conservative oral steroid use for enhancing recovery while avoiding side effects

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    conservative oral steroid use for enhancing recovery while avoiding side effects


    I think that taking a single oral dose of prohormones and/or steroids AFTER WORKING OUT has these benefits:

    1) INCREASED oral bio-availability. After working out absortion is higher.

    2) Due to the fact that recovery needs are much higher after a hard workout, you are much more likely to get the maximum anabolic effects at that moment. Simply put: you are going to get much more recovery benefits from a 2-hour window hormone peak levels AFTER a hard workout than at any other moment of the day. Thus, the anabolic/side effects ratio is going to get higher. A narrow window (about 2 hours) of high androgen levels 4-5 days a week is not much likely to give you any undesirable androgenic side effect, but, given the fact that you maintain that high androgen levels precisely when the body needs recovery most(after working out) you are likely to be rewarded with a lot more anabolic effects than side effects.

    I'd like to know what you think about this theory.

    Thank you.

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    interesting, good post.
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    Originally posted by neurotic
    I think that taking a single oral dose of prohormones and/or steroids AFTER WORKING OUT has these benefits:

    1) INCREASED oral bio-availability. After working out absortion is higher.

    2) Due to the fact that recovery needs are much higher after a hard workout, you are much more likely to get the maximum anabolic effects at that moment. Simply put: you are going to get much more recovery benefits from a 2-hour window hormone peak levels AFTER a hard workout than at any other moment of the day. Thus, the anabolic/side effects ratio is going to get higher. A narrow window (about 2 hours) of high androgen levels 4-5 days a week is not much likely to give you any undesirable androgenic side effect, but, given the fact that you maintain that high androgen levels precisely when the body needs recovery most(after working out) you are likely to be rewarded with a lot more anabolic effects than side effects.

    I'd like to know what you think about this theory.

    Thank you.
    Your forgetting to take into account the half-lives of its metabolites which for the most part, are much longer. Most of the side effects are also metabolite related (17-methyl E2 for D-bol, Drol, MT, etc...) I've done this actually and saw no difference in spreading the dosage out, or taking it all at once (in my case pre workout).
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    Re: Re: conservative oral steroid use for enhancing recovery while avoiding side effects


    Originally posted by Bobo


    Your forgetting to take into account the half-lives of its metabolites which for the most part, are much longer. Most of the side effects are also metabolite related (17-methyl E2 for D-bol, Drol, MT, etc...) I've done this actually and saw no difference in spreading the dosage out, or taking it all at once (in my case pre workout).
    What I really meant was that if you could, let's say, just take 300 mg of 4-diol daily you'd get much more benefits if you took it after working out than at any other time of the day. Hence, the proportion between gains/side effects is higher not because you're going to get less side effects but because for the same side effects you are going to get more recovery benefits.
    Let's put it this way: when is that 300mg capsule of 4-diol be more useful : on a "normal" rest day or just after blasting your legs with an assesine session of squats and along with your protein/carbo shake?
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    Probably the rest day since more growth is done 24 hours after you exercise.

    I wished it worked that way but it doesn't. The overall growth usually stems from prolonged systematic levels being high, not just that 4-5 hour peroid, not to mention the increase in estrogen related growth and side effects from metabolites which lasts much longer in your system. Techincally you might get a little benefit but nothing you could probably tell. Like I said I've done it spreadout or all at once before workout and I saw no difference which only reinforces my belief that its a buildup of systemic levels over a longer peroid of time. Hormones tend to work that way.
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    Probably the rest day since more growth is done 24 hours after you exercise.

