Deca cycle and no HCG

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    Deca cycle and no HCG


    Im running a test/deca cycle.

    I have some nolvadex clomid and arimidex.

    Ive been trying to get some HCG but here in Oz stuff like that is extremely hard to get and I prob wont be able to get any.

    What are peoples opinions, what else could I take to help my PCT?

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    try to get some proviron to run on cycle
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    i dont think hell need the proviron, if hes using test, most likely his libido will be up there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyper24 View Post

    What are peoples opinions, what else could I take to help my PCT?
    My opinion is to try to get some and run during cycle, not PC. If you don't let yourself get suppressed, it will be way easier to recover.
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    if i were to do hcg it would be post cycle not on cycle.
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    30-40mcg Igf-1lr3 3x a week throughout the cycle, and 10-20mcg everyday first 2 weeks of pct.
    The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
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    Igf-1lr3 would have to come through customs, and the way Oz customs are cracking down I highly doubt it.
    Unless its not on the list on banned substances yet. But I dont think they would differ Igf-1lr3 from standard Igf-1 so prob no chance in getting it in.
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    what test are you using ?
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    Look into Sustain Alpha by Primordial Performance. Research shows that flavones used in the product can help keep the boys full during cycle, and I use it during pct with excellent results. Brought me back strong.
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    Run your cycle and use your clomid and nolva post cycle...thats it. Its not written anywhere in stone that Im aware of that you need hcg, and I would guess that probably less than 5% of anyone Ive ever worked with has used it and still recovered fine.

    holy
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    Yeah but I dont have alot of clomid and nolva, probaby only about 2 weeks worth. If I could get ahold of more then I wouldnt be so worried but because I dont have alot im trying to find other supps that may help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyper24 View Post
    Yeah but I dont have alot of clomid and nolva, probaby only about 2 weeks worth. If I could get ahold of more then I wouldnt be so worried but because I dont have alot im trying to find other supps that may help.

    so then use clomid first then use nolva to finish it off, get some 6 bromo in there too and youll be golden
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    if i were to do hcg it would be post cycle not on cycle.
    This is a post from Swale who is an HRT specialist. This is a refresher for those who haven't seen it. Most guys I know follow this.


    Here is the pct protocol by Swale who is a Doctor and a HRT specialist.
    My PCT Protocol
    Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

    Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

    Here it is:

    I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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    thats a good bit of info, i don't think the arimidex is needed for low mg cycles imo
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    adex not needed for 300mg test cycles, once you get to 500 you need to add some arimidex

    now in reference to the article written, it is a very good artcle very good information, but and this is how i see it,

    using hCG because it mimics LH could desensitize the testes and cause furth damage when trying to come off cycle

    . when you use steroids you are going to be shut down and theres no point in restarting it to shut it down.

    although i like the analagy he used,
    to me its like constently turn a car on and off, youll eventually need a new starter because your wearing it out as opposed to turning it on once and keeping it running.

    and if you do use more then 500ius yes there is aromatase activity which is why when you use hCG in PCT you use something like adex which will block negative feedback and prevent hypogonadism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    using hCG because it mimics LH could desensitize the testes and cause furth damage when trying to come off cycle
    It does that when you hit your body with large doses at the end of the cycle trying to get it kick started. If you go with 250iu's say twice a week, it does not do this and you don't get the total shutdown like you would otherwise, and you are up and running twice as fast and gains are easier to keep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dg806 View Post
    It does that when you hit your body with large doses at the end of the cycle trying to get it kick started. If you go with 250iu's say twice a week, it does not do this and you don't get the total shutdown like you would otherwise, and you are up and running twice as fast and gains are easier to keep.
    hCg wont cause further shut down if you use it with Adex and control the aromatizing to estroidal.

    not to mention 2-3 times a week, can desensitize you testie, over loading it for a total of 5 times per cycle, is quite different then 32 times in a 16 week cycle
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    I gotta agree with crazyfool here...I just dont see how the signal to the testes isnt going to become disrupted after using hcg for a long cycle. Swale certainly has more experience in this area than I do, but logically it doesnt make sense, so Im having a hard time wrapping my brain around it.

    holy
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    hCg wont cause further shut down if you use it with Adex and control the aromatizing to estroidal.

    not to mention 2-3 times a week, can desensitize you testie, over loading it for a total of 5 times per cycle, is quite different then 32 times in a 16 week cycle
    You only desensitize testes with amounts of say 5000iu's, which is what you do at the end of a cycle. Small amounts of 250-500iu's will not do this. This is the whole point. When you start pct, the testes are willing and ready to start production of test again.
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    My New HCG Protocol Paper
    This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:

    AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

    By John Crisler, DO

    In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

    Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

    So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
    testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

    But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

    It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

    In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

    I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

    Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

    While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

    Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

    FYI, swale is AKA crisler
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    Quote Originally Posted by dg806 View Post
    You only desensitize testes with amounts of say 5000iu's, which is what you do at the end of a cycle. Small amounts of 250-500iu's will not do this. This is the whole point. When you start pct, the testes are willing and ready to start production of test again.

    you dont know that for sure,.... it seems like you arent even too savy on hCG PCT,

    no one does 5000ius of hCG at one time for PCT

    1500-2000ius is plenty, and its every 3rd day, for a total of 5 shots.

