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Another Hockey Thread...Ovechkin v Crosby

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    Another Hockey Thread...Ovechkin v Crosby


    One of these two is usually touted as the new face of the NHL, but who do you think is better?

    Personally, I'm a fan of Ovechkin - he's more physical, more mature, and doesn't whine when he gets hit.

    Opinions?

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    Better all-around? Probably Ovechkin.

    I won't tell you I don't hate him, because I do -- I live in Pittsburgh and am a huge pens fan. But Ovechkin's size (6'4" 230 or something) gives a him physicality that Crosby just doesn't have.

    As far as maturity goes, I think most 23 year old men are on average more mature than 21 year old men given those are pretty critical years -- especially in professional sports -- so while I don't disagree that Ovechkin may be more mature, it's not exactly a claim you can make without considering Ovechkin has several more years professional experience.

    And about the whining -- I very much disagree with saying Crosby whines whenever he gets hit -- yeah he's done it before and he can complain at times, but who doesn't get fed up occasionally? I can remember him doing that his first year, but he was 18 and had to deal with vets in their 30s giving him sh*t all the time and out to prove something because Crosby had everyone's attention.. I have no problem admitting negative qualities about players that I'm a fan of, but I've only ever seen him whine when he had a reason to. Retaliation (whether it be complaining to the ref or just punching somebody) is going to vary from player to player, and he would rather talk to the ref or his coach or teammates then punch somebody and go sit in the box.

    But they are both fantastic players (I believe they're both in the top 3 in points?) and both of them are gonna have ridiculous careers. Actually, most people compare Malkin and Ovechkin before Crosby and Ovechkin because they seem to be more similar in style -- and they hate each other (or at least they used to).
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    You bring up some excellent points. I actually brought this up because Jim Rome was talking about how Ovechkin and Crosby hate each other yesterday. But yeah, both are obviously extremely skilled. And Crosby is definitely a target, I imagine it must be pretty frustrating having a target on your back.
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    Ovechkin.... definitely a more exciting player, and seems to be having fun out there. Too many players are plain jane tote the typical hockey mentality.

    As for who is better, definitely to be determined over the next few years. Both are outstanding.

    As the NHL or an American Team owner I would definitely lean towards Ovechkin.
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    Ovechkin is the better player because of his size, passion, and natural goal scoring abilities. There hasn't been a player with his level of goal-scoring abilities since Pavel Bure in the early 90's, but he is physical like a Shanahan or Lindros in their prime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Ovechkin is the better player because of his size, passion, and natural goal scoring abilities. There hasn't been a player with his level of goal-scoring abilities since Pavel Bure in the early 90's, but he is physical like a Shanahan or Lindros in their prime.
    Agreed - Ovechkin is the total package. He can make the pretty plays but isn't afraid to get in the corners and muck it up. No cheap shots or complaints, just a tough guy and a great scorer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllMaxBrian View Post
    Agreed - Ovechkin is the total package. He can make the pretty plays but isn't afraid to get in the corners and muck it up. No cheap shots or complaints, just a tough guy and a great scorer.
    I have been trying to think of other players that have a comparable game, but no other players come to mind. He is going to be (health baring) amongst the greatest players in NHL history and probably reach 700 goals in his career. I would have to say that he is the only player that I have seen since the aforementioned Bure that could reach 70 goals in a season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I have been trying to think of other players that have a comparable game, but no other players come to mind. He is going to be (health baring) amongst the greatest players in NHL history and probably reach 700 goals in his career. I would have to say that he is the only player that I have seen since the aforementioned Bure that could reach 70 goals in a season.
    Yeah, obviously health can throw off anyone's career (a la Lindros). Ovechkin has great things ahead of him, no doubt. It's hard to think of anyone that even comes close to him in recent times, Forsberg comes to mind but he scored less and wasn't as quick.
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    OV is receiving more publicity as of late because the Penguins have had an inferior year, and OV's style of play is more exciting than that of Crosby's. Rewind to this period last year prior to Crobsy's injury, and the conversation was reversed. Often times sports debates such as this lack a sense of objective temporality - i.e., who is hot 'now' is regarded as who is hot 'permanently'.

    The fact is Crosby - aside from the last 2 meetings - has owned Ovechkin head-to-head, is a more complete playmaker and facilitator, and has played on an extremely inferior and injured team this year. Most of OV's assists are second assists due to leading the rush, and "pass in the offensive zone" is not in his vocabulary. I also remember that immediately prior to Crosby leading the league last year, Vincent Lecavalier was being touted as the world's best - how quickly we forget!