    I wished it worked that way but it doesn't. The overall growth usually stems from prolonged systematic levels being high, not just that 4-5 hour peroid, not to mention the increase in estrogen related growth and side effects from metabolites which lasts much longer in your system. Techincally you might get a little benefit but nothing you could probably tell. Like I said I've done it spreadout or all at once before workout and I saw no difference which only reinforces my belief that its a buildup of systemic levels over a longer peroid of time. Hormones tend to work that way.
    Your experiment doesn't tell us anything in this case. In fact I'm surprised that you didn't notice more benefits taking it spread throughout the day, for constant levels of androgens are likely to be more anabolic than just quick pulses.
    I was talking about a completely different thing, which was the fact that I believed that taking 300 mg of 4-diol, for instance, after training was likely to be more anabolic than taking it at a different time, NOT SPREAD THRU THE DAY.
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    Doesn't tell us anything? I took all of it preworkout so therefore levels would be very high during and post workout and I saw NO DIFFERENCE. The point is whether you take it spreadout or all at once at a stratagic point of time, there will be no difference. Hormones in terms of muscle growth work by systemic buildup so it doesn't matter when you take them. Ask around. Ask Pat, he'll tell you the same. THis whole issue was already brought up with M1T.
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    Doesn't tell us anything? I took all of it preworkout so therefore levels would be very high during and post workout and I saw NO DIFFERENCE.
    No, doesn't tell us anything. You don't seem to get the picture of what I mean. I'm not comparing "taking it evenly spread" vs "taking it all at once"; what I'm actually comparing is "taking it post-work out" vs "taking it at other time of the day" .... 1 dose all at once post workout vs 1 dose all at once at other time.
    By the way, a new idea that comes to my mind would be to like this:
    Suppose that you make an ASESSINE training once weekly... Heavy high rep squats or something like that, taking orals that day and the day after would be an extension of my idea. You would get high androgen levels the two (or rater 1 and a half) days you need them most. You are not trying to get a lot of anabolism, just speed up recovery. You can do it that way and yet get few side effects.
    This is in no way intended to compete with regular cycles, it cannot compare, regular cycles are just much more effective. This is just something that people trying to avoid steroid usage due to fear of side effects might try in order to speed up recovery. To me, this would be the blurry line standing between being natural and being "on gear".
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    Lyle McDonald proposes a similar use of oral prohormone or fast acting test in his new book Ultimate Diet 2.0. He suggests using a fast acting aid for better anabolism and gylcogen supercompensation during the carb-load/refeed.
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    Doesn't tell us anything? I took all of it preworkout so therefore levels would be very high during and post workout and I saw NO DIFFERENCE.
    Evenly spread doses (leaving aside HPTA supression and liver breakdown issues) are "per se" much more effective than taking the same dosage all at once. Then, in fact, the fact that you didn't see any difference is actually indicating us that a single dose after (before in your case) training is much more effective than that single dose at other time. Ergo my theory seems to show some promise. Shouldn't it be like that you should have seen much poorer results with your single dosage befere training strategy than with the evenly spread dosages scheme.
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    For some reason your name seems to fit you because once again you don't get the point. It does not matter when you take it! Its the systemic levels that buildup over weeks that cause growth, not a single dose here and there when you think you need it. You seem to think you can pick and choose when you want more anabolism to occur and it doesn't work that way. I don't know where you get the idea where there will be less sides too because you don't even take into account half-lives of metabolites and any aromatizing compound. You think because you get increased absortion (which doesn't mean anything since the liver will metabolize at the same rate anyway) you get less side effects? What do you base this on? It doesn't make sense at all.
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    Originally posted by neurotic


    Evenly spread doses (leaving aside HPTA supression and liver breakdown issues) are "per se" much more effective than taking the same dosage all at once.
    Your wrong. Ask anyone that has done both and they will tell what I've told you twice already, there is NO DIFFERENCE. I've seen Pat say it because he's tried it. I've Ulter say it because he's tried it. I've seen macro say it because he's tried it and I've seen ME say it because I've done it. There is a reason D-bol is the breakfast of champions. They (IFBB in the early days) took it all in the morning for years because over a 4-6 week cycle it didn't make any difference.
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    No, the increased absortion issue is just a matter of saving money, not about avoiding side effects, of course.
    I wasn't putting anabolism as a priority either but rather recovering from very intense training sessions. If today I train legs and take steroids 1,5 days I'd probably recover much sooner.
    Anyway your point of needing several weeks in order to get anabolic effects doesn't make sense either... If it was like that 2-week cycles wouldn't work.
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    2 week cycles don't start to see effects until about the first week and thats with a very fast acting compund. D-bol for me takes about a week and a half along with Winny. They also work because you are taking them everyday, not days here and there like you propose.