    your testes will not forget how to make testosterone.
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    William Llewellyn wrote an article entitled Understanding Post Cycle T recovery. He suggest running 5000iu's, up to 7500iu's per week. And yes I have seen some recommend the first shot of PCT being 5000. I would not do it. I have personally seen too many guys have better success running small amounts starting around the 3rd or 4th week of a cycle. Read up on supersoldiers 4ad cyp thread here where he talks about how good small doses of hcg did him on his cycle.
    Every 3rd day for 5 shots????? If you do e3d, you would only get two shots per week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dg806 View Post
    William Llewellyn wrote an article entitled Understanding Post Cycle T recovery. He suggest running 5000iu's, up to 7500iu's per week. And yes I have seen some recommend the first shot of PCT being 5000. I would not do it. I have personally seen too many guys have better success running small amounts starting around the 3rd or 4th week of a cycle. Read up on supersoldiers 4ad cyp thread here where he talks about how good small doses of hcg did him on his cycle.
    Every 3rd day for 5 shots????? If you do e3d, you would only get two shots per week.
    yea and on the 3rd day wen hormone levels fall and receptors go back to normal you reshoot

    estrogen ****es everything up which is why people are "desensitizing" if you run something that lowers estradiol (adex), its much different in terms of desensitization.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    yea and on the 3rd day wen hormone levels fall and receptors go back to normal you reshoot

    estrogen ****es everything up which is why people are "desensitizing" if you run something that lowers estradiol (adex), its much different in terms of desensitization.
    Personally, I think guys go too overboard with trying to control estrogen. Some is good and beneficial. I'll get supersoldiers thread when I get time. He made a statement that no estrogen was bad.

    From bills article...
    Testicular Desensitization


    Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dg806 View Post
    Personally, I think guys go too overboard with trying to control estrogen. Some is good and beneficial. I'll get supersoldiers thread when I get time. He made a statement that no estrogen was bad.

    From bills article...
    Testicular Desensitization


    Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.

    as i can see that happening its evident that LH level will rise upon sudden stop.

    as far as the last sentance you have to understand that estrogen plays a big role, hence the high vs low concentrations of administration

    low dose will give a slight rise

    while high doses will give extremly high increase but will also raise estrogen 70 percent which will desensitize you and keep u further back on recovery because of the effect on the hypothalamus ect. which its why its imperative to run the ADEX or estradiol lowering AI to help your body not become desensitized, same thing with clomid, because of the estrogenic activity it shows a decrease in sensitivety, add the AI recovery is much better.
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    From Bobo......

    Increased recovery time is produced by increasing the response of Leydig cells to LH pulses. Nolva, Clomid, Letro, etc..will not do this, only HCG will (which should be used during a cycle, not after)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dg806 View Post
    From Bobo......

    Increased recovery time is produced by increasing the response of Leydig cells to LH pulses. Nolva, Clomid, Letro, etc..will not do this, only HCG will (which should be used during a cycle, not after)

    actually clomid will do that, nolva letro and adex wont.

    estrogen is what causes the negative feedback loop, and the desensitizing of GnRH ect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyper24 View Post
    Yeah but I dont have alot of clomid and nolva, probaby only about 2 weeks worth. If I could get ahold of more then I wouldnt be so worried but because I dont have alot im trying to find other supps that may help.
    Why the fuck would you start a test/deca cycle with only 2 wks of PCT available?
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Why the fuck would you start a test/deca cycle with only 2 wks of PCT available?
    technically if he has 2 weeks of each he will be ok.

    clomid first nolva after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    technically if he has 2 weeks of each he will be ok.

    clomid first nolva after.

    this could work, but for a test/deca cycle i would advise getting more
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosnmiveins View Post
    this could work, but for a test/deca cycle i would advise getting more

    if he has enough for 2 full weeks of clomid at 100mg perday
    and enough for 2 full weeks of nolva at 20mg per day, he should really be fine, what more do u want him to get,....? theres a lot of OTC that can compliment it as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    if he has enough for 2 full weeks of clomid at 100mg perday
    and enough for 2 full weeks of nolva at 20mg per day, he should really be fine, what more do u want him to get,....? theres a lot of OTC that can compliment it as well.

    id use clomid 100/50/50 then nolva 20/20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosnmiveins View Post
    id use clomid 100/50/50 then nolva 20/20
    that definetly would work better, but i dont feel its necessary to fun longer then 4 weeks.,

    and he can hop on some bromo (some bromo sups are really cheap like tdrive extreme) and use that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosnmiveins View Post
    id use clomid 100/50/50 then nolva 20/20
    Just finished sust/deca cycle using a-dex during and nolva/clomid after. No shutdown personally. As I too live in au I know how impossible it is to get items others around the globe can get easily. Don't bother suggesting the hcg because I wont be able to get it. Above quote is the best pct recommendation so far.
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    Ive got enough nolva for 2 weeks at 15mg ED, and enough Clomid for about 50mg a day for 2 weeks.
    So it feels like im just a bit under, I MIGHT possibly be able to get some more nolvadex. So if I do I should be all good.

    But apart from this what OTC cans I use? Im going to throw in some tribulus, what else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyper24 View Post
    Ive got enough nolva for 2 weeks at 15mg ED, and enough Clomid for about 50mg a day for 2 weeks.
    So it feels like im just a bit under, I MIGHT possibly be able to get some more nolvadex. So if I do I should be all good.

    But apart from this what OTC cans I use? Im going to throw in some tribulus, what else?


    Clomid 100mg day 1 and 2
    clomid 50mg day 3-empty
    Nolva 15mg perday after clomid

    you really dont need that much

    Also i would run an AI like 6bromo (50-100mg)during the nolva.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    Clomid 100mg day 1 and 2
    clomid 50mg day 3-empty
    Nolva 15mg perday after clomid

    you really dont need that much

    Also i would run an AI like 6bromo (50-100mg)during the nolva.

    you can also use Reversitol during the PCT. its an All in one
  

  
 

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