Orals: Lower Doses, Longer Cycles?

[HardTrainer]

I'm thinking of trying Epi @ 10mg/ED for 8-12 weeks. The reason being that the kind of typical "4 weeks on/4 weeks PCT " doesn't work that well with the kind of periodization training I do, so I'm wanting to try something new. I'm not really looking for an explosion of mass, more just a slight boost to my slow & steady strength training.

Assuming there are no good reasons why I shouldn't do this (ie health), then I think this approach might just work. Obviously 10mg of Epi would still be slighty suppressive, but presumably it would still be more anabolic than the amount of testosterone suppressed, given how anabolic epi is?

I realise most oral cycles are limited in length by the liver damage caused by methyls, but I'm guessing that one bottle of Epi taken over 12 weeks would do less damage than one taken over 4 weeks?

Obviously this is all just conjecture, I'd appreciate any useful comments/critiques/reasons why I shouldn't do this.

 

[mooch2321]

no...just...no

 

[HardTrainer]

no...just...no

...because...?

 

[BigMattTx]

I like this idea. I have sometimes wondered myself what the end result would be if some of these guys just ran a baseline dose throughout their cycles instead of ramping up to 3, 4 or 5 pills a day. Would the end results be much different?

I would like to think sides would be much more insignificant but with 8-12 weeks, they would probably show up eventually.

I am especially interested in low doses of the stronger, more side effect prone DS like 10mg of Phera or 10mg of SD for 3-4 weeks. I'm willing to bet sides would be much less severe and gains would be comparable.

 

[BigMattTx]

...because...?

Id think the biggest reason would be that you are beating up your liver and supressing test for such a long time.

 

[mooch2321]

Id think the biggest reason would be that you are beating up your liver and supressing test for such a long time.

nope...cuz 10mgs of epi wont do sh!t for ya...even over long periods of time...and it will eventually play hell on your joints...people have tried this with winny(very similar to epi) and it is not a good idea...if you insist on this i would try 10mgs of phera first...or you could make a solution from mdrol and do 5 mgs of super...but i wouldnt use epi...now on the other hand if short cycles dont fit your m.o. mabye you should think about a nice long test cycle...

 

[LilPsychotic]

I like this idea. I have sometimes wondered myself what the end result would be if some of these guys just ran a baseline dose throughout their cycles instead of ramping up to 3, 4 or 5 pills a day. Would the end results be much different?

I would like to think sides would be much more insignificant but with 8-12 weeks, they would probably show up eventually.

I am especially interested in low doses of the stronger, more side effect prone DS like 10mg of Phera or 10mg of SD for 3-4 weeks. I'm willing to bet sides would be much less severe and gains would be comparable.

Here is a thread that had a guy dosing SD @ 5mg for a few weeks with pretty good results:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/111610-superdrol-5mg-3-a.html

 

[HardTrainer]

nope...cuz 10mgs of epi wont do sh!t for ya...even over long periods of time...and it will eventually play hell on your joints...people have tried this with winny(very similar to epi) and it is not a good idea...if you insist on this i would try 10mgs of phera first...or you could make a solution from mdrol and do 5 mgs of super...but i wouldnt use epi...now on the other hand if short cycles dont fit your m.o. mabye you should think about a nice long test cycle...

Test would be ideal of course, but that's not really an option for me at the moment. You don't think 10mg of phera might too suppressive over longer periods of time...? They was my reason for thinking Epi would be a good choice: Less suppression.

 

[mooch2321]

Test would be ideal of course, but that's not really an option for me at the moment. You don't think 10mg of phera might too suppressive over longer periods of time...? They was my reason for thinking Epi would be a good choice: Less suppression.

well the working dose of phera is 30-40mgs....so is the standard dose of epi...so id say your gonna be about the same....if your going for a morning dbol type of thing i think the phera would be your best option....

 

[BigMattTx]

well the working dose of phera is 30-40mgs....so is the standard dose of epi...so id say your gonna be about the same....if your going for a morning dbol type of thing i think the phera would be your best option....

thats a pretty damn high dose of phera unless if the person is a heavy user.


Maybe look into these pulse cycles. I personally havent bought into the whole theory yet but a lot of wise members have. People are pulsing havoc for 8 weeks with reportedly little shutdown and steady gains.