    Crosby is not as big, nor as physical, but he is better: better puck mover, better 'thinker' of the game, and makes those around him better. No matter what physical qualities OV has, he simply does not make his line-mates any better.
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    Ovechkin is by far better than crosby just a natural goal scorer...crosby is a pansy...ovechkin likes confrontation and that what the nhl is thats the name of the game crosby is in favor of the no hit league...its pansys like crosby as why they are trying to get rid of fighting
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    Quote Originally Posted by CombatTested View Post
    Ovechkin is by far better than crosby just a natural goal scorer...crosby is a pansy...ovechkin likes confrontation and that what the nhl is thats the name of the game crosby is in favor of the no hit league...its pansys like crosby as why they are trying to get rid of fighting
    One of Crosby's best assets is his physicality in the corners - his passing and playmaking abilities presuppose that; not sure your point is well made there.

    That being said, he has a tendency to whine, this is true; however, that is a character flaw, not a flaw in his game.

    Saying he avoids physical play is silly.
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    Tell you what.... after watching that series.

    In a heart beat I would take Crosby over Ovechkin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
    Tell you what.... after watching that series.

    In a heart beat I would take Crosby over Ovechkin.
    Ovie showed up; the rest of his team didn't. Semin, Kozlov, Green, and Fedorov didn't do a damn thing in the series (2 goals between them).
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    It would be ridiculous to a) blame the loss on Ovechkin; and b) credit the victory to Crosby. Both performed admirably, but Washington's poor defense and, in game seven, goaltending, were their undoing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Ovie showed up; the rest of his team didn't. Semin, Kozlov, Green, and Fedorov didn't do a damn thing in the series (2 goals between them).
    That may be true, but boiled down to its essentials, the battle between Crosby and Ovechkin boiled down to what I said above: OV is unequivocally more exciting; Crosby is unequivocally better.

    The draw to say OV is better is pretty obvious, and definitely understandable, when they are not playing side-by-side: OV's shots, his hits and his general flair shine brighter than Crosby's half-board game, his skate-to-stick shovel goals, and his ice vision; however, when placed side-by-side for seven games, Crosby's game outshone OV's in every single aspect of the game, including goal-scoring. Crosby has a multitude of skill-sets that are useful in a multitude of game scenarios, and OV very neatly and obviously showed he does not. Again, when placed side-by-side, one comes to appreciate how much more of a complete player Sid is than OV - OV's dynamism notwithstanding.

    The fact is, OV is not the complete player: he is not a great passer either in the O-Zone or through the neutral zone [taking into consideration his three assists in Game 6]; he does not play the cycle game well; he does not make others around him better; he cannot forecheck or backcheck [as well as Sid]; he makes dangerous plays, and; he was a virtual ghost in Game 7 while Sid was a dynamo. All this being said, OV does the things he is phenomenal at - hitting [even though he leaves his feet for every hit] and scoring goals - in such dynamic and memorable fashion, he has to be considered one of the best; just not, "the best".
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllMaxBrian View Post
    It would be ridiculous to a) blame the loss on Ovechkin; and b) credit the victory to Crosby. Both performed admirably, but Washington's poor defense and, in game seven, goaltending, were their undoing.
    It was two teams, certainly not two players; I could not agree more. Pittsburgh was the better team in games one through seven, and Washington barely escaped in games one, two, and six.
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    After seeing this series, I would be very interested to see what Ovechkin would be able to accomplish if he had the support that Crosby has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllMaxBrian View Post
    After seeing this series, I would be very interested to see what Ovechkin would be able to accomplish if he had the support that Crosby has.
    Well, he actually had more assists than Sid, so to say he had "less" support is neither here nor there. Each player had eight total goals, with a combined team goal count of forty-nine goals; until game seven, every game was decided by one goal. So, technically, they had almost the exact same amount of support until game seven, when Varlamov and the Caps imploded.

    OV's game is not to support others, Brian, it is to try and dominate on his own. IMO, having Semin and Greene play substantially better would not directly contribute to the assessment of OV's performance, because he is not a player who makes others around him better - this is something he has shown in each of his four years in the league. In that instance, we would merely say, "the Capitals won as a result of OV's dominance, and the help of the supporting cast". It would merely help to distribute praise slightly more evenly, and really do nothing to alter OV's individual performance. So, really, it may be better to say: "I wonder what the Capitals could have accomplished with the support the Pens have."

    I have said it a thousand times: the mundane "little things" Crosby does better than OV win games; trying to weave your way through the O-Zone on a PK leads to breakaway chances, on the other hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, he actually had more assists than Sid, so to say he had "less" support is neither here nor there. Each player had eight total goals, with a combined team goal count of forty-nine goals; until game seven, every game was decided by one goal. So, technically, they had almost the exact same amount of support until game seven, when Varlamov and the Caps imploded.

