affordable"

Lets say theroretically I could get my hands on Oxandrolone... would that be a good bridge?

 

[size]

Re: ...

hmmm comment on "affordable"

Lets say theroretically I could get my hands on Oxandrolone... would that be a good bridge?

No. oxandrolone is not a good bridge.

 

[Sldge]

remember also we were leaning more towards M4OHT, which would allow for a smaller dose. the idea being that 2-5mg M4OHT per day along with regular PCT therapy would help restore levels to normal, while not allowing the body to go catabolic through PCT.

 

[size]

the idea being that 2-5mg M4OHT per day along with regular PCT therapy would help restore levels to normal, while not allowing the body to go catabolic through PCT.

I admit I am cynical on the matter, but this sure would be nice.

 

[Sldge]

it sure would, it is definetly worth a test run though.

 

[maggmaster]

OOH OOH Ill test Ill test

 

[riskarb]

Starting a new thread, with the M4OHT coming out soon there are some real good possibilites of bridging between cycles with anabic compounds that shouldnt shut down the HPTA axis or effect it. GH or IGF1 with insulin and t3 might help it along.
I suppose you could also use higher amount of ZMA, or tribulus but personally i dont think that they are that effective enough for a bridge.

The idea being that, you would keep your body from going catabolic inbetween cycles. So there is a great need for a compound that will keep the body anabolic while not hurting the HPTA axis. Any other thoughts?

I like the idea of upping ZMA... best bet would be 4IUs daily of rhGH, the sh*t is amazing when stacked with M1T, amazing results.

arb.

 

[supersoldier]

I'm your huckleberry How about I kill two birds with one stone. Run transdermal 4AD for 14 weeks, weeks 1-2 with 10mg M1t, weeks 5-6 with 10mg M1t and NAC and Milk Thistle, weeks 9-10 20mg M1t, weeks 13-14 20mg M1t with NAC and Milk Thistle. That should be incredibly suppressive for a long time. Then for PCT Nolva at 60mg until LH is above 0.00 (check out my other thread), then the standard 40,30,20,10 mg nolva protocol, and however many mgs decided by the higher powers (Chemo and Designer) of M4OHT the whole time until (hopefully) LH is fully recovered. I should have a baseline number in about a week or a week and a half (I'll be off nolva in 4 days, and I want to give it about a week after that). I will do lab testing on Fridays and Mondays throughout the cycle for liver enzymes, Testosterone, Estradiol, LH, FSH, PSA, Prolactin, Progesterone, Cholesterol, Triglycerides, CBC, and whatever else you guys can think of. This way I can find out how bad the M1t is for your liver at two different doses, find out if Milk Thistle and NAC really work for protection, and give the whole Bridge theory a try. Oops, that's three birds with one stone. I'll be fucking HUGE too

 

[bioman]

I doubt the validity of the liver portion of your study as you wouldn't be able to discern whether elevated liver values were the result of differing doses or simply longer duration of consumption. In other words, too many variables.

It would be interesting to test the bridge hypothesis although my money is on poor recovery and no significant increase in anabolism during PCT. I think dosing with any androgen, even at very low doses, will further desensitize the HPTA to LH. As the recently posted article on Nolva pointed out, Nolva is one of the few known substances that re-sensitize the HPTA to FSH and LH.

I think this points out the obvious that continued, unabated androgen use leads to lowering the efficacy of these compounds in the body. I think that's the real glory of M1T...since the gains come so fast one can get off cycle faster and have a much easier recovery. But thats just my humble opinion.

 

[size]

Go for it supersoldier.

 

[Sldge]

sounds good to me, as soon as i get the M4OHT i will get you a sample to try it out.

 

[size]

sounds good to me, as soon as i get the M4OHT i will get you a sample to try it out.

Now supersoldier has no choice.

 

[supersoldier]

If the bridge theory doesn't work, the worst case scenario is that you end up with a longer cycle, or a longer time with HPTA shutdown (in my case 20 weeks total if I add 6 weeks M4OHT use to my 14 week cycle). I think it has a valid theory and very well might work, and if it doesn't I don't think I'll have too much trouble recovering from 20 weeks of androgen use. If it does work then it could totally change the whole process of post cycle recovery and allow a lot of people to keep a lot more muscle. BTW, scratch the transdermal 4AD, I'm gonna pop my pinning cherry and run test prop.