 

[mooch2321]

thats a pretty damn high dose of phera unless if the person is a heavy user.


Maybe look into these pulse cycles. I personally havent bought into the whole theory yet but a lot of wise members have. People are pulsing havoc for 8 weeks with reportedly little shutdown and steady gains.

hmmm....sure

 

[HardTrainer]

Bump for more opinions.

 

[17amethyl]

i see your point, but put it this way, do u really want to do an 8-12 week pct? granted if suppression was lower than expected you could shorten pct a bit, but the length would still be a b!tch...i dno just my .02
if i were you, i would do a 4-6 with epi and some other non-methyl ph/oral steroid to complement it, dose both at lower/medium dosages...keep sides down, more prologned cycle, and gains will be easier to keep...maybe throw a good test booster like ax in week 2-3 of pct to keep gains going up well into pct...so in total, theres ur ideal length which u should continue to gain well thru pct, and if all is done right sides will be low, suppression not so bad, and liver will prob be thanking u a little more

 

[mooch2321]

i see your point, but put it this way, do u really want to do an 8-12 week pct? granted if suppression was lower than expected you could shorten pct a bit, but the length would still be a b!tch...i dno just my .02
if i were you, i would do a 4-6 with epi and some other non-methyl ph/oral steroid to complement it, dose both at lower/medium dosages...keep sides down, more prologned cycle, and gains will be easier to keep...maybe throw a good test booster like ax in week 2-3 of pct to keep gains going up well into pct...so in total, theres ur ideal length which u should continue to gain well thru pct, and if all is done right sides will be low, suppression not so bad, and liver will prob be thanking u a little more

why on earth would he need a pct that is 12 weeks long?
and have you ever actually run anything....i would be very suprised to see someone keep gaining thru their pct....mabye hold onto gains with some natty anabolic...but keep gaining?....thats kind of a stretch...

edit: sorry just reread that...didnt mean to be so condescending....but you get my drift right?

 

[UnrealMachine]

With orals the basic principle of lowering the dose and extending the cycle is facilitated with pulsing. I think that is the best way to do it, but 6-8 weeks maybe 10 depending on the compound you are using. 8 weeks with Epi/Havoc is ideal IMO maybe 5-6 on Superdrol.

Running everyday means an even lower dose and as Mooch pointed out doses that low suck, it's not enough.

 

[mooch2321]

i dunno...to me a pulse just sounds like a great way to get gyno...this is one thing i can honestly say i will never do....

 

[UnrealMachine]

I ran Epi straight and pulsed. Either way my gains were't really there cuz of my crappy response to epi, but i do get very pronounced anabolic effects like terrific pumps and vascularity and muscular hardness.

Pulsing 40mg and running 40mg straight was very little difference, both ways i felt hard veiny and jacked. No emotional roller coaster no gyno no shot libido. Only difference was with pulsing i went 8 weeks and felt less shutdown, not that the shutdown with Epi is much though.

 

[Sc0tty]

I ran epi for 8 weeks and I'm still alive. Personally, I think the liver toxicity of these products are over-hyped. As far as I can remember:

Weeks 1-3: 30mg ED
Weeks 4-6: 40mg ED
Weeks 7-8: 50mg ED

 

[mooch2321]

I ran epi for 8 weeks and I'm still alive. Personally, I think the liver toxicity of these products are over-hyped. As far as I can remember:

Weeks 1-3: 30mg ED
Weeks 4-6: 40mg ED
Weeks 7-8: 50mg ED

good thinking

 

[17amethyl]

why on earth would he need a pct that is 12 weeks long?
and have you ever actually run anything....i would be very suprised to see someone keep gaining thru their pct....mabye hold onto gains with some natty anabolic...but keep gaining?....thats kind of a stretch...

edit: sorry just reread that...didnt mean to be so condescending....but you get my drift right?

no worries, but im just curious what u think an appropriate pct would be for a 12 week cycle, where your own hormones would be supressed for this extended period? (all under the impression that you pct should typically mimic the length of the actual cycle)

ive never run an oral cycle this length, and if u need to know, im not new to the game
and i guess im suprised that you have never heard of people experiencing gains into a well-structured pct...a few searches in some of the forums here might suprise you

 

[mooch2321]

this would be the same concept as running a pct for an injectable cycle of the same length...a 4 week pct consisting of nolva and clomid would suffice....theres no real need for more...and let me rephrase what i said...i have heard of people claiming to make gains throughout pct...but i dont believe it....whithout pictures it never happened....

