milk thistle and liver support

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    milk thistle and liver support


    Hello,
    When on M1t, it is recomended that milk thistle and other forms of liver support be used.

    But does this counteract some of the effects of the prohormones?
    Probably not the methyl 1T.

    But can this cause the liver to breakdown the 4-ad and other PH's being used.

    Just wonderin'

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    May Alter It A Little but Better Safe Than Sorry!!
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    Milk Thistle is not meant to alter the way in which the liver works, it is meant to help it heal and stay at 100% functionality. It should not cause any loss of effectiveness with any steroidal compound or PH.

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    How much milk thistle should be used while on M1T?
    And how much/how long should milk thistle be used after a M1T cylce?
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    But if the liver is working better due to the liver support we provide, it will be more efficient at breaking down these susbstances. Right?
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    Originally posted by ak-47
    But if the liver is working better due to the liver support we provide, it will be more efficient at breaking down these susbstances. Right?
    I don't think that is the case but even if it is I would rather be safe than sorry later because I didn't take any precautions in protecting the only liver that I will ever have.
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    This was taken from bigcats prohormone article on bb.com.

    Take care to note that increasing liver protection also increases liver function. That means in return it will stop more exogenous substances introduced to the body. In simpler terms, by protecting your liver you also decrease the chance of a high prohormone conversion orally. Its usually advised, if you're worried about your liver, to use small cycles of no more than 6 weeks, and to use liver protectors AFTER your cycle is over to decrease hepatoxicity. Not during your cycle

    you can find the article here.
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm
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    That's actually the one point of that Big Cat Article I just can't agree with. If an oral PH only has 3-5% bioavailibility then you just live with that or you chose a better PH like M1T. I do not think it is advisable to advocate weakening your liver's response so you can get better PH bioavailibility. That's kind of irresponsible.

    All in all it's not that much of an issue as PH normally don't impact the liver that much (although M1T is likely the most impactful). I just don't like the wording of that portion of the article. Taking liver protection is "probably" a good idea but honestly we don't have much data one way or the other.

    We really need to invite a good endocrinologist on to these boards to answer our questions, lol.
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    Exactly.... PH bioavaliability or a functional liver. I think the "decrease" in response due to taking a liver support can be more attributed to the fact that the liver's ability to deactivate a compound does not decrease as the cycle progresses. When not supported, the liver will be less effective at deactivating, hence a higher bioavaliability and better gains, but at what cost?

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    Well,
    You can bet your ass i'll be taking my milk thistle on my M1t cycle.

    Thanks for the answers so far.

    I was just wonderin'
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    P.S. I take 1g daily when on any cycle that has any liver toxicity issues. I also avoid alcohol (flask filled with flat diet coke is a good thing ).

    ManBeast
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    So i take It you Drink alot of Diet Coke!!
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    NAC is a better liver aid in my opinion than milk thistle.

    i only use milk thistle while not using anabolics but if you are overly concerned I would take it whenever you like for peace of mind.
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    Originally posted by size
    NAC is a better liver aid in my opinion than milk thistle.

    i only use milk thistle while not using anabolics but if you are overly concerned I would take it whenever you like for peace of mind.

    What is everyone elses thought on this. I am considering milk thistle and NAC. Should I just use both.
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    Originally posted by juststarting



    What is everyone elses thought on this. I am considering milk thistle and NAC. Should I just use both.
    You could, and it's wise to do so IMO. They're not expensive supps either so what the heck
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    Originally posted by juststarting



    What is everyone elses thought on this. I am considering milk thistle and NAC. Should I just use both.
    I agree with Iron Warrior. Milk thistle and NAC support the liver in different ways, so it seems that using them together would be better.
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    what kind of Doses on the Milt Thistle and NAC?
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    Found this at Anabolex for you guys.