    Another question is why would you want suppression post workout? So basically you would inhibit natural test and only have a small amount of a poor bioavailable substance subsituting. You know estrogen and estreogen related metabolites suppress right? You seem to think the target hormone is the hormone responsible for side effects when in fact its its metabolites that due the most damage AND have a longer half life.
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    i think that he's trying to say this bobo:
    "If you take your dosage post-workout EVERY DAY, the systemic levels in the long term will be slightly higher due to better absorption, than if you take the dosages at other times throught the day."

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    I know what he's trying to say and thats why I told him that I tried it pre-workout which would actually achieve the same high levels of androgens post workout. I saw no difference.
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    well are we taking it just post work out or......?
    if so with a long enough half life this wouldn't be too bad but ...anyone who has used dbol knows after it has kicked in ( meaning the effects...after a week ) ...about an hour after taking it you get to ride the wave strength increases and energy increase.....

    to maximize recovery, levels should be up in your s¨stem to take advantage of the anabolic state.....a pre workout shake with amino's followed by good workout with a shake ( within 15 min of stopping ...this is when I hit the slin ) a 70-100grams of carbs and a 70g protein shake post workout is the best way to minimise catabolism. this is great for replenishing glycogen stores and maximisig growth......

    ok to get the effects desired one would want to take the oral pre work out.....thus getting the effect of increased strenght and anabolic effect for recovery.......( it's late and I just took a uscle relaxer hope this makes sence)
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    Originally posted by Bobo


    Your wrong. Ask anyone that has done both and they will tell what I've told you twice already, there is NO DIFFERENCE. I've seen Pat say it because he's tried it. I've Ulter say it because he's tried it. I've seen macro say it because he's tried it and I've seen ME say it because I've done it. There is a reason D-bol is the breakfast of champions. They (IFBB in the early days) took it all in the morning for years because over a 4-6 week cycle it didn't make any difference.
    Following your arguments, if one were to make an oral only steroid and/or prohormone cycle it would be best to take it all at once so that HPTA supression would be minimized, wouldn't it? I've also thought about that many times. However, I've also read that in order to get the maximum benefits out of prohormones you have to spread it throughout the day with 3-4 evenly spread doses. Is this just a myth on your opinion? If yes, great, that means I could make prohormone cycles where I could "gulp" them all before afternoon, still get the same benefits as if I took them spread throughout the day but with less HPTA supression.
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    2 week cycles don't start to see effects until about the first week and thats with a very fast acting compund. D-bol for me takes about a week and a half along with Winny. They also work because you are taking them everyday, not days here and there like you propose.

    You don't have visible effects ... but they are working and kicking in from the very first hours you begin taking it. A different issue is that you don't get visible effects, but there are effects indeed, just too small to be noticeable. Take two 1-week cycles with short acting orals and you'll see similar results as those you'd see with one 2-week cycle.


    Another question is why would you want suppression post workout? So basically you would inhibit natural test and only have a small amount of a poor bioavailable substance subsituting. You know estrogen and estreogen related metabolites suppress right? You seem to think the target hormone is the hormone responsible for side effects when in fact its its metabolites that due the most damage AND have a longer half life.
    Nope, I don't think the target hormone is full responsible for the side effects. Metabolites such as estrogen and DHT play a very important role as far as side effects are concerned. Many times though this is not so, because it's the steroid itself which is anabolic and at the same time has a very high direct binding for androgen or estrogen sensitive tissues. For instance, Anadrol-50 doesn't need to aromatize in order to produce gyno because itself has even more binding to the ER than estradiol. The same goes for the AR, where some steroids directly stimulate prostate and scalp AR without undergoing 5-alpha-reduction ... well, there are even steroids which are already 5-alpha reduced in the first place.
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    Originally posted by neurotic