 

[HardTrainer]

I ran epi for 8 weeks and I'm still alive. Personally, I think the liver toxicity of these products are over-hyped. As far as I can remember:

Weeks 1-3: 30mg ED
Weeks 4-6: 40mg ED
Weeks 7-8: 50mg ED

What were the sides like after 8-weeks? I got clicky joints from 6-bromo which makes me think I might be prone to joint issues on epi.

 

[pistonpump]

read the link lilpsychotic posted, i take it you didnt.

 

[HardTrainer]

read the link lilpsychotic posted, i take it you didnt.

Actually it was your posts in that thread that got me thinking about the idea in first place (if you look closely you'll see I actually made a post on page 1 of that thread). But I though it might be worth opening the idea up in a thread of it's own, as the other thread was mainly about short/low dose superdrol cycles, and the thread seemed to have got lost and died anyway.

How's it going with the epi anyway? Any joint/low estrogen problems?

 

[pistonpump]

Actually it was your posts in that thread that got me thinking about the idea in first place (if you look closely you'll see I actually made a post on page 1 of that thread). But I though it might be worth opening the idea up in a thread of it's own, as the other thread was mainly about short/low dose superdrol cycles, and the thread seemed to have got lost and died anyway.

How's it going with the epi anyway? Any joint/low estrogen problems?

i see. well i decided to start a cycle, im in week 3 off a full cycle now. I feel the epi helped gains very slightly and sides were non exsistant. I had good libido and didnt feel it was stressing me out at all, i dont think it suppressed me either but i dont have blood tests to prove that. Was it worth it? not sure i dont think i ran it long enough. I was starting to try out 20mg but decided to run a full cycle instead, im still with the 10mg epi tho. Gonna do that thru the whole pp/sd bridge cycle. I was having problems with my left knee but it got alot better once i got some joint support (schiff move free)

 

[Moyer]

I think the real argument against long/low dose cycles is not toxicity. My hypothesis is that you will get shutdown. Maybe not the kind of hard shutdown that's very tough to bounce back from, but shutdown none the less. Using a low dose of something like EPI that isn't very androgenic, when your body stops producing test, you will lose your libido and probably have other sides too. You'll get slower, easier to keep gains more like an injectable cycle, but you won't have test to cover up some of the sides. Where's old school 4AD when you need it? I suppose you could try transdermal DHEA along with the epi, but you'd probably want to run an AI with it.

This is purely a guess though. I would still like to see someone try it. I think gains would be alright and it would be a good experiment.

Your other option, one that I'm considering, is running several 2 week cycles, taking 2-3 weeks off in between. 5-10mg Superdrol would probably be the best option, or anything that's known to kick in fast.

The third alternative to 4wk cycles is 6-8wks with conservative dosing. Like 20mg Epi for 6-8wks. These are a definite improvement over 40mg for 4wks IMO.

 

[Moyer]

Man I wish bulk 4AD powder was still cheap as dirt in the US. I'd love to try something like 25mg Hdrol + 1g 4AD for 10 weeks.

 

[HardTrainer]

Man I wish bulk 4AD powder was still cheap as dirt in the US. I'd love to try something like 25mg Hdrol + 1g 4AD for 10 weeks.

Transdermal 4AD would be the answer to all my prayers... *sigh* if only.

 

[pistonpump]

what would be the point with the 4ad? It would shut you down fast seeing how it acts like test. Epi at low dose never messed with libido for me, i believe i was one of the first if not the first here to dose at 10mg ed for long periods. Too bad. i didnt make a log or get bloodwork. Dr. D has stated that epi boosts LH in low doses, i believe it considering it is derived from a SERM and SERMs generally do this. That was another reason i felt epi was a good choice along with other reasons. 10mg superdrol?...now you are talking regular cycle, thats a potent dose already.