    -1- Protecting the Liver
    Here are some supplements that can help to protect the liver when taking oral anabolic steroids (or any liver-toxic drugs):
    -Standardized silymarin : 160 mg + 3x/day
    - Evening primrose oil : 1300 mg 2x/day
    - Alpha lipoic acid : 100 to 200 mg 3x/day
    - Glycyrrhizinate Forte : 1 capsule 3x/day
    - N-acetyl cysteine : 600 mg 3x/day
    - Glutamine powder : 2g to 12g 3x/day(1 heaping teaspoon = 4 g, 1 hpg tablespoon = 12gr)
    - Omega 3 fatty acids: 2 to 3 capsules 3x/day
    - Liverite : 2 tablets two to three times a day
    - Lung Tan Xie Gan Chinese herb formula - as directed
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -2-

    1. ALA- great supplement for helping liver function; medical reports proving its success. dosages vary, I say 1gram when on.
    2.L-glutathione- a natural protein that protects cells from free radicals; some say it is ineffective orally but it is cheap
    3.Milk Thistle (silymarin)- great herbal supplement for helping restore healthy liver func; can be taken year round
    4.Vitamin C and E- helpful antioxidants
    5.Water- drink plently of water it helps flush your system
    6.Cranberry Extract or juice
    7.Do not drink alcohol
    8.Liv52
    9.tyler liver detox
    10.NAC
    11.primrose oil
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    -3- Protecting your liver - naturally
    A few ideas that mey help to protect your Liver.Found this on the web

    Here are a few natural supplements (and a little about each) that can greatly aid the liver and kindeys while on a cycle:

    1.Water: Pure water is the most important 1.5-2 gallons daily is a must while on a cycle!!!!!!!!

    2. Milk thistle:
    Effective dose 500mg-1000mg divided into equal doses twice daily
    Info
    This plant is native to the Mediterranean and grows wild throughout Europe, North America and Australia. Milk Thistle has been used in Europe as a remedy for liver problems for thousands of years. Its use was recorded in the first century (AD 23-79), noting that the plant was excellent for protecting the liver. Early Christian tradition dedicated milk thistle to Mary, calling it Marian thistle. In the 19th century the Eclectics used the herb for varicose veins, menstrual difficulty, and congestion in the liver, spleen and kidneys. Milk thistle has also been taken to increase breast-milk production, stimulate the secretion of bile, and as a treatment for depression.
    Milk thistle nutritionally supports the liver's ability to maintain normal liver function. It has shown positive effects in treating nearly every known form of liver disease, including cirrhosis, hepatitis, necroses, and liver damage due to drug and alcohol abuse. Milk thistle works due to its ability to inhibit the factors responsible for liver damage, coupled with the fact it stimulates production of new liver cells to replace old damaged ones.
    Milk thistle has been proven to protect the liver from damage. The detrimental effects of environmental toxins, alcohol, drugs and chemotherapy may be countered with this valuable herb. The active chemical component in the herb is silybin, which functions as an antioxidant and is one of the most potent liver protective agents known. Clinical trials have proven silybin to be effective in treating chronic liver diseases and in protecting the liver from toxic chemicals. An injection of silybin is a proven antidote for poisoning with the Deathcap mushroom (Amanita phalloides).

    Evening Primrose Oil
    this one works great when combined with Milk thistle
    Effective dose: 1000mg
    VALUABLE SOURCE OF OMEGA 6 FATTY ACIDS
    This natural vegetable oil is extracted from the invaluable Evening Primrose plant. This exceptional nutritional supplement provides linoleic acid, gamma-linoleic acid (GLA) and two Omega 6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs).
    Your body requires significant amounts of these fatty acids for good health.
    HELPS FORM PROSTAGLANDINS
    These hormone-like compounds help reduce inflammation in the joints and also regulate blood vessels, salt and water balance, insulin secretion, nerve function and natural resistance. Evening Primrose Oil helps keep the skin, hair and nails healthy and protects the liver from toxins.