    Nope, I don't think the target hormone is full responsible for the side effects. Metabolites such as estrogen and DHT play a very important role as far as side effects are concerned. Many times though this is not so, because it's the steroid itself which is anabolic and at the same time has a very high direct binding for androgen or estrogen sensitive tissues. For instance, Anadrol-50 doesn't need to aromatize in order to produce gyno because itself has even more binding to the ER than estradiol. The same goes for the AR, where some steroids directly stimulate prostate and scalp AR without undergoing 5-alpha-reduction ... well, there are even steroids which are already 5-alpha reduced in the first place.
    Anadrol works by its extreme aromatization. THe metabolite 17-methyl E2 is probably the most potent form of estrogen there is, hence the huge increases in water weight, increase RBC count, sodium retention, etc...This makes the drug extremely anabolic just by its metabolites alone. This is also the case for MT and D-bol. In those cases 17methyl E2 is more suppressive than the target hormone.
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    Originally posted by neurotic


    Following your arguments, if one were to make an oral only steroid and/or prohormone cycle it would be best to take it all at once so that HPTA supression would be minimized, wouldn't it? I've also thought about that many times. However, I've also read that in order to get the maximum benefits out of prohormones you have to spread it throughout the day with 3-4 evenly spread doses. Is this just a myth on your opinion? If yes, great, that means I could make prohormone cycles where I could "gulp" them all before afternoon, still get the same benefits as if I took them spread throughout the day but with less HPTA supression.
    People have been taking all their orals in the morning for years. I've done it both ways and for the 4th time, there is no difference. Logically your would think if they were evenly spread out it would work better and I believed that also until I tried it. It further proves to me that you can't target a specific time for increased anabolism to occur wioth hormones. Aminos are different.
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    Originally posted by buyb12
    well are we taking it just post work out or......?
    if so with a long enough half life this wouldn't be too bad but ...anyone who has used dbol knows after it has kicked in ( meaning the effects...after a week ) ...about an hour after taking it you get to ride the wave strength increases and energy increase.....

    to maximize recovery, levels should be up in your system to take advantage of the anabolic state.....a pre workout shake with amino's followed by good workout with a shake ( within 15 min of stopping ...this is when I hit the slin ) a 70-100grams of carbs and a 70g protein shake post workout is the best way to minimise catabolism. this is great for replenishing glycogen stores and maximisig growth......

    ok to get the effects desired one would want to take the oral pre work out.....thus getting the effect of increased strenght and anabolic effect for recovery.......( it's late and I just took a uscle relaxer hope this makes sence)
    Ive tried it (for the 5th time) and there is no difference. Many people havre tried and there is no difference. THe only possilbe difference is strenght increases due to possible CNS stimualtion and in that case, use Var instead. As far as increased growth to strategic times of the day, it doesn't work.
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    Originally posted by Bobo


    People have been taking all their orals in the morning for years. I've done it both ways and for the 4th time, there is no difference. Logically your would think if they were evenly spread out it would work better and I believed that also until I tried it. It further proves to me that you can't target a specific time for increased anabolism to occur wioth hormones. Aminos are different.
    Sounds quite well. Do you think that doing it that way I will really avoid HPTA supression?
    I thought that using prohormones I might do something like this:

    9:00 AM 300 mg of 1,4-andro
    12:00 AM 300 mg of 4-diol
    3:00 PM 300 mg of 1,4-andro
    END

    I spread them like that to avoid enzyme saturation because I think I might waste prohormones if I took them all at once because there might not be enough enzymes for conversion

    What do you think?
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    Originally posted by neurotic


    Sounds quite well. Do you think that doing it that way I will really avoid HPTA supression?
    I thought that using prohormones I might do something like this:

    9:00 AM 300 mg of 1,4-andro
    12:00 AM 300 mg of 4-diol
    3:00 PM 300 mg of 1,4-andro
    END

    I spread them like that to avoid enzyme saturation because I think I might waste prohormones if I took them all at once because there might not be enough enzymes for conversion

    What do you think?
    Yes PH's can have enzyme saturation but its highly unlikely since the conversion takes place in a miniscule amount of time and then its ready again. But your plan sounds good for insurance sake.

    On the suppression issue, no it doesn't avoid suppression at all. Its just easier to pop them in the morning and not worry aobut them the rest of the day.

    D-bol! Breakfast of champions!
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