    OV's game is not to support others, Brian, it is to try and dominate on his own. IMO, having Semin and Greene play substantially better would not directly contribute to the assessment of OV's performance, because he is not a player who makes others around him better - this is something he has shown in each of his four years in the league. In that instance, we would merely say, "the Capitals won as a result of OV's dominance, and the help of the supporting cast". It would merely help to distribute praise slightly more evenly, and really do nothing to alter OV's individual performance. So, really, it may be better to say: "I wonder what the Capitals could have accomplished with the support the Pens have."

    I have said it a thousand times: the mundane "little things" Crosby does better than OV win games; trying to weave your way through the O-Zone on a PK leads to breakaway chances, on the other hand.
    Ovie really reminds me of an amalgam of Pavel Bure and Mark Messier. Wicked shot, but is very physical and a great presence on the room and on the ice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Ovie really reminds me of an amalgam of Pavel Bure and Mark Messier. Wicked shot, but is very physical and a great presence on the room and on the ice.
    I can certainly see what you are driving at. Pavel was the definition of "flash in the pan", though: only nine seasons, and only three were decent. He is just barely a point-per-game player. In fairness to him, though, his constitution being glass contributed significantly to this [all three of his 50+ goal seasons came in his three most-played seasons].

    OV has a lot of Mike Bossy in him as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I can certainly see what you are driving at. Pavel was the definition of "flash in the pan", though: only nine seasons, and only three were decent. He is just barely a point-per-game player. In fairness to him, though, his constitution being glass contributed significantly to this [all three of his 50+ goal seasons came in his three most-played seasons].

    OV has a lot of Mike Bossy in him as well.
    I wouldn't say Pavel was a flash in the pan (5 seasons with 55+ goals). A disappointing career, but only due to health issues. I can see the Bossy comparison and I hope his career isn't cut short the same way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I wouldn't say Pavel was a flash in the pan (5 seasons with 55+ goals). A disappointing career, but only due to health issues. I can see the Bossy comparison and I hope his career isn't cut short the same way.
    No, you are totally right: like a moron I forgot to count Bure's pre-lockout 60 goal seasons. He actually went 60, 60, 51, 58, 59. (You have to love HockeyDB.)

    My sentiment that Crosby is better notwithstanding, I think OV will be an elite player in the league with a considerable amount of longevity. He has only missed a total of four games in four years, pretty damn incredible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    No, you are totally right: like a moron I forgot to count Bure's pre-lockout 60 goal seasons. He actually went 60, 60, 51, 58, 59. (You have to love HockeyDB.)

    My sentiment that Crosby is better notwithstanding, I think OV will be an elite player in the league with a considerable amount of longevity. He has only missed a total of four games in four years, pretty damn incredible.
    I think 2 of those games were bereavement as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Ovie showed up; the rest of his team didn't. Semin, Kozlov, Green, and Fedorov didn't do a damn thing in the series (2 goals between them).
    Ovi didn't show up for a couple of games. And his lack of presence on the ice in the defensive end is astounding. Unless there is some offensive play a brewing he is just cruising around.

    Crosby was out there in both end of the rinks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllMaxBrian View Post
    It would be ridiculous to a) blame the loss on Ovechkin; and b) credit the victory to Crosby. Both performed admirably, but Washington's poor defense and, in game seven, goaltending, were their undoing.
    I am not blaming Ovechkin for the loss, nor am I giving credit to Crosby. However there was a noticable difference, in both ends of the rink in the way they played.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllMaxBrian View Post
    After seeing this series, I would be very interested to see what Ovechkin would be able to accomplish if he had the support that Crosby has.
    I think that is a little bit of stretch considering over an 82 game season, they finished 3rd in the eastern conference. Washington is a very solid team who needs to mature a little with some post-season experience. You have to remember Varlamov is what 21 years old?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I can certainly see what you are driving at. Pavel was the definition of "flash in the pan", though: only nine seasons, and only three were decent. He is just barely a point-per-game player. In fairness to him, though, his constitution being glass contributed significantly to this [all three of his 50+ goal seasons came in his three most-played seasons].

    OV has a lot of Mike Bossy in him as well.
    And if I remember correctly, they were all contract seasons.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post

    My sentiment that Crosby is better notwithstanding, I think OV will be an elite player in the league with a considerable amount of longevity. He has only missed a total of four games in four years, pretty damn incredible.
    Absolutely OV will be an elite player out there, he is phenomanal no doubt. However I have concerns with his longevity, given his playing style.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
    And if I remember correctly, they were all contract seasons.....
    Not quite.
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    My Bad I thought Bure seemed to have his best seasons leading into contract negotiations.

    Just trying to recollect that time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
    My Bad I thought Bure seemed to have his best seasons leading into contract negotiations.

    Just trying to recollect that time.
    He would string together fantastic seasons. His issue was never motivation, but health. I was a huge Pavel Bure fan back in the day, but his career was horribly dogged by knee problems.
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    Yeah he missed a couple of years due to knee reconstruction.