    3.Cranberry Extract:
    Effective Dose: 800mg-1600mg daily in 2-4 even doses
    Info:
    Historical or traditional use (may or may not be supported by scientific studies): Cranberry has been used to prevent kidney stones and “bladder gravel” as well as to remove toxins from the blood. Cranberry has long been recommended for persons with recurrent urinary tract infections (UTIs).
    Active constituents: Cranberry prevents E. coli, the most common cause of UTIs and recurrent UTIs, from adhering to the cells lining the wall of the bladder. This antiadherence action renders the bacteria harmless in the urinary tract.1 2 Recently, the proanthocyanidins in the berry were shown to have this antiadherence action.3 Cranberry has been shown to reduce bacteria levels in the urinary bladders of older women significantly better than placebo, which may help to prevent future infections.4 Other preliminary studies in humans suggest cranberry can help people with urostomies and enterocystoplasties to keep them clear of mucus buildup.

    Dandelion powder:
    Effective Dose 1000mg-3000mg
    Among herbalists dandelion is classified as a bitter herb with cool energy. It is valued mostly for its benefits for the urinary and glandular systems and as a liver and kidney tonic. Herbalists turn to dandelion for its ability to enhance the efficiency of the body's eliminative and detoxifying functions. It is a mild laxative and diuretic. It has traditionally been used as a tonic, blood purifier, for constipation, inflammatory skin conditions, joint pain, eczema and liver dysfunction, including liver conditions such as hepatitis and jaundice. As a tonic dandelion strengthens the kidneys and may be helpful for conditions such as water retention and high blood pressure. It does not deplete the body of potassium like many diuretics.
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    what about raising the potassium intake......would that help?
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    thanks for the info!!
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    thanks NPur...that helps
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    Awsome post NPursuit...maybe sticky this cuz the "liver protection" questions are everywhere on these boards
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    NAC is the better choice as it helps restore glutathione levels in the liver.
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    Astaxanthin is also great for liver health.
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    I know it has been stated here before but I think reported liver damage is blow out of proportion.

    No one really knows unless they have blood work done, before, during, and after usage. Saying "my liver aches" just does not fly with me. There are signs of unhealthy liver function that do appear. If you have ever seen a jaundiced individual you will know exactly what I mean.

    There are many over the counter meds that people take on a daily basis that tear up your liver as well. Just think about all the toxins you take in daily.
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    Originally posted by size


    No one really knows unless they have blood work done, before, during, and after usage. Saying "my liver aches" just does not fly with me.
    Espceically when they say "My lower back hurts on the right side, I think its my liver"


    Anatomy chart please...
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    Man, that was great info NPursuit. That could be a valuable sticky for our members
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    If you guys really want this stickied I'll rewrite and compile everyone else's input into one long post.
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    Originally posted by NPursuit
    If you guys really want this stickied I'll rewrite and compile everyone else's input into one long post.
    thatd be great
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    Originally posted by NPursuit
    If you guys really want this stickied I'll rewrite and compile everyone else's input into one long post.
    This thread is horrible and piled with misinformation. Milk thistle? WTF? Even if people are too lazy to leave the site there is some information in the articles section relating to how milk thistle has never been accurately proven to be a liver protectant in many studies.

    I'm not gonna refute everything in N Pursuits post, but NAC looks the most promising for actually doing anyhting.
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    Originally posted by ex_banana-eater


    This thread is horrible and piled with misinformation. Milk thistle? WTF? Even if people are too lazy to leave the site there is some information in the articles section relating to how milk thistle has never been accurately proven to be a liver protectant in many studies.

    I'm not gonna refute everything in N Pursuits post, but NAC looks the most promising for actually doing anyhting.
    I agree that NAC looks like the best choice.  Feel free to write up some info then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by size
    I know it has been stated here before but I think reported liver damage is blow out of proportion.

    No one really knows unless they have blood work done, before, during, and after usage. Saying "my liver aches" just does not fly with me. There are signs of unhealthy liver function that do appear. If you have ever seen a jaundiced individual you will know exactly what I mean.

    There are many over the counter meds that people take on a daily basis that tear up your liver as well. Just think about all the toxins you take in daily.

    That's a good point. What exactly about ph's or m1t for that matter make it more liver toxic than many other prescription medications or other toxins we take in daily?
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