 

[Sldge]

i am going to try it out as well, i have to test out a few different orals anyway, so i would do probably 3-4, 4 mini cycles. ill start m4oht with pct in between the 3 and 4 mini. this way we can have more then one tester.

 

[bioman]

Sounds cool!

If you're right you'll lead PH usage down a completely different road. If you're wrong..well you'll have small nuts for awhile. Either way it will help to test a new hypothesis.

 

[candle25]

Very interesting. I can't wait to hear the outcome. Good luck bro's!

 

[Flash]

IMO, the hydroxy's (4OHT/4OHN) will be similair in effect to ox or winny because of the concetrated electron density and the 5 membered ring formed from H-bonding betweeen the enol and the ketone.

Dont get me wrong, Im looking forward to 4OHT. I LOVE winny, and Im leaning toward thinking its effects are going to be similair. When will this stuf be available?

 

[mr.zone]

IGF/GH/Slin?

I don't think its a good idea to use IGF1 and GH in the same cycle. gh increases igf as it is . If you take both at the same time you might run into more sides then expected. one or the other with slin is the way to go

 

[Puerto Rico]

i am going to try it out as well, i have to test out a few different orals anyway, so i would do probably 3-4, 4 mini cycles. ill start m4oht with pct in between the 3 and 4 mini. this way we can have more then one tester.

hey gracias a got my order today ...by the way keep informed about this brige an also about M4OHN & M14ADD....and i dont see any ANTI -E on ur site it would be good to get everything at one site insted of ordering from site to site it gets to expensive ......

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I don't think its a good idea to use IGF1 and GH in the same cycle. gh increases igf as it is . If you take both at the same time you might run into more sides then expected. one or the other with slin is the way to go

Its not even in the same ballpark as exogenous IGF-1.

 

[Sldge]

I have thought about adding some anti es but at the moment I just have to many things going on right now.

 

[Lean One]

I have thought about adding some anti es but at the moment I just have to many things going on right now.

I was meaning to ask you about that. It would kick ass if you could offer ante-e's in powder form. It would be prudent to stock up on those too.

 

[chemikill]

I was meaning to ask you about that. It would kick ass if you could offer ante-e's in powder form. It would be prudent to stock up on those too.

I second that!!
-chem.

 

[Cosmo]

bump

 

[Lean One]

bump

Check out Customs' site.

 

[Sldge]

I am actually working on a brand new one, I havent decided if I will do powder only or tabs, I have to wait to find out what it costs. But the research shows it to be a very effective compound.

 

[Manu20]

Sounds good sledge...when do you expect to release it?

 

[Greenguy]

Starting a new thread, with the M4OHT coming out soon there are some real good possibilites of bridging between cycles with anabic compounds that shouldnt shut down the HPTA axis or effect it. GH or IGF1 with insulin and t3 might help it along.
I suppose you could also use higher amount of ZMA, or tribulus but personally i dont think that they are that effective enough for a bridge.

The idea being that, you would keep your body from going catabolic inbetween cycles. So there is a great need for a compound that will keep the body anabolic while not hurting the HPTA axis. Any other thoughts?

beyond the fact that I beleive any androgens taken into one's body will be suppressive to some extent, I don't think I want to take any methyls during PCT.

My liver has to rest sometime!

Greenguy

 

[Sldge]

I actualy have 4 different compounds I am going to try out. I got one it today that I will start testing on SS estradiol levels from all of the Sledge Test. I have studies on all of them and they all look promising so we will see.

Ill start a whole new thread for those tests, they have nothing to do with M4OHT.

 

[Cosmo]

4 MORE compounds! geez I can't wait to see all the new goodies, hope you can get them all out fast enough

also, does this mean m-4oht is out the window on bridging?

 

[propho]

very interesting! i was hoping someone would start working on this topic as going to the gym post cycle is depressing cuz of the strength loss..

 

[maraxus]

Bump

 

[Sldge]

Ill have the M4OHT powder in a few days, I doubt ill get to do any others.

 

[zeromagnus]

are you going to be selling the M4OHT powder then, and not send it off to be tabbed?

 

[Sldge]

yes, just powder no tabs. no oral solutions.