    Then held out for half a season when he didn't want to play with Vancouver anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    He would string together fantastic seasons. His issue was never motivation, but health. I was a huge Pavel Bure fan back in the day, but his career was horribly dogged by knee problems.
    In fairness, one of his best seasons in Van., was prior to a contract year, which ultimately led to his departure from the Canucks. I certainly agree injuries were an issue with Pavel, but; I feel his lack of motivation was equally so. Unfortunate as it may be, that is an issue which has plagued a great many Russian snipers. (OV is definitely breaking the mould here, IMO.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    In fairness, one of his best seasons in Van., was prior to a contract year, which ultimately led to his departure from the Canucks. I certainly agree injuries were an issue with Pavel, but; I feel his lack of motivation was equally so. Unfortunate as it may be, that is an issue which has plagued a great many Russian snipers. (OV is definitely breaking the mould here, IMO.)
    Fedorov and Mogilny are the only Russian-born players close to 500 goals. There really isn't a large enough sample of Russian-born players in the NHL, yet, especially with the tumultuous transfer agreement between the NHL and the Russian leagues. I'll say that Kovalchuk plays very hard in obscurity in Atlanta. I would love to see him added to a contender (e.g. Vancouver, Pittsburgh, SJ).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Fedorov and Mogilny are the only Russian-born players close to 500 goals. There really isn't a large enough sample of Russian-born players in the NHL, yet, especially with the tumultuous transfer agreement between the NHL and the Russian leagues. I'll say that Kovalchuk plays very hard in obscurity in Atlanta. I would love to see him added to a contender (e.g. Vancouver, Pittsburgh, SJ).
    True, Russian players comprise about 3.5% of the NHL, however; the slavic countries which comprise the former U.S.S.R., and which by and large import their playing styles and philosophy from the Russian/Soviet style, comprise about 15% [these taken from NHL.com 2008].

    Kovalchuk can play hard, but he is notorious for flailing on back-checks, needlessly avoiding the body when it matters, and for being horribly streaky. IMO, he plays more or less when he wants to. (Living in Canada, we see a lot of hockey coverage from each and every team, so no team is truly obscure.) Mogilny, Fedorov [at times in his career], Kovalev, the Bure brothers, Kovalchuk and so on are [unfortunately] notorious for playing merely when it suits them. Albeit a Czech, Jagr would be the primary example of this playing "style".
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    Kovalev is about as streaky of a player as there is. His talent should dominate the league, but it's not there in the head. That is a very common trait of Soviet-born players.

    As far as Kovalchuk, playing in a horrible hockey town such as Atlanta has to drain you at some point plus Ovie really took a lot of his thunder. It's really sad because he's averaged over 42 goals per year for his career playing with a horrible cast for most of his career (Heatley flourished while in Ottawa with Spezza and Hossa is streaky).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Kovalev is about as streaky of a player as there is. His talent should dominate the league, but it's not there in the head. That is a very common trait of Soviet-born players.

    As far as Kovalchuk, playing in a horrible hockey town such as Atlanta has to drain you at some point plus Ovie really took a lot of his thunder. It's really sad because he's averaged over 42 goals per year for his career playing with a horrible cast for most of his career (Heatley flourished while in Ottawa with Spezza and Hossa is streaky).
    I know, he is ridiculous! I feel the issue is he will command too much to go to a viable team with alternate threats. Unless he goes to an organization which carefully wheels around the cap like Detroit, and/or goes the Hossa route and takes considerably less.

    To be fair, Bure and Jagr were some of my perennially favorite players growing up. it is just unfortunate that these high-profile European snipers have come to characterize themselves as lacking passion and/or dedication. IMO, Jarmoir Jagr may very well be the most talented player to ever play the game, and should own countless records! Unfortunately, that is not necessarily the case.
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    Even though im a huge PENS fan I would have to say Ovechkin is probally a little better. Hes bigger stronger faster and has a bad ass shot. But my boy Malkin has been playing pretty damn good these last couple games as well dont forget about him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wastchak View Post
    Even though im a huge PENS fan I would have to say Ovechkin is probally a little better. Hes bigger stronger faster and has a bad ass shot. But my boy Malkin has been playing pretty damn good these last couple games as well dont forget about him.
    Malkin has definitely been unconscious lately. I feel Crosby is better in literally every aspect of the game aside from open-ice hitting and snap/slap-shots, though. He certainly outshone OV in their head-to-head meeting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Malkin has definitely been unconscious lately. I feel Crosby is better in literally every aspect of the game aside from open-ice hitting and snap/slap-shots, though. He certainly outshone OV in their head-to-head meeting.
    I agree. There is more to the Game of hockey then just being able to hit and shoot.
  

  